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> I think they are saying that the composition of users of these apps skews one way rather than the other due to pre existing stances I think the notion that t

> I think they are saying that the composition of users of these apps skews one way rather than the other due to pre existing stances I think the notion that the vast chunk of Twitter or TikTok had a pre existing stance on Israel/Palestine before Oct 7 is kind of silly, imo? Before this I could scroll Twitter without seeing anything about Israel or Palestine for... idk. Weeks, months at a time. I'll maybe see one thing on Palestine being oppressed, usually about West Bank settlements, from the one or two people who happen to be Palestinian. Now I literally cannot avoid it whenever I open either app. I really struggle to believe anyone beyond a small minority even thought about Palestine or Israel before Oct 7.

michaelsbradley 3y ago
> I really struggle to believe anyone beyond a small minority even thought about Palestine or Israel before Oct 7. I grew up in the 1980s and recall intense flareups on this subject matter for as long as I can remember. The arrival of the Web and social media simply amplified them.
- toyg 3y ago
  This is the correct view. The Palestinian issue is a deeply-felt issue for a quarter of the world's population, give or take.
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    Are those population’s countries accepting Palestinian refugees?
    - toyg 3y ago
      The palestinian diaspora at this point is basically worldwide, which is somewhat ironic considering who caused it. This has little to do with the actual point, though.
      - lotsofpulp 3y ago
        My point is it is deeply felt up to the point of actual sacrifice, either in the form of lives waging a war on behalf of Palestinians, or in the form of money re-homing them.
        toyg 3y ago
        > My point is it is deeply felt up to the point of actual sacrifice Because otherwise it invalidates their opinion? So, are you ready to sacrifice yourself in the streets for Mr. Biden / Mr. Trump / Mr. Macron / Ms. LePen / etc etc, or to rehome the "victims" of their policies?
        lotsofpulp 3y ago
        >Because otherwise it invalidates their opinion? It provides some signal as to how “deeply” one (or a group) feels. >So, are you ready to sacrifice yourself in the streets for Mr. Biden / Mr. Trump / Mr. Macron / Ms. LePen / etc etc, or to rehome the "victims" of their policies? No, I do not deeply feel regarding this topic.
        toyg 3y ago
        > It provides some signal as to how “deeply” one (or a group) feels. Because refusing diplomatic and business relationships, repeatedly condemning Israeli actions in the largest international forums they have access to, demonstrating in the streets of their countries, jeopardizing relationships with the richest countries in the world because of this topic, etc etc, are not sufficient signals...? You can certainly criticize ambiguities in certain environments (e.g. Saudi rulers), but overall I don't think one can seriously challenge the depth of feeling on the matter when it's shared by literally billions of people. Maybe one doesn't get exposed to all that because most of these people are poor, living in poor countries that are largely ignored by the Western mainstream, but they are definitely there.
        gr48thecat 3y ago
        [flagged]
    - hypeit 3y ago
      A (further) removal of Palestinians from their land is the definition of ethnic cleansing, so no I would hope they wouldn't be supporting that.
      - lotsofpulp 3y ago
        That is not how I would characterize giving a couple million Palestinians, who are apparently mostly kids, a better quality of life.
        hypeit 3y ago
        Well, you would be wrong: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing
        lotsofpulp 3y ago
        [flagged]
        hypeit 3y ago
        If they're coordinating with Israel or making it so Israel can take Gaza, it is.
        lotsofpulp 3y ago
        In the same vein, leaving those poor people in Gaza in this purgatory where they will obviously never have enough power to fight for what they want/need is tragic too.
        hypeit 3y ago
        I don't know how many times you need to hear it, that is those people's home. You cannot kick people off of their home, even if you think it's "good for them".
    - dragontamer 3y ago
      Mmmm. It's not like the collective West (aside from USA) offered safe haven to Jews. We kinda just threw them into that corner of the world. The important issue here is the obviously shrinking pseudo-state of Palestine. The 1947 borders of Palestine have shifted dramatically in Israel's favor, but Israel continues to send settlers to the West Bank. --------- Hamas was wrong to attack Israel. But Israel is wrong to continue expanding its borders.
      - abnry 3y ago
        It is interesting to note there are about as many Jews in the US as there are in Israel. There are about 7.6 million Jews in the United States [1]. There are about 8 million Jews in Israel [2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Jews https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Jews [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel
        woodruffw 3y ago
        The context for "safe haven" is the end of WW2. Most of America's Jews can date their arrival in the US before then; one of the most common windows is 1870 through 1920.
        joecool1029 3y ago
        Not sure why that's relevant, same could be said of the Irish in Ireland vs. United States. On the topic though, there's only a few hundred Jews left in the first Jewish jurisdiction: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Autonomous_Oblast https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Autonomous_Oblast
        fmajid 3y ago
        Irish-Americans outnumber Irish-Irish nearly 10:1. For a very long time Jewish Americans outnumbered Israeli Jews, if not as lopsidedly. Around 1AD, the greatest concentration of Jewish people was Alexandria, Egypt, where they made up 1/3 the population, not Jerusalem. The actual history of the Middle East defies simplistic narratives.
    - nielsbot 3y ago
      Why should they? Why can't the Palestinians stay where they are? Or even better, return to their lands from which they were dispossessed? That would be the real way to support them.
    - instaeloq 3y ago
      Actually yes. Several of the neighbouring countries have taken in large numbers of Palestinian refugees over the years. Regardless of that point, it's not their responsibility to facilitate Israel's ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.
    - lancesells 3y ago
      The sentiment of a portion of a country doesn't mean the governing body agrees. Even a majority portion doesn't always mean that their government is pro or anti refugees.
    - IOT_Apprentice 3y ago
      The Palestinians want their villages,lands & homes back. Instead they face a military occupation from a nuclear military state with weapons provided by the USA & funded to the tune of hundreds of billions. There already are large numbers of Palestinian refugees around the world. Ironically, the USA IS SPENDING BILLIONS on the war in Ukraine with nothing for the Palestinians.
sjfjsjdjwvwvc 3y ago
This conflict has been a huge thing since the 90s. I would argue the vast majority of people in the west had an opinion on that conflict.
- smitty1e 3y ago
  Since 1948, when modern Israel was founded.
  - sabarn01 3y ago
    since the 1880's at least. The status of palistance was the cause for the crusades so I think we need to understand there is no resolution possible.
    - __loam 3y ago
      I don't think the crusades are especially relevant to the current issues, other than they happened to happen in the same place. WWI and the defeat of the Ottomans is basically where the current situation arose from.
      - busterarm 3y ago
        The specific place is important for historical reasons and there have been migrations of Jews back to the area (after being expelled from Spain/Portugal, etc) since the 1490s. The population was small, up to about 5% of the region during the Ottomans (after heavy losses due to multiple Black Plague outbreaks), but the reason that specific area was chosen (as opposed to alternatives) was because there was already a community of Jews there. Keep in mind that the vast majority of the area was uninhabited swamps until the 1940s and huge numbers of people died from malaria every year before resettling Jews completely changed the local terrain. Look up details about the the late 1880s and the distinctions marking the difference between the Old Yishuv and New Yishuv. Political aspirations of the Old Yishuv were pretty low due to the fact that they were broke as shit and depended on handouts from abroad, whereas New Yishuv resettlers came with money and dreams.
simonh 3y ago
As OP pointed out, a billion Muslims is a lot of people. They may not have the palestinians at top of mind all the time, but a lot of them do at the moment.
- hackyhacky 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    > none of them are taking Palestinian refugees They believe that Israel would like to drive out the refugees and seize their land, essentially putting an end to Palestinians in Israel. They believe that's what happened when Israel was founded and subsequently - there are still refugee camps, and a priority of Palestinians is the 'right of return' to their former lands - and with recent Jewish settlements in the West Bank, and specifically with Israeli actions in the West Bank since Oct 7. Essentially, they think refugees will never be allowed back. That doesn't mean they care, but without that issue resolved, they won't accept refugees. Also, probably they don't want to take on care and feeding of millions, and to simultaneously relieve Israel, their enemy, of that burden.
    - hackyhacky 3y ago
      I agree with you that they have reason to believe that accepting refugees would play into Israel's hands. However, that fact alone is telling: they consider it more important to hurt Israel than to help Palestinians. If Arab nations actually care about Palestinian life as much as they say they do, they would prevent Palestinians from dying. By way of contrast: Poland took over 1.5 million Ukrainian refugees, despite the fact that most probably won't go back to Ukraine, and that depopulating eastern Ukraine helps Russia.
      - wolverine876 3y ago
        They say they wouldn't be helping the Palestinians, creating yet more permanent refugees and the loss of their land. However, I will say that it's hard to say that the foreign government's choices should outweigh the self-determination of the Palestinians who could actually choose whetehr to leave or stay. I don't think they care nearly as much as they say they do. I think Hamas doubts it too; one reason for the attack was to stop Arab reconciliation with Israel that may have left Palestinians in the cold. The idea that they would care seems like a bit of prejudice - Americans and Europeans don't care about every refugee either, no matter where they're from or what they've done, especially these days.
matkoniecz 3y ago
> I really struggle to believe anyone beyond a small minority even thought about Palestine or Israel before Oct 7. This appeared repeatedly as important news, sadly mostly due to wars and terrorism. Jerusalem relevance alone for multiple religions with its holy sites made it important topic for many.
- TheOtherHobbes 3y ago
  People being aware of the issue isn't the same as the issue being their primary interest. Or even being in their top ten interests.
  - matkoniecz 3y ago
    I was responding to "I really struggle to believe anyone beyond a small minority even even thought about Palestine or Israel"
mastazi 3y ago
I think you are underestimating the diversity of these global platforms. As an example, Turkey and Saudi Arabia are among the top 10 countries in terms of Twitter users. https://www.statista.com/statistics/242606/number-of-active-twitter-users-in-selected-countries/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/242606/number-of-active-...
catlover76 3y ago
I think it's pretty unfair this person is being down voted. Yes, most Americans knew the conflict existed previous to this past October, but few who weren't Jewish or Muslim and/or Arab (I think most Arab Christians are generally/vaguely pro-Palestinian, but not sure) would have had strong opinions about it or been able to tell you much. I don't think the issue has ever featured this heavily in the US news cycle since oil embargoes in the 70s, and the issue is a lot more contentious now due to a few different factors. Right now, unless someone consumes zero news media and has very curated social media feeds, I don't see how they could avoid understanding this has all been a major geopolitical event that is continuing to unfold.
- michaelsbradley 3y ago
  > few…would have had strong opinions about it or been able to tell you much That’s simply incorrect. Extensive news coverage of the flareups I referred to led to the subject matter becoming a common topic of conversation and public interest. Heck, I remember there being conversations and debates about it among kids in my school’s cafeteria, and that was in a part of the US where at the time way less than 1% of the population was Jewish or Muslim.
Macha 3y ago
> I really struggle to believe anyone beyond a small minority even thought about Palestine or Israel before Oct 7. It has been a relatively prominent issue in Ireland, and especially Northern Ireland for some time. You can find plenty of images over the years of republican murals with Palestinian flags on them (e.g. 10 years ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/189yeg/one_struggle_a_belfast_mural_expressing/ https://www.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/189yeg/o... ), or conversely unionist bonfires with palestinean flags on it: (e.g. last year https://nitter.dafriser.be/M_AndersonSF/status/1542523209311846406#m https://nitter.dafriser.be/M_AndersonSF/status/1542523209311... )

michaelsbradley 3y ago

> I really struggle to believe anyone beyond a small minority even thought about Palestine or Israel before Oct 7. I grew up in the 1980s and recall intense flareups on this subject matter for as long as I can remember. The arrival of the Web and social media simply amplified them.

toyg 3y ago
This is the correct view. The Palestinian issue is a deeply-felt issue for a quarter of the world's population, give or take.
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  Are those population’s countries accepting Palestinian refugees?
  - toyg 3y ago
    The palestinian diaspora at this point is basically worldwide, which is somewhat ironic considering who caused it. This has little to do with the actual point, though.
    - lotsofpulp 3y ago
      My point is it is deeply felt up to the point of actual sacrifice, either in the form of lives waging a war on behalf of Palestinians, or in the form of money re-homing them.
      - toyg 3y ago
        > My point is it is deeply felt up to the point of actual sacrifice Because otherwise it invalidates their opinion? So, are you ready to sacrifice yourself in the streets for Mr. Biden / Mr. Trump / Mr. Macron / Ms. LePen / etc etc, or to rehome the "victims" of their policies?
        lotsofpulp 3y ago
        >Because otherwise it invalidates their opinion? It provides some signal as to how “deeply” one (or a group) feels. >So, are you ready to sacrifice yourself in the streets for Mr. Biden / Mr. Trump / Mr. Macron / Ms. LePen / etc etc, or to rehome the "victims" of their policies? No, I do not deeply feel regarding this topic.
        toyg 3y ago
        > It provides some signal as to how “deeply” one (or a group) feels. Because refusing diplomatic and business relationships, repeatedly condemning Israeli actions in the largest international forums they have access to, demonstrating in the streets of their countries, jeopardizing relationships with the richest countries in the world because of this topic, etc etc, are not sufficient signals...? You can certainly criticize ambiguities in certain environments (e.g. Saudi rulers), but overall I don't think one can seriously challenge the depth of feeling on the matter when it's shared by literally billions of people. Maybe one doesn't get exposed to all that because most of these people are poor, living in poor countries that are largely ignored by the Western mainstream, but they are definitely there.
        gr48thecat 3y ago
        [flagged]
  - hypeit 3y ago
    A (further) removal of Palestinians from their land is the definition of ethnic cleansing, so no I would hope they wouldn't be supporting that.
    - lotsofpulp 3y ago
      That is not how I would characterize giving a couple million Palestinians, who are apparently mostly kids, a better quality of life.
      - hypeit 3y ago
        Well, you would be wrong: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing
        lotsofpulp 3y ago
        [flagged]
        hypeit 3y ago
        If they're coordinating with Israel or making it so Israel can take Gaza, it is.
        lotsofpulp 3y ago
        In the same vein, leaving those poor people in Gaza in this purgatory where they will obviously never have enough power to fight for what they want/need is tragic too.
        hypeit 3y ago
        I don't know how many times you need to hear it, that is those people's home. You cannot kick people off of their home, even if you think it's "good for them".
  - dragontamer 3y ago
    Mmmm. It's not like the collective West (aside from USA) offered safe haven to Jews. We kinda just threw them into that corner of the world. The important issue here is the obviously shrinking pseudo-state of Palestine. The 1947 borders of Palestine have shifted dramatically in Israel's favor, but Israel continues to send settlers to the West Bank. --------- Hamas was wrong to attack Israel. But Israel is wrong to continue expanding its borders.
    - abnry 3y ago
      It is interesting to note there are about as many Jews in the US as there are in Israel. There are about 7.6 million Jews in the United States [1]. There are about 8 million Jews in Israel [2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Jews https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Jews [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel
      - woodruffw 3y ago
        The context for "safe haven" is the end of WW2. Most of America's Jews can date their arrival in the US before then; one of the most common windows is 1870 through 1920.
      - joecool1029 3y ago
        Not sure why that's relevant, same could be said of the Irish in Ireland vs. United States. On the topic though, there's only a few hundred Jews left in the first Jewish jurisdiction: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Autonomous_Oblast https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Autonomous_Oblast
        fmajid 3y ago
        Irish-Americans outnumber Irish-Irish nearly 10:1. For a very long time Jewish Americans outnumbered Israeli Jews, if not as lopsidedly. Around 1AD, the greatest concentration of Jewish people was Alexandria, Egypt, where they made up 1/3 the population, not Jerusalem. The actual history of the Middle East defies simplistic narratives.
  - nielsbot 3y ago
    Why should they? Why can't the Palestinians stay where they are? Or even better, return to their lands from which they were dispossessed? That would be the real way to support them.
  - instaeloq 3y ago
    Actually yes. Several of the neighbouring countries have taken in large numbers of Palestinian refugees over the years. Regardless of that point, it's not their responsibility to facilitate Israel's ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.
  - lancesells 3y ago
    The sentiment of a portion of a country doesn't mean the governing body agrees. Even a majority portion doesn't always mean that their government is pro or anti refugees.
  - IOT_Apprentice 3y ago
    The Palestinians want their villages,lands & homes back. Instead they face a military occupation from a nuclear military state with weapons provided by the USA & funded to the tune of hundreds of billions. There already are large numbers of Palestinian refugees around the world. Ironically, the USA IS SPENDING BILLIONS on the war in Ukraine with nothing for the Palestinians.

sjfjsjdjwvwvc 3y ago

This conflict has been a huge thing since the 90s. I would argue the vast majority of people in the west had an opinion on that conflict.

smitty1e 3y ago
Since 1948, when modern Israel was founded.
- sabarn01 3y ago
  since the 1880's at least. The status of palistance was the cause for the crusades so I think we need to understand there is no resolution possible.
  - __loam 3y ago
    I don't think the crusades are especially relevant to the current issues, other than they happened to happen in the same place. WWI and the defeat of the Ottomans is basically where the current situation arose from.
    - busterarm 3y ago
      The specific place is important for historical reasons and there have been migrations of Jews back to the area (after being expelled from Spain/Portugal, etc) since the 1490s. The population was small, up to about 5% of the region during the Ottomans (after heavy losses due to multiple Black Plague outbreaks), but the reason that specific area was chosen (as opposed to alternatives) was because there was already a community of Jews there. Keep in mind that the vast majority of the area was uninhabited swamps until the 1940s and huge numbers of people died from malaria every year before resettling Jews completely changed the local terrain. Look up details about the the late 1880s and the distinctions marking the difference between the Old Yishuv and New Yishuv. Political aspirations of the Old Yishuv were pretty low due to the fact that they were broke as shit and depended on handouts from abroad, whereas New Yishuv resettlers came with money and dreams.

simonh 3y ago

As OP pointed out, a billion Muslims is a lot of people. They may not have the palestinians at top of mind all the time, but a lot of them do at the moment.

hackyhacky 3y ago
[flagged]
- wolverine876 3y ago
  > none of them are taking Palestinian refugees They believe that Israel would like to drive out the refugees and seize their land, essentially putting an end to Palestinians in Israel. They believe that's what happened when Israel was founded and subsequently - there are still refugee camps, and a priority of Palestinians is the 'right of return' to their former lands - and with recent Jewish settlements in the West Bank, and specifically with Israeli actions in the West Bank since Oct 7. Essentially, they think refugees will never be allowed back. That doesn't mean they care, but without that issue resolved, they won't accept refugees. Also, probably they don't want to take on care and feeding of millions, and to simultaneously relieve Israel, their enemy, of that burden.
  - hackyhacky 3y ago
    I agree with you that they have reason to believe that accepting refugees would play into Israel's hands. However, that fact alone is telling: they consider it more important to hurt Israel than to help Palestinians. If Arab nations actually care about Palestinian life as much as they say they do, they would prevent Palestinians from dying. By way of contrast: Poland took over 1.5 million Ukrainian refugees, despite the fact that most probably won't go back to Ukraine, and that depopulating eastern Ukraine helps Russia.
    - wolverine876 3y ago
      They say they wouldn't be helping the Palestinians, creating yet more permanent refugees and the loss of their land. However, I will say that it's hard to say that the foreign government's choices should outweigh the self-determination of the Palestinians who could actually choose whetehr to leave or stay. I don't think they care nearly as much as they say they do. I think Hamas doubts it too; one reason for the attack was to stop Arab reconciliation with Israel that may have left Palestinians in the cold. The idea that they would care seems like a bit of prejudice - Americans and Europeans don't care about every refugee either, no matter where they're from or what they've done, especially these days.

matkoniecz 3y ago

> I really struggle to believe anyone beyond a small minority even thought about Palestine or Israel before Oct 7. This appeared repeatedly as important news, sadly mostly due to wars and terrorism. Jerusalem relevance alone for multiple religions with its holy sites made it important topic for many.

TheOtherHobbes 3y ago
People being aware of the issue isn't the same as the issue being their primary interest. Or even being in their top ten interests.
- matkoniecz 3y ago
  I was responding to "I really struggle to believe anyone beyond a small minority even even thought about Palestine or Israel"

mastazi 3y ago

I think you are underestimating the diversity of these global platforms. As an example, Turkey and Saudi Arabia are among the top 10 countries in terms of Twitter users. https://www.statista.com/statistics/242606/number-of-active-twitter-users-in-selected-countries/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/242606/number-of-active-...

catlover76 3y ago

I think it's pretty unfair this person is being down voted. Yes, most Americans knew the conflict existed previous to this past October, but few who weren't Jewish or Muslim and/or Arab (I think most Arab Christians are generally/vaguely pro-Palestinian, but not sure) would have had strong opinions about it or been able to tell you much. I don't think the issue has ever featured this heavily in the US news cycle since oil embargoes in the 70s, and the issue is a lot more contentious now due to a few different factors. Right now, unless someone consumes zero news media and has very curated social media feeds, I don't see how they could avoid understanding this has all been a major geopolitical event that is continuing to unfold.

michaelsbradley 3y ago
> few…would have had strong opinions about it or been able to tell you much That’s simply incorrect. Extensive news coverage of the flareups I referred to led to the subject matter becoming a common topic of conversation and public interest. Heck, I remember there being conversations and debates about it among kids in my school’s cafeteria, and that was in a part of the US where at the time way less than 1% of the population was Jewish or Muslim.

Macha 3y ago

> I really struggle to believe anyone beyond a small minority even thought about Palestine or Israel before Oct 7. It has been a relatively prominent issue in Ireland, and especially Northern Ireland for some time. You can find plenty of images over the years of republican murals with Palestinian flags on them (e.g. 10 years ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/189yeg/one_struggle_a_belfast_mural_expressing/ https://www.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/189yeg/o... ), or conversely unionist bonfires with palestinean flags on it: (e.g. last year https://nitter.dafriser.be/M_AndersonSF/status/1542523209311846406#m https://nitter.dafriser.be/M_AndersonSF/status/1542523209311... )