7 ms·

> The current legislation is bad, because it tries to regulate the technology, not how it is used. That's not what the EU regulation does. As an example, High

by phh 3y ago

> The current legislation is bad, because it tries to regulate the technology, not how it is used. That's not what the EU regulation does. As an example, High Risk Machine Translation will be regulated no matter how you do it. The standard underlying the EU's AI Act explicit mention that AI system can be anything from rule-based to machine learning and mention some other AI methods. The regulation is on task/usage not on the technology. Edit: "High Risk" in my example refers to the usage

miohtama 3y ago
Thank you for the clarification!
robertlagrant 3y ago
> AI system can be anything from rule-based to machine learning Then why call it AI?
- osullip 3y ago
  Why call anything AI? It's become commonly accepted to mean any algorithmic system. It's probably better to use an accepted umbrella term rather than multiple specific scientific ones in this case.
  - zlg_codes 3y ago
    Fuzzy and misused words are pushed to muddy the semantics. Actual AI doesn't exist. If/else, case, and while statements are basic building blocks of automation and computational logic. Intelligence is far from anything we've done with computers. It is a parlor trick looking for money right now.
    - mcpackieh 3y ago
      > Actual AI doesn't exist. The word "actual" is doing a lot of lifting there. Artificial intelligence has existed for decades. Presumably you mean "artificial general intelligence", whatever that's even supposed to mean (it's subjective, and for many people it's a matter of literal religious faith that humans have something called souls which machines can never possibly emulate, and therefore "actual AI" is literally impossible as far as they're concerned.) Well anyway... if you want to say AGI, just say AGI. AI is more general than that and the term is well established to encompass a great many methods and kinds of systems. Many kinds of AI are very primitive and seem trivial today; they are nonetheless "actual AI".
      - zlg_codes 3y ago
        I will not bend to the sloppy use of words to misrepresent technology. My words are not your putty to mold.
        osullip 3y ago
        I get what you are saying. With a technical audience, it is better to use actual terminology. However the general public does not have the knowledge to understand these. These are the people using ChatGPT and for them it is AI. We can correct them, but it's likely they won't care.
        slowmovintarget 3y ago
        The general public is being misled with overwrought appeals to emotion and misused terms applied in a deliberately overbroad manner. AI may contain algorithms but an algorithm is not AI. Social media feed algorithms are bad, and the public is awakening to the damage they cause. But they are not AI. As Yan LeCun pointed out recently, AI is actually the solution to the problems created by "algorithms."
        Tainnor 3y ago
        It's not "sloppy use of words", both the term and the practice of AI have been around for far longer than today's probabilistic models. In particular, decision trees and similar are some of the simplest forms of AI. The difference between an AI and a "regular" bunch of if/else statements is, in my opinion, the ease of adding new rules to the system. That's why something like Prolog counts as AI.
- pas 3y ago
  Intelligence is the capability to form (predictive) models (to solve problems through evaluating strategies through the aforementioned model). General intelligence is the ability to do it over an arbitrary range of problems. Even an if-else tree is a model. Building the model based on data leads to high predictive power. AI is an okay term for this IMHO.
  - yallneedtoget 3y ago
    [dead]
- mcpackieh 3y ago
  "If-else rule-based systems" aka expert systems are an example of symbolic artificial intelligence e.g. "Good Old Fashioned Artificial Intelligence". Just because it doesn't use the newest most trendy methods doesn't mean it isn't AI, and even if you object to applying the AI label to these kind of systems, these systems are nevertheless valid targets for regulation. "Good Old Fashioned Artificial Intelligence" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GOFAI https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GOFAI "In artificial intelligence, an expert system is a computer system emulating the decision-making ability of a human expert.[1] Expert systems are designed to solve complex problems by reasoning through bodies of knowledge, represented mainly as if–then rules" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expert_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expert_system "Symbolic AI used tools such as logic programming, production rules, semantic nets and frames, and it developed applications such as knowledge-based systems (in particular, expert systems), [...]" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbolic_artificial_intelligence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbolic_artificial_intelligen...
- ppaattrriicckk 3y ago
  Because "AI" is a well-established academic field, and the definition by your quoted comment is in line with this. It's a very broad umbrella term, machine (and deep) learning are only subsets - although the main drivers these days.
- drtgh 3y ago
  Marketing. An acronym with the word "statistics" would not have been able to sell the false sense of precision or superior deduction or the 'entity able to think' that is implied by putting "AI" in the sentence. Such marketing is hijacking what the general public has come to know over the past two centuries as AI through sci-fi novels and films, which now they wants to be rename to Artificial General Intelligence, AGI ? One would expect they edit all the sci-fi novels and movies around the history for to avoid the AI acronym confusion, but in such case the marketing would stop being effective, because the quid is within my first sentence, they sell the false sense of precision or superior deduction, when in fact there are only statistical models. Pure oxymoron, as statistics in itself sounds like an acronym for "lack of precision".
  - robertlagrant 3y ago
    This is sort of my point - one of the options is "rule based system". That doesn't need to be statistical at all. It doesn't look like what people would think of as AI at all. I don't see why it isn't just "you can't use computers for this" and AI is an implementation detail.
    - dkersten 3y ago
      > It doesn't look like what people would think of as AI at all. If by “people” you mean specifically the subset of people who have technical knowledge or who read HN, then sure, but in the wider population, anything that seems intelligent that’s fine by a computer is AI, they don’t care if it’s using statistical techniques, a random number generator or a bunch of conditionals. Laypeople don’t know or care what happens under the hood. I once heard a conversation between an old boss of mine and an investor where my boss was saying that the software did calculations X and Y automatically and the investor responded with “so it’s AI”. My thought was “wait what? No it’s not” but my boss said something like “AI is anything that people perceive as intelligence thats artificial”. Historically, exist systems were seen as AI and they weren’t necessarily statistics based. That’s why we have more technical terms like machine learning. But I agree, that laws should be far more specific about what they mean and “you can use a computer for this” would be better.m, if that’s what they really mean.
- FatCat1978 3y ago
  [flagged]
- Someone 3y ago
  Because that’s what it has been called since the term was coined in the 1950s. I think its meaning may be shifting, but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_learning#Artificial_intelligence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_learning#Artificial_in... still shows it as a broader term than “machine learning”, including expert systems. Also note that decision tree learning (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_tree_learning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_tree_learning) basically is a search for a good rule-based system.
- krageon 3y ago
  Because an expert system is an AI
- zulban 3y ago
  Because it's still AI. If I write a simple program "if black, no scholarship" it should still face the same regulations as the latest LLM evaluating scholarships.

by phh 3y ago

miohtama 3y ago

Thank you for the clarification!

robertlagrant 3y ago

> AI system can be anything from rule-based to machine learning Then why call it AI?

osullip 3y ago
Why call anything AI? It's become commonly accepted to mean any algorithmic system. It's probably better to use an accepted umbrella term rather than multiple specific scientific ones in this case.
- zlg_codes 3y ago
  Fuzzy and misused words are pushed to muddy the semantics. Actual AI doesn't exist. If/else, case, and while statements are basic building blocks of automation and computational logic. Intelligence is far from anything we've done with computers. It is a parlor trick looking for money right now.
  - mcpackieh 3y ago
    > Actual AI doesn't exist. The word "actual" is doing a lot of lifting there. Artificial intelligence has existed for decades. Presumably you mean "artificial general intelligence", whatever that's even supposed to mean (it's subjective, and for many people it's a matter of literal religious faith that humans have something called souls which machines can never possibly emulate, and therefore "actual AI" is literally impossible as far as they're concerned.) Well anyway... if you want to say AGI, just say AGI. AI is more general than that and the term is well established to encompass a great many methods and kinds of systems. Many kinds of AI are very primitive and seem trivial today; they are nonetheless "actual AI".
    - zlg_codes 3y ago
      I will not bend to the sloppy use of words to misrepresent technology. My words are not your putty to mold.
      - osullip 3y ago
        I get what you are saying. With a technical audience, it is better to use actual terminology. However the general public does not have the knowledge to understand these. These are the people using ChatGPT and for them it is AI. We can correct them, but it's likely they won't care.
        slowmovintarget 3y ago
        The general public is being misled with overwrought appeals to emotion and misused terms applied in a deliberately overbroad manner. AI may contain algorithms but an algorithm is not AI. Social media feed algorithms are bad, and the public is awakening to the damage they cause. But they are not AI. As Yan LeCun pointed out recently, AI is actually the solution to the problems created by "algorithms."
      - Tainnor 3y ago
        It's not "sloppy use of words", both the term and the practice of AI have been around for far longer than today's probabilistic models. In particular, decision trees and similar are some of the simplest forms of AI. The difference between an AI and a "regular" bunch of if/else statements is, in my opinion, the ease of adding new rules to the system. That's why something like Prolog counts as AI.
pas 3y ago
Intelligence is the capability to form (predictive) models (to solve problems through evaluating strategies through the aforementioned model). General intelligence is the ability to do it over an arbitrary range of problems. Even an if-else tree is a model. Building the model based on data leads to high predictive power. AI is an okay term for this IMHO.
- yallneedtoget 3y ago
  [dead]
mcpackieh 3y ago
"If-else rule-based systems" aka expert systems are an example of symbolic artificial intelligence e.g. "Good Old Fashioned Artificial Intelligence". Just because it doesn't use the newest most trendy methods doesn't mean it isn't AI, and even if you object to applying the AI label to these kind of systems, these systems are nevertheless valid targets for regulation. "Good Old Fashioned Artificial Intelligence" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GOFAI https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GOFAI "In artificial intelligence, an expert system is a computer system emulating the decision-making ability of a human expert.[1] Expert systems are designed to solve complex problems by reasoning through bodies of knowledge, represented mainly as if–then rules" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expert_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expert_system "Symbolic AI used tools such as logic programming, production rules, semantic nets and frames, and it developed applications such as knowledge-based systems (in particular, expert systems), [...]" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbolic_artificial_intelligence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbolic_artificial_intelligen...
ppaattrriicckk 3y ago
Because "AI" is a well-established academic field, and the definition by your quoted comment is in line with this. It's a very broad umbrella term, machine (and deep) learning are only subsets - although the main drivers these days.
drtgh 3y ago
Marketing. An acronym with the word "statistics" would not have been able to sell the false sense of precision or superior deduction or the 'entity able to think' that is implied by putting "AI" in the sentence. Such marketing is hijacking what the general public has come to know over the past two centuries as AI through sci-fi novels and films, which now they wants to be rename to Artificial General Intelligence, AGI ? One would expect they edit all the sci-fi novels and movies around the history for to avoid the AI acronym confusion, but in such case the marketing would stop being effective, because the quid is within my first sentence, they sell the false sense of precision or superior deduction, when in fact there are only statistical models. Pure oxymoron, as statistics in itself sounds like an acronym for "lack of precision".
- robertlagrant 3y ago
  This is sort of my point - one of the options is "rule based system". That doesn't need to be statistical at all. It doesn't look like what people would think of as AI at all. I don't see why it isn't just "you can't use computers for this" and AI is an implementation detail.
  - dkersten 3y ago
    > It doesn't look like what people would think of as AI at all. If by “people” you mean specifically the subset of people who have technical knowledge or who read HN, then sure, but in the wider population, anything that seems intelligent that’s fine by a computer is AI, they don’t care if it’s using statistical techniques, a random number generator or a bunch of conditionals. Laypeople don’t know or care what happens under the hood. I once heard a conversation between an old boss of mine and an investor where my boss was saying that the software did calculations X and Y automatically and the investor responded with “so it’s AI”. My thought was “wait what? No it’s not” but my boss said something like “AI is anything that people perceive as intelligence thats artificial”. Historically, exist systems were seen as AI and they weren’t necessarily statistics based. That’s why we have more technical terms like machine learning. But I agree, that laws should be far more specific about what they mean and “you can use a computer for this” would be better.m, if that’s what they really mean.
FatCat1978 3y ago
[flagged]
Someone 3y ago
Because that’s what it has been called since the term was coined in the 1950s. I think its meaning may be shifting, but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_learning#Artificial_intelligence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_learning#Artificial_in... still shows it as a broader term than “machine learning”, including expert systems. Also note that decision tree learning (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_tree_learning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_tree_learning) basically is a search for a good rule-based system.
krageon 3y ago
Because an expert system is an AI
zulban 3y ago
Because it's still AI. If I write a simple program "if black, no scholarship" it should still face the same regulations as the latest LLM evaluating scholarships.