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How can a student not participate in the use of the ill-gotten goods of textbooks for their studies? For a researcher in a developing country for research paper

How can a student not participate in the use of the ill-gotten goods of textbooks for their studies? For a researcher in a developing country for research papers? Nobody dies, but a lot of people fall behind. It doesn't beg the question when it's so obvious which industries have abused copyright law, gained over 100% in profits, and manipulated the market to gain absolute control over what is offered. Of course, pirating an indie band's song is a lot more in the questionable area (and not done nearly as often, since piracy by nature focuses on the more necessary/popular products) but that's not what's under discussion.

WendyTheWillow 3y ago
Yes, the piracy is an indie song is precisely what’s under discussion.
- j_maffe 3y ago
  Piracy is so much more than that. If that is your concern you should specify it. Even then the morality is still debatable but in my view discussion of it is a distraction from the bigger issues.
  - WendyTheWillow 3y ago
    And in my view, the casual nature of piracy enabling the breakdown of the social contract is one of the many things tearing society apart, so to me it’s pretty important.
    - justinclift 3y ago
      > to me it’s pretty important. What other things do you feel are "tearing society apart", and how important are they to you compared to this?
    - atq2119 3y ago
      Societies are usual torn apart from the top, because that's where there are people with power to make impactful decisions.
    - hyperman1 3y ago
      If people break a law so easily, it can't be part of a social contract, because the people don't support it. IP, and specifically copyright are fairly new legal additions. The redefinition of time limited copyright to something extending past normal lifetimes especially so. EULAs and DRM enforcing copyright beyond book-style possibilities is new, and ongoing as we speak. I'd say we see the public at large rejecting part of the law because it is not consistent with the social contract in their heads. Powerfull entities trying to force the law outside the social contract's support is working, but not completely, and that's what's tearing society apart.
      - WendyTheWillow 3y ago
        Except people don't stick to pirating old works, a huge "scene" exists to get the latest and greatest episodes and movies out to the masses via piracy. You bring up an exception, which may be different! But it is an exception. The general rule of piracy is that it's immoral, however.
        hyperman1 3y ago
        Are you sure you're replying to the right comment? Nothing I said promotes pirating some categories only. The line of reasoning is that copyright falls outside current social contracts. So the general rule of piracy is that it is illegal but amoral. Morality of copyright violations should be determined by other criteria.
        WendyTheWillow 3y ago
        Your argument is effectively an ad populum, so I tried to address the parts that could be salvaged. What people do doesn't define what is right or wrong, nor is that how the social contract operates. Besides, the fact that piracy is rampant is a demonstration of copyright's necessity. If the works were so worthless that trying to charge for their consumption would be pointless, then why are so many people determined to illicitly gain access? And if the works would be made anyway, why weren't they until it was profitable to do so? The argument you're making dies on a number of fronts, but the one I tried to address originally was the only legitimate line of inquiry. Your ad populum redefinition of the social contract doesn't work, as what is good/bad doesn't get voted on or collectively decided. The best rational argument is what wins in an ethics conversation.
gary_0 3y ago
A poor kid who can't participate in culture arguably endures more harm than whatever harm might be caused by copyright infringement.
vasco 3y ago
> Nobody dies Yes they do. Copyright and patent trade agreements kill and they kill a lot people. If anyone is interested in the topic, a good first entry point paper to understand how this works and impacts: > "What is the impact of intellectual property rules on access to medicines? A systematic review" > "With very few exceptions, the articles in this review found that the introduction of patents following implementation of TRIPS rules and pharmaceutical-related TRIPS-plus IP provisions are associated with an increase in drug prices, consumer welfare losses and increased costs to consumers of pharmaceuticals and national governments." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9013034/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9013034/ This paper alone should probably get you depressed, but if that gets you going, read "Information Feudalism" by Peter Drahos, then you'll understand how people in power truly have no respect for human lives in developing countries.
johnnyanmac 3y ago
>How can a student not participate in the use of the ill-gotten goods of textbooks for their studies? rent from the library, ask for a friend's copy, take out more loans. >For a researcher in a developing country for research papers? contact other researchers and ask directly. Maybe they can also share some stuff with you, especially if they are the author. These are speedbumps not roadblocks. People can and have gotten around them even with little resources. Universities obviously have these resources, researchers generally want to encourage other researchers (even if only to validate their own research). >Nobody dies, but a lot of people fall behind Yes, an unfortunatle reality of all life. If I had to choose, free media is not even in the top 20 things I'd try to make more accessible to such people, though.

WendyTheWillow 3y ago

Yes, the piracy is an indie song is precisely what’s under discussion.

j_maffe 3y ago
Piracy is so much more than that. If that is your concern you should specify it. Even then the morality is still debatable but in my view discussion of it is a distraction from the bigger issues.
- WendyTheWillow 3y ago
  And in my view, the casual nature of piracy enabling the breakdown of the social contract is one of the many things tearing society apart, so to me it’s pretty important.
  - justinclift 3y ago
    > to me it’s pretty important. What other things do you feel are "tearing society apart", and how important are they to you compared to this?
  - atq2119 3y ago
    Societies are usual torn apart from the top, because that's where there are people with power to make impactful decisions.
  - hyperman1 3y ago
    If people break a law so easily, it can't be part of a social contract, because the people don't support it. IP, and specifically copyright are fairly new legal additions. The redefinition of time limited copyright to something extending past normal lifetimes especially so. EULAs and DRM enforcing copyright beyond book-style possibilities is new, and ongoing as we speak. I'd say we see the public at large rejecting part of the law because it is not consistent with the social contract in their heads. Powerfull entities trying to force the law outside the social contract's support is working, but not completely, and that's what's tearing society apart.
    - WendyTheWillow 3y ago
      Except people don't stick to pirating old works, a huge "scene" exists to get the latest and greatest episodes and movies out to the masses via piracy. You bring up an exception, which may be different! But it is an exception. The general rule of piracy is that it's immoral, however.
      - hyperman1 3y ago
        Are you sure you're replying to the right comment? Nothing I said promotes pirating some categories only. The line of reasoning is that copyright falls outside current social contracts. So the general rule of piracy is that it is illegal but amoral. Morality of copyright violations should be determined by other criteria.
        WendyTheWillow 3y ago
        Your argument is effectively an ad populum, so I tried to address the parts that could be salvaged. What people do doesn't define what is right or wrong, nor is that how the social contract operates. Besides, the fact that piracy is rampant is a demonstration of copyright's necessity. If the works were so worthless that trying to charge for their consumption would be pointless, then why are so many people determined to illicitly gain access? And if the works would be made anyway, why weren't they until it was profitable to do so? The argument you're making dies on a number of fronts, but the one I tried to address originally was the only legitimate line of inquiry. Your ad populum redefinition of the social contract doesn't work, as what is good/bad doesn't get voted on or collectively decided. The best rational argument is what wins in an ethics conversation.

gary_0 3y ago

A poor kid who can't participate in culture arguably endures more harm than whatever harm might be caused by copyright infringement.

vasco 3y ago

> Nobody dies Yes they do. Copyright and patent trade agreements kill and they kill a lot people. If anyone is interested in the topic, a good first entry point paper to understand how this works and impacts: > "What is the impact of intellectual property rules on access to medicines? A systematic review" > "With very few exceptions, the articles in this review found that the introduction of patents following implementation of TRIPS rules and pharmaceutical-related TRIPS-plus IP provisions are associated with an increase in drug prices, consumer welfare losses and increased costs to consumers of pharmaceuticals and national governments." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9013034/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9013034/ This paper alone should probably get you depressed, but if that gets you going, read "Information Feudalism" by Peter Drahos, then you'll understand how people in power truly have no respect for human lives in developing countries.

johnnyanmac 3y ago

>How can a student not participate in the use of the ill-gotten goods of textbooks for their studies? rent from the library, ask for a friend's copy, take out more loans. >For a researcher in a developing country for research papers? contact other researchers and ask directly. Maybe they can also share some stuff with you, especially if they are the author. These are speedbumps not roadblocks. People can and have gotten around them even with little resources. Universities obviously have these resources, researchers generally want to encourage other researchers (even if only to validate their own research). >Nobody dies, but a lot of people fall behind Yes, an unfortunatle reality of all life. If I had to choose, free media is not even in the top 20 things I'd try to make more accessible to such people, though.