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No, and it isn't normal at all. Notice that this has literally led to the expulsion of diplomats, or, I suppose, spies sent out under diplomatic cover. That's

No, and it isn't normal at all. Notice that this has literally led to the expulsion of diplomats, or, I suppose, spies sent out under diplomatic cover. That's extremely unusual between allies. Spying on allies, trying to bribe or blackmail their personnel etc., is not normal. It makes you a security threat, and making oneself a security threat isn't really compatible with being allies. Presumably this is why there is now this very public declaring of diplomats persona non grata-- both to remove the people in question and to signal that what has been done isn't okay. Seen another way-- normally, the person who becomes persona non grata is a Russian.

appleskeptic 3y ago
Wrong, allies spy on each other constantly.
- impossiblefork 3y ago
  When did the US last expel a French, or Spanish or German diplomat? I'm pretty sure it's never happened during the NATO era. So either these countries don't use diplomatic cover or they don't spy on the US.
  - roenxi 3y ago
    Why would the US bother? Unless they propose not to engage in diplomacy, the replacement diplomat is going to spy on them too. It isn't like these are rogue actors, the spying is sponsored by their state. The only reason to even talk about it would be if they want to roll a particular diplomat who is hard to work with or if it was convenient to gin up a diplomatic incident so that they could pretend to be unhappy.
    - impossiblefork 3y ago
      The US does expel diplomats who engage in spying. For example, in 2022 they expelled twelve for spying in ways that threaten US national security. Even if you try to keep an eye they will of course try make keeping an eye on them difficult. The US feels it can spy-- with people having been found with wigs and whatnot, so to imagine that others can't, even if they are allowed to do things very freely is a little bit strange.
      - roenxi 3y ago
        When you say "in 2022" do you mean the ones listed on this page [0]? The "Diplomatic expulsions during the Russo-Ukrainian War" page? I'm sensing there might have been issues at play other than the espionage, which is routine and everyone does. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_expulsions_during_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_expulsions_during_t...
        impossiblefork 3y ago
        Notice though that the US specifically chose to give a reason for the explusions as espionage activities. Spain expelled those it expelled over 'Russia's terrible actions'. I think we can take the reasons for the expulsions as correct.
        roenxi 3y ago
        The reasons are honest insofar as yes, the Russians expelled were involved in espionage. That part that has me tagging you as naive is you seem to believe that this was news in 2022. It is the Russian embassy. The US spooks are monitoring it very closely. It is not a serious position to say that they suddenly discovered that espionage was afoot a few days after the invasion. I mean, it is completely plausible that the invasion made them say "we're about to hit the Russians hard, now is the time to disrupt their espionage activities". But the existence of those espionage activities has been a given since for the entire history of Russian diplomatic missions in the US. The US is certainly not going to expel diplomats for spying under ordinary circumstances. We can see that because places like the Chinese, French and British and whatever other embassies are still allowed to exist. Maybe there are some African or Pacific Island embassies that are incompetent and just exist to chat, I dunno. But we know how the serious players use embassies this has been a thing for centuries.
  - empath-nirvana 3y ago
    The US doesn't expel allied diplomats, because they don't care if the French and Spanish and Germans are spying on us, _in general_. Most of the time countries get annoyed at allied spying, they'll make some quiet calls to their ally and have people quietly reassigned, rather than make a big deal about it. As long as the country knows who the allied spies are, that's good enough. What happened here is that the US spies were very clumsy and got caught committing crimes.
  - halJordan 3y ago
    You're asking to prove a state secret. That the spanish were caught expelling allied spies is almost as much a faux pas as it is for your spies to get caught. Also so t forget literally the entire Snowden era. Literally the biggest event geopolitical event between allies in the 2010s. I swear you guys choose to forget these things
    - impossiblefork 3y ago
      'Caught expelling'? The US tried to infiltrate Spanish state security. That's a direct threat to Spanish sovereignty. Imagine if they had succeeded and it led to a manipulation of Spanish policy, against the interests of the Spanish people. It is really something incredibly bad.
      - brabel 3y ago
        What can Spain realistically do if the USA actually becomes hostile to it? The whole EU has already relinquished its full sovereignty a long time ago. The USA does as it wants and at most, the EU can expell some spies caught in the act as quietly as possible to not anger Big Uncle Sam.
        impossiblefork 3y ago
        A lot. There are many countries to which the US is actually hostile, and which are much weaker than Spain. Venezuela, Cuba, etc. Places like Russia and China also of course exist. Spain could start trying to compete with the US in South America, they could push some kind of EU South America expansion, some kind of EU analogue of BRICS-for-South-America-but-not-BRICS; and of course, if it truly became a problem they could decide to go much further than that and start being actually hostile themselves, joining with the whole RIC part of the thing.
        brabel 3y ago
        > some kind of EU analogue of BRICS-for-South-America-but-not-BRICS; I suppose you don't know this already exits (and has for decades), it's called Mercosul[1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercosur https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercosur
empath-nirvana 3y ago
It's 100% normal and it's an open secret that every country's embassy doubles as an intelligence headquarters. Every country spies on every other country. Allies spy on allies. What was unusual here is how clumsy they were and that they got caught doing something so dumb that Spain couldn't quietly sweep it under the rug.
- MichaelZuo 3y ago
  I'm pretty sure the Australian and New Zealand governments don't try to do so against each other.
  - tjpnz 3y ago
    Both are members of Five Eyes and one is in bed with China. It would make sense for Australia to be keeping an eye on things.
  - jl6 3y ago
    Does spying have to be “against” the target? Perhaps allies spy on each other to make sure they are still allies.
    - MichaelZuo 3y ago
      I highly doubt the opposite party would even want to be allies if their promises mean nothing and it takes the reports of moles to create trust in their sincerity. It seems like a self-defeating exercise.
      - fortzi 3y ago
        Alliance is not about love and trust. It’s about interests. Indeed, for an alliance to be possible, trust is needed, but only to a certain extent. Don’t mistake alliance for friendship. The former is between political entities, while the latter is between people.
        3y ago
schainks 3y ago
[flagged]
cma 3y ago
Snowden leaks showed it is normal and coordinated between countries to bypass their citizens' procedural rights. Among the Five Eyes countries, they each needed warrants to spy on their own domestic communications, but each could spy freely on foreign countries. They then mutually spied on each other and by agreement shared the intelligence, bypassing the warrant process.
karaterobot 3y ago
Spying on allies, and all that espionage entails—including bribery and blackmail—is done by every government in the world. It has always been done, and will continue to be forever. It is absolutely par for the course. Remember that ally does not mean friend, and that friend doesn't even really mean friend in the context of international relations and realpolitik.
- torcete 3y ago
  I wanted to write something similar, but you did a much better job!
Paradigma11 3y ago
It is completely normal. I once read an interview with a, I think french diplomat who commented on this that it is as important to know what your allies do and think as your enemies.
- unaindz 3y ago
  From the article: "The case is a very serious matter, since recruiting secret agents of a host state to betray their own country is considered an openly hostile act. Such actions may be taken with enemy or adversary governments, but never with friends and allies."

appleskeptic 3y ago

Wrong, allies spy on each other constantly.

impossiblefork 3y ago
When did the US last expel a French, or Spanish or German diplomat? I'm pretty sure it's never happened during the NATO era. So either these countries don't use diplomatic cover or they don't spy on the US.
- roenxi 3y ago
  Why would the US bother? Unless they propose not to engage in diplomacy, the replacement diplomat is going to spy on them too. It isn't like these are rogue actors, the spying is sponsored by their state. The only reason to even talk about it would be if they want to roll a particular diplomat who is hard to work with or if it was convenient to gin up a diplomatic incident so that they could pretend to be unhappy.
  - impossiblefork 3y ago
    The US does expel diplomats who engage in spying. For example, in 2022 they expelled twelve for spying in ways that threaten US national security. Even if you try to keep an eye they will of course try make keeping an eye on them difficult. The US feels it can spy-- with people having been found with wigs and whatnot, so to imagine that others can't, even if they are allowed to do things very freely is a little bit strange.
    - roenxi 3y ago
      When you say "in 2022" do you mean the ones listed on this page [0]? The "Diplomatic expulsions during the Russo-Ukrainian War" page? I'm sensing there might have been issues at play other than the espionage, which is routine and everyone does. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_expulsions_during_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_expulsions_during_t...
      - impossiblefork 3y ago
        Notice though that the US specifically chose to give a reason for the explusions as espionage activities. Spain expelled those it expelled over 'Russia's terrible actions'. I think we can take the reasons for the expulsions as correct.
        roenxi 3y ago
        The reasons are honest insofar as yes, the Russians expelled were involved in espionage. That part that has me tagging you as naive is you seem to believe that this was news in 2022. It is the Russian embassy. The US spooks are monitoring it very closely. It is not a serious position to say that they suddenly discovered that espionage was afoot a few days after the invasion. I mean, it is completely plausible that the invasion made them say "we're about to hit the Russians hard, now is the time to disrupt their espionage activities". But the existence of those espionage activities has been a given since for the entire history of Russian diplomatic missions in the US. The US is certainly not going to expel diplomats for spying under ordinary circumstances. We can see that because places like the Chinese, French and British and whatever other embassies are still allowed to exist. Maybe there are some African or Pacific Island embassies that are incompetent and just exist to chat, I dunno. But we know how the serious players use embassies this has been a thing for centuries.
- empath-nirvana 3y ago
  The US doesn't expel allied diplomats, because they don't care if the French and Spanish and Germans are spying on us, _in general_. Most of the time countries get annoyed at allied spying, they'll make some quiet calls to their ally and have people quietly reassigned, rather than make a big deal about it. As long as the country knows who the allied spies are, that's good enough. What happened here is that the US spies were very clumsy and got caught committing crimes.
- halJordan 3y ago
  You're asking to prove a state secret. That the spanish were caught expelling allied spies is almost as much a faux pas as it is for your spies to get caught. Also so t forget literally the entire Snowden era. Literally the biggest event geopolitical event between allies in the 2010s. I swear you guys choose to forget these things
  - impossiblefork 3y ago
    'Caught expelling'? The US tried to infiltrate Spanish state security. That's a direct threat to Spanish sovereignty. Imagine if they had succeeded and it led to a manipulation of Spanish policy, against the interests of the Spanish people. It is really something incredibly bad.
    - brabel 3y ago
      What can Spain realistically do if the USA actually becomes hostile to it? The whole EU has already relinquished its full sovereignty a long time ago. The USA does as it wants and at most, the EU can expell some spies caught in the act as quietly as possible to not anger Big Uncle Sam.
      - impossiblefork 3y ago
        A lot. There are many countries to which the US is actually hostile, and which are much weaker than Spain. Venezuela, Cuba, etc. Places like Russia and China also of course exist. Spain could start trying to compete with the US in South America, they could push some kind of EU South America expansion, some kind of EU analogue of BRICS-for-South-America-but-not-BRICS; and of course, if it truly became a problem they could decide to go much further than that and start being actually hostile themselves, joining with the whole RIC part of the thing.
        brabel 3y ago
        > some kind of EU analogue of BRICS-for-South-America-but-not-BRICS; I suppose you don't know this already exits (and has for decades), it's called Mercosul[1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercosur https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercosur

empath-nirvana 3y ago

It's 100% normal and it's an open secret that every country's embassy doubles as an intelligence headquarters. Every country spies on every other country. Allies spy on allies. What was unusual here is how clumsy they were and that they got caught doing something so dumb that Spain couldn't quietly sweep it under the rug.

MichaelZuo 3y ago
I'm pretty sure the Australian and New Zealand governments don't try to do so against each other.
- tjpnz 3y ago
  Both are members of Five Eyes and one is in bed with China. It would make sense for Australia to be keeping an eye on things.
- jl6 3y ago
  Does spying have to be “against” the target? Perhaps allies spy on each other to make sure they are still allies.
  - MichaelZuo 3y ago
    I highly doubt the opposite party would even want to be allies if their promises mean nothing and it takes the reports of moles to create trust in their sincerity. It seems like a self-defeating exercise.
    - fortzi 3y ago
      Alliance is not about love and trust. It’s about interests. Indeed, for an alliance to be possible, trust is needed, but only to a certain extent. Don’t mistake alliance for friendship. The former is between political entities, while the latter is between people.
      - 3y ago

schainks 3y ago

[flagged]

cma 3y ago

Snowden leaks showed it is normal and coordinated between countries to bypass their citizens' procedural rights. Among the Five Eyes countries, they each needed warrants to spy on their own domestic communications, but each could spy freely on foreign countries. They then mutually spied on each other and by agreement shared the intelligence, bypassing the warrant process.

karaterobot 3y ago

Spying on allies, and all that espionage entails—including bribery and blackmail—is done by every government in the world. It has always been done, and will continue to be forever. It is absolutely par for the course. Remember that ally does not mean friend, and that friend doesn't even really mean friend in the context of international relations and realpolitik.

torcete 3y ago
I wanted to write something similar, but you did a much better job!

Paradigma11 3y ago

It is completely normal. I once read an interview with a, I think french diplomat who commented on this that it is as important to know what your allies do and think as your enemies.

unaindz 3y ago
From the article: "The case is a very serious matter, since recruiting secret agents of a host state to betray their own country is considered an openly hostile act. Such actions may be taken with enemy or adversary governments, but never with friends and allies."