7 ms·

It's 100% normal and it's an open secret that every country's embassy doubles as an intelligence headquarters. Every country spies on every other country. All

It's 100% normal and it's an open secret that every country's embassy doubles as an intelligence headquarters. Every country spies on every other country. Allies spy on allies. What was unusual here is how clumsy they were and that they got caught doing something so dumb that Spain couldn't quietly sweep it under the rug.

MichaelZuo 3y ago
I'm pretty sure the Australian and New Zealand governments don't try to do so against each other.
- tjpnz 3y ago
  Both are members of Five Eyes and one is in bed with China. It would make sense for Australia to be keeping an eye on things.
- jl6 3y ago
  Does spying have to be “against” the target? Perhaps allies spy on each other to make sure they are still allies.
  - MichaelZuo 3y ago
    I highly doubt the opposite party would even want to be allies if their promises mean nothing and it takes the reports of moles to create trust in their sincerity. It seems like a self-defeating exercise.
    - fortzi 3y ago
      Alliance is not about love and trust. It’s about interests. Indeed, for an alliance to be possible, trust is needed, but only to a certain extent. Don’t mistake alliance for friendship. The former is between political entities, while the latter is between people.
      - MichaelZuo 3y ago
        A bonafide alliance must necessarily entail sometimes acting faithfully even to the detriment of one's interests. If the 'allies' are only faithful and only believe each other until the moment that threshold is crossed then it's just regular diplomatic relations. e.g. Nearly every country cooperates with nearly every other country on such terms in the areas where they share bonafide mutual interests.
impossiblefork 3y ago
No, it's not at all normal-- when directed at the government of the target country it can be a threat to the sovereignty of that country. After all, the expulsions are happening for a reason. The Spanish clearly do not see it as you do. It might be possible for the US to avoid many consequences of this kind of thing due to its clout, and I can see that as something which would make it feel normal from a US point of view, but from the other side I imagine that it feels like someone trying to infiltrate your government to do things against your interests and to harm you-- something warranting a very high level of concern, comparable to a planned coup.
- hulitu 3y ago
  > it can be a threat to the sovereignty of that country. Those countries are already not souverane anymore. Notice how the external, and even internal politics of those countries are dictated by the US ?
- networkchad 3y ago
  [dead]
- ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
  As many are now informing you, yes, it is normal, as is PNG-ing spies whose diplomatic cover is blown. It's so normal that the term "diplomatic cover" exists to describe non-clandestine spies who are given a position in their country's embassy. More commonly, local intelligence agencies try to identify and follow the spying activity of spies with diplomatic cover, rather than PNG-ing them (or more rarely, as in this case, outing them) because that's easier than the unknown quantity that would replace them.
  - impossiblefork 3y ago
    Yes, that part is indeed very normal. But the fact that the country is a formal ally makes it, in my view at least, slightly different. Of course, seeing as the US is in a defence pact with Turkey, I can understand that being ally can't mean absolute non-interference, but I feel that it gets problematic when we're talking about actual infiltration of a country's security services. I think at least the Germans expected some restraint. I suppose if one thinks back, the Germans had a different view, being opposed to giving Turkey bad crypto; and I suppose that can be seen as them restraining their activities in an unreasonable way, at the same time, I can't accept that bribing/blackmail people on the other side is compatible with an alliance. Rather, with enough bribes/blackmail the result is a secret coup of the state whose personnel is being bribed or blackmailed, and I think if you view these things as 'normal' then you might even be blind to such a coup against yourself.

MichaelZuo 3y ago

I'm pretty sure the Australian and New Zealand governments don't try to do so against each other.

tjpnz 3y ago
Both are members of Five Eyes and one is in bed with China. It would make sense for Australia to be keeping an eye on things.
jl6 3y ago
Does spying have to be “against” the target? Perhaps allies spy on each other to make sure they are still allies.
- MichaelZuo 3y ago
  I highly doubt the opposite party would even want to be allies if their promises mean nothing and it takes the reports of moles to create trust in their sincerity. It seems like a self-defeating exercise.
  - fortzi 3y ago
    Alliance is not about love and trust. It’s about interests. Indeed, for an alliance to be possible, trust is needed, but only to a certain extent. Don’t mistake alliance for friendship. The former is between political entities, while the latter is between people.
    - MichaelZuo 3y ago
      A bonafide alliance must necessarily entail sometimes acting faithfully even to the detriment of one's interests. If the 'allies' are only faithful and only believe each other until the moment that threshold is crossed then it's just regular diplomatic relations. e.g. Nearly every country cooperates with nearly every other country on such terms in the areas where they share bonafide mutual interests.

impossiblefork 3y ago

No, it's not at all normal-- when directed at the government of the target country it can be a threat to the sovereignty of that country. After all, the expulsions are happening for a reason. The Spanish clearly do not see it as you do. It might be possible for the US to avoid many consequences of this kind of thing due to its clout, and I can see that as something which would make it feel normal from a US point of view, but from the other side I imagine that it feels like someone trying to infiltrate your government to do things against your interests and to harm you-- something warranting a very high level of concern, comparable to a planned coup.

hulitu 3y ago
> it can be a threat to the sovereignty of that country. Those countries are already not souverane anymore. Notice how the external, and even internal politics of those countries are dictated by the US ?
networkchad 3y ago
[dead]
ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
As many are now informing you, yes, it is normal, as is PNG-ing spies whose diplomatic cover is blown. It's so normal that the term "diplomatic cover" exists to describe non-clandestine spies who are given a position in their country's embassy. More commonly, local intelligence agencies try to identify and follow the spying activity of spies with diplomatic cover, rather than PNG-ing them (or more rarely, as in this case, outing them) because that's easier than the unknown quantity that would replace them.
- impossiblefork 3y ago
  Yes, that part is indeed very normal. But the fact that the country is a formal ally makes it, in my view at least, slightly different. Of course, seeing as the US is in a defence pact with Turkey, I can understand that being ally can't mean absolute non-interference, but I feel that it gets problematic when we're talking about actual infiltration of a country's security services. I think at least the Germans expected some restraint. I suppose if one thinks back, the Germans had a different view, being opposed to giving Turkey bad crypto; and I suppose that can be seen as them restraining their activities in an unreasonable way, at the same time, I can't accept that bribing/blackmail people on the other side is compatible with an alliance. Rather, with enough bribes/blackmail the result is a secret coup of the state whose personnel is being bribed or blackmailed, and I think if you view these things as 'normal' then you might even be blind to such a coup against yourself.