7 ms·

What if I say "I spent a lot of time on my appearance, if you look at me you should pay". Do I have the right to bill anybody making eye contact?

WendyTheWillow 3y ago
Contrived and distinct situation; you agree to the terms when you license the song.
- TheMode 3y ago
  So if we encouraged people to make such terms to help with their end of month, looking at people would become immoral? Pieces of paper/text shouldn't be able to dictate what is moral outside of common sense. The world I describe above would become a worse place for everybody. Here, the problem is that the artist put a lot of time into making the song because there is the expectation of that term and the ability to extract money out of it. Without this expectation, none of it would feel immoral for either of both side.
  - WendyTheWillow 3y ago
    Nope, you keep forgetting the key ingredient; the "lookers" would need to agree to this arrangement in the first place. None of these things are foisted upon people without their consent, as you keep trying to claim. You agree to terms when you buy a copy of a work, both implicit and explicit, that forbit its further distribution.
    - TheMode 3y ago
      It could be part of Meta ToS. Saying that all your friends are allowed to ask payment for eye contact. Hopefully you read it already. Consent is a really hard thing to guarantee. You have already lost. There is no moral stance to have here, its all made up agreement.
      - WendyTheWillow 3y ago
        Nope, it could not be part of Meta's ToS, and consent is not hard to guarantee, when you have a specific moment of transaction. And you can claim I've "lost", but you have no justification for it.
- paavope 3y ago
  If I download a song from, let’s say, The Pirate Bay, I never agree to any terms. Futher, it’s debatable whether clicking “I agree” on a pages-long EULA where there is no realistic expectation that people actually read the text, is really agreement.
  - aranelsurion 3y ago
    I also take issue with "you've agreed to the contract" arguments in general, if the contract is between one individual vs. an entire organization, or usually collection of organizations. There's such a high power imbalance there that I find it intellectually dishonest to say that it is a free-willing contract between two entities. In my decades of Internet use, I haven't once set a single clause on a contract I've "agreed to" with a service. Those agreements were always even more one-sided than Treaty of Versailles, and the upper limit of how far they'd push was almost always what the local regulations permitted. Therefore I ask, can you exist on this digital world without ever accepting one EULA in your life? or moving the goal post: can you exist on this world without accepting one-sided agreements, like, all the time? It's not an agreement if you had no real choice to begin with.
    - WendyTheWillow 3y ago
      It's just as immoral to steal from Big MegaCorp as it is to steal from Joe Random, especially when what you're stealing is entirely frivolous and not in any way required for your life or even happiness. The insidious nature of piracy is that it's so completely unnecessary. There are no "but I'm starving" kind of arguments to be had here.
      - TheMode 3y ago
        You are acting like entertainment exists in a vacuum. You go about your day, consume some movie, then go back to your life as if nothing happened. In practice, new entertainment entices more people into consuming it. For example lets say your group of friend suddenly became huge fan of some unknown show, you didn't see it but they keep talking about it for days. You then notice that it costs $500. You indeed have the choice to not watch it, its not like you ever felt the need to before it has been mentioned to you, but won't you? This example is a bit excessive but these kind of events happen all ever the case for entertainment that cost a fraction of it. The problem is that it stacks up. As for your immoral accusation, its perfectly fine if you think this way, but I also believe that it is perfectly fine to think the opposite way. The only things companies can lose from piracy are potential sales, and ultimately if people aren't willing to pay for it I believe that it is fine for the company to shut down. Why should they be forced to pay for something they can access without causing any harm?
- greenie_beans 3y ago
  was forced into the agreement based on laws i never agreed with. anyway, y'all are talking about ethics not laws so your point is invalid.
  - WendyTheWillow 3y ago
    Nobody here is discussing laws except as an outline of expectations of the social contract.
    - greenie_beans 3y ago
      you said this: > you agree to the terms when you license the song. that agreement is a law, no?
      - WendyTheWillow 3y ago
        Nope.
        greenie_beans 3y ago
        lol ok then what is copyright agreement if not a bunch of laws?
        WendyTheWillow 3y ago
        You said it; an agreement.
        greenie_beans 3y ago
        have u ever seen this meme? https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/complex/images/bdnkabiqxpxmxzmcaluz/spider-man-meme.jpg?output-format=jpg&output-quality=auto https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/complex/images/bdnk...
        3y ago

WendyTheWillow 3y ago

Contrived and distinct situation; you agree to the terms when you license the song.

TheMode 3y ago
So if we encouraged people to make such terms to help with their end of month, looking at people would become immoral? Pieces of paper/text shouldn't be able to dictate what is moral outside of common sense. The world I describe above would become a worse place for everybody. Here, the problem is that the artist put a lot of time into making the song because there is the expectation of that term and the ability to extract money out of it. Without this expectation, none of it would feel immoral for either of both side.
- WendyTheWillow 3y ago
  Nope, you keep forgetting the key ingredient; the "lookers" would need to agree to this arrangement in the first place. None of these things are foisted upon people without their consent, as you keep trying to claim. You agree to terms when you buy a copy of a work, both implicit and explicit, that forbit its further distribution.
  - TheMode 3y ago
    It could be part of Meta ToS. Saying that all your friends are allowed to ask payment for eye contact. Hopefully you read it already. Consent is a really hard thing to guarantee. You have already lost. There is no moral stance to have here, its all made up agreement.
    - WendyTheWillow 3y ago
      Nope, it could not be part of Meta's ToS, and consent is not hard to guarantee, when you have a specific moment of transaction. And you can claim I've "lost", but you have no justification for it.
paavope 3y ago
If I download a song from, let’s say, The Pirate Bay, I never agree to any terms. Futher, it’s debatable whether clicking “I agree” on a pages-long EULA where there is no realistic expectation that people actually read the text, is really agreement.
- aranelsurion 3y ago
  I also take issue with "you've agreed to the contract" arguments in general, if the contract is between one individual vs. an entire organization, or usually collection of organizations. There's such a high power imbalance there that I find it intellectually dishonest to say that it is a free-willing contract between two entities. In my decades of Internet use, I haven't once set a single clause on a contract I've "agreed to" with a service. Those agreements were always even more one-sided than Treaty of Versailles, and the upper limit of how far they'd push was almost always what the local regulations permitted. Therefore I ask, can you exist on this digital world without ever accepting one EULA in your life? or moving the goal post: can you exist on this world without accepting one-sided agreements, like, all the time? It's not an agreement if you had no real choice to begin with.
  - WendyTheWillow 3y ago
    It's just as immoral to steal from Big MegaCorp as it is to steal from Joe Random, especially when what you're stealing is entirely frivolous and not in any way required for your life or even happiness. The insidious nature of piracy is that it's so completely unnecessary. There are no "but I'm starving" kind of arguments to be had here.
    - TheMode 3y ago
      You are acting like entertainment exists in a vacuum. You go about your day, consume some movie, then go back to your life as if nothing happened. In practice, new entertainment entices more people into consuming it. For example lets say your group of friend suddenly became huge fan of some unknown show, you didn't see it but they keep talking about it for days. You then notice that it costs $500. You indeed have the choice to not watch it, its not like you ever felt the need to before it has been mentioned to you, but won't you? This example is a bit excessive but these kind of events happen all ever the case for entertainment that cost a fraction of it. The problem is that it stacks up. As for your immoral accusation, its perfectly fine if you think this way, but I also believe that it is perfectly fine to think the opposite way. The only things companies can lose from piracy are potential sales, and ultimately if people aren't willing to pay for it I believe that it is fine for the company to shut down. Why should they be forced to pay for something they can access without causing any harm?
greenie_beans 3y ago
was forced into the agreement based on laws i never agreed with. anyway, y'all are talking about ethics not laws so your point is invalid.
- WendyTheWillow 3y ago
  Nobody here is discussing laws except as an outline of expectations of the social contract.
  - greenie_beans 3y ago
    you said this: > you agree to the terms when you license the song. that agreement is a law, no?
    - WendyTheWillow 3y ago
      Nope.
      - greenie_beans 3y ago
        lol ok then what is copyright agreement if not a bunch of laws?
        WendyTheWillow 3y ago
        You said it; an agreement.
        greenie_beans 3y ago
        have u ever seen this meme? https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/complex/images/bdnkabiqxpxmxzmcaluz/spider-man-meme.jpg?output-format=jpg&output-quality=auto https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/complex/images/bdnk...
        3y ago