3 ms·

Disregarding the regulation itself - the logic you describe here is that non-EU competition isn't regulated, so EU shouldn't regulate anything to be competitive

Disregarding the regulation itself - the logic you describe here is that non-EU competition isn't regulated, so EU shouldn't regulate anything to be competitive. 1- the EU didn't "miss the internet" because of regulatory policies. At least not regulations on the Internet. 2- even if that was the case, does it mean the EU should always level itself by the worst competitors? 3- and then, assuming it deregulated LLM, how would would it lead to a place where EU would suddenly becomes competitive on that market?

adastra22 3y ago
It missed the internet in the sense that it is near impossible to create an innovative (read: disruptive) internet company within the context of EU and member state regulations. So people don’t bother and entrepreneurs emigrate to the USA. It looks like the EU is preparing to miss AI as well.
- bawolff 3y ago
  There are a lot of other countries that are not EU which also have minimal big internet companies. Did all of them regulate badly too? I suspect its more the power of consolidation and first mover advantage.
  - Guillaume86 3y ago
    And having a common language across the market.
- layer8 3y ago
  I could honestly do with less disruption by internet companies.
- svetb 3y ago
  Europe “missed the Internet” (and the US didn’t) because of various underlying factors - smaller/more fragmented markets, a more muted entrepreneurial culture, shallower pools of capital, etc. I don’t think the fact that Google, Amazon, and Facebook were built in the US is down to EU regulations. It’s no more difficult to start a tech company in Europe than it is in the US, and it’s generally no more onerous to grow it, from a regulatory perspective. But ambitious entrepreneurs often head to the US in order to tap into a larger market and more developed ecosystem. So I’m not sure the analogy is that valid. But yeah, I do think that EU regulation of AI may be an additional factor that skews the playing field.
  - wyager 3y ago
    > shallower pools of capital Why do you think all the capital is allocated in the US? Because we don't smother as many companies to death > It’s no more difficult to start a tech company in Europe than it is in the US, and it’s generally no more onerous to grow it, This is an extremely bizarre claim.
  - raverbashing 3y ago
    > I don’t think the fact that Google, Amazon, and Facebook were built in the US i I'd say that even more importantly, they were born in very specific places in the US It's not like Amazon could have started in Atlanta for example. (Amazon does sound like the one that was the most distant from the academic and valley world, but MS was in Seattle first)
- quickthrower2 3y ago
  I think there is more to it. The USA has well the U and S - a homogenous enough and high population bunch of wealthy (relatively) English speaking states with similar enough laws/rules when it comes to commerce that you immediately have a large incubate market before your product can go global. This probably network effects into more funding, which creates a feedback loop, centered on the schilling point of Silicon Valley / SF etc. If I needed a $1m for an idea, I can go beg for it in Australia, UK etc. have the Dragons Den types laugh at me for not giving them 99% for $100k, or I go to the US and have a different problem - how to choose which investors to dedicate my time to, and which are wasting my time. But getting the money is not the problem.
- ffgjgf1 3y ago
  > It missed the internet in the sense that it is near impossible to create an innovative (read: disruptive) internet company within the context of EU and member state regulations Can you elaborate on that? And was this also the case in the 2000s and early 2010s?
- charles_f 3y ago
  Popped up on HN today. https://www.unite.ai/paris-based-startup-and-openai-competitor-mistral-ai-valued-at-2-billion/ https://www.unite.ai/paris-based-startup-and-openai-competit...
bluelu 3y ago
There is no fair use for copyright in Europe. That's the reason why we don't have any google here, and won't have any AI company here.
- rowanajmarshall 3y ago
  At least in the UK we do - https://www.gov.uk/guidance/exceptions-to-copyright https://www.gov.uk/guidance/exceptions-to-copyright DeepMind was also founded here, 5 years before OpenAI was.
danenania 3y ago
Some level of regulation clearly is necessary, but it's also clear that it's possible to over-regulate (or mis-regulate) to the point that your regulations become meaningless because the activity you're attempting to regulate simply stops happening due to the added burden. It's sometimes a bit hard to tell whether the EU's goal is to regulate tech in a way that still promotes its development and creates a net good for society or to just stop most development of new tech within the EU wholesale. I've strongly considered moving from the US to the EU (Spain) since there is a lot to love about the culture, but the bureaucracy and arbitrary/capricious nature of regulations make it hard to justify trying to run any kind of innovative business there unless you have enough funding to pay a team of lawyers to protect you.
- germandiago 3y ago
  As a spanish I tell you that we are drowning in regulations. Not only european, but Spain itself also. The level of taxing is also too high for the salary ranges and cost of life. It is a pitty, because I really think my country has more potential but it is terribly managed from the POV of economics. It could be way better :(
  - huytersd 3y ago
    Having visited your country, your lifestyle and quality of living is so much better than a “middle class and below” standard of living in the US. I don’t think you want to give up what you have for what we have unless you’re pretty rich.
    - germandiago 3y ago
      But we have a big debt. Health care system is not what it used to be. I think we are living a fiction and this will end up in less than a decade. We will still be spanish for our spanish things as much as we can but... I am alert of what could be coming.
      - huytersd 3y ago
seydor 3y ago
it did miss the internet, and partly thanks to uncompetitive regulation. You will not find the equivalent of gdpr that targets tourism or car manufacturing or fashion because those are large moneymakers in europe. Conversely, no large subsidies for internet or AI either. These industries don't just appear spontaneously > 3. MistralAI is a european company. It makes an unregulated open source AI and they are proud of both , it s actually part of their mission. It worked and it s becoming increasingly popular and successful. How will mistral grow to the size of openAI etc?
- shortsunblack 3y ago
  >car manufacturing Are you serious? EU regulates cars much. Majority of cars sold in U.S. cannot be imported to EU due to them failing safety regulations.
  - TheCapeGreek 3y ago
    >cars sold in U.S. cannot be imported to EU due to them failing safety regulations. This is not a bad thing. Living in the third world, there are "exclusive" cars here from big manufacturers too; but they aren't available in EU because they're 0/5 safety rated tin cans. I keep an eye out if a car is "only" sold in the global south and avoid it like the plague.
  - Nasrudith 3y ago
    I have heard of the reverse occurring as well, EU cars which need modification to be road legal and not from "steering wheel on the wrong side" issues. I believe one example were smartcars ironically failing emissions tests. The point being incompatibility may be mutual.

adastra22 3y ago

It missed the internet in the sense that it is near impossible to create an innovative (read: disruptive) internet company within the context of EU and member state regulations. So people don’t bother and entrepreneurs emigrate to the USA. It looks like the EU is preparing to miss AI as well.

bawolff 3y ago
There are a lot of other countries that are not EU which also have minimal big internet companies. Did all of them regulate badly too? I suspect its more the power of consolidation and first mover advantage.
- Guillaume86 3y ago
  And having a common language across the market.
layer8 3y ago
I could honestly do with less disruption by internet companies.
svetb 3y ago
Europe “missed the Internet” (and the US didn’t) because of various underlying factors - smaller/more fragmented markets, a more muted entrepreneurial culture, shallower pools of capital, etc. I don’t think the fact that Google, Amazon, and Facebook were built in the US is down to EU regulations. It’s no more difficult to start a tech company in Europe than it is in the US, and it’s generally no more onerous to grow it, from a regulatory perspective. But ambitious entrepreneurs often head to the US in order to tap into a larger market and more developed ecosystem. So I’m not sure the analogy is that valid. But yeah, I do think that EU regulation of AI may be an additional factor that skews the playing field.
- wyager 3y ago
  > shallower pools of capital Why do you think all the capital is allocated in the US? Because we don't smother as many companies to death > It’s no more difficult to start a tech company in Europe than it is in the US, and it’s generally no more onerous to grow it, This is an extremely bizarre claim.
- raverbashing 3y ago
  > I don’t think the fact that Google, Amazon, and Facebook were built in the US i I'd say that even more importantly, they were born in very specific places in the US It's not like Amazon could have started in Atlanta for example. (Amazon does sound like the one that was the most distant from the academic and valley world, but MS was in Seattle first)
quickthrower2 3y ago
I think there is more to it. The USA has well the U and S - a homogenous enough and high population bunch of wealthy (relatively) English speaking states with similar enough laws/rules when it comes to commerce that you immediately have a large incubate market before your product can go global. This probably network effects into more funding, which creates a feedback loop, centered on the schilling point of Silicon Valley / SF etc. If I needed a $1m for an idea, I can go beg for it in Australia, UK etc. have the Dragons Den types laugh at me for not giving them 99% for $100k, or I go to the US and have a different problem - how to choose which investors to dedicate my time to, and which are wasting my time. But getting the money is not the problem.
ffgjgf1 3y ago
> It missed the internet in the sense that it is near impossible to create an innovative (read: disruptive) internet company within the context of EU and member state regulations Can you elaborate on that? And was this also the case in the 2000s and early 2010s?
charles_f 3y ago
Popped up on HN today. https://www.unite.ai/paris-based-startup-and-openai-competitor-mistral-ai-valued-at-2-billion/ https://www.unite.ai/paris-based-startup-and-openai-competit...

bluelu 3y ago

There is no fair use for copyright in Europe. That's the reason why we don't have any google here, and won't have any AI company here.

rowanajmarshall 3y ago
At least in the UK we do - https://www.gov.uk/guidance/exceptions-to-copyright https://www.gov.uk/guidance/exceptions-to-copyright DeepMind was also founded here, 5 years before OpenAI was.

danenania 3y ago

Some level of regulation clearly is necessary, but it's also clear that it's possible to over-regulate (or mis-regulate) to the point that your regulations become meaningless because the activity you're attempting to regulate simply stops happening due to the added burden. It's sometimes a bit hard to tell whether the EU's goal is to regulate tech in a way that still promotes its development and creates a net good for society or to just stop most development of new tech within the EU wholesale. I've strongly considered moving from the US to the EU (Spain) since there is a lot to love about the culture, but the bureaucracy and arbitrary/capricious nature of regulations make it hard to justify trying to run any kind of innovative business there unless you have enough funding to pay a team of lawyers to protect you.

germandiago 3y ago
As a spanish I tell you that we are drowning in regulations. Not only european, but Spain itself also. The level of taxing is also too high for the salary ranges and cost of life. It is a pitty, because I really think my country has more potential but it is terribly managed from the POV of economics. It could be way better :(
- huytersd 3y ago
  Having visited your country, your lifestyle and quality of living is so much better than a “middle class and below” standard of living in the US. I don’t think you want to give up what you have for what we have unless you’re pretty rich.
  - germandiago 3y ago
    But we have a big debt. Health care system is not what it used to be. I think we are living a fiction and this will end up in less than a decade. We will still be spanish for our spanish things as much as we can but... I am alert of what could be coming.
    - huytersd 3y ago

seydor 3y ago

it did miss the internet, and partly thanks to uncompetitive regulation. You will not find the equivalent of gdpr that targets tourism or car manufacturing or fashion because those are large moneymakers in europe. Conversely, no large subsidies for internet or AI either. These industries don't just appear spontaneously > 3. MistralAI is a european company. It makes an unregulated open source AI and they are proud of both , it s actually part of their mission. It worked and it s becoming increasingly popular and successful. How will mistral grow to the size of openAI etc?

shortsunblack 3y ago
>car manufacturing Are you serious? EU regulates cars much. Majority of cars sold in U.S. cannot be imported to EU due to them failing safety regulations.
- TheCapeGreek 3y ago
  >cars sold in U.S. cannot be imported to EU due to them failing safety regulations. This is not a bad thing. Living in the third world, there are "exclusive" cars here from big manufacturers too; but they aren't available in EU because they're 0/5 safety rated tin cans. I keep an eye out if a car is "only" sold in the global south and avoid it like the plague.
- Nasrudith 3y ago
  I have heard of the reverse occurring as well, EU cars which need modification to be road legal and not from "steering wheel on the wrong side" issues. I believe one example were smartcars ironically failing emissions tests. The point being incompatibility may be mutual.