5 ms·

Homes need to be built better, period. (1) We need 240V outlets for EV charging (costs cents at construction time, costs $3000 - $8000 later) (2) We need elec

Homes need to be built better, period. (1) We need 240V outlets for EV charging (costs cents at construction time, costs $3000 - $8000 later) (2) We need electric panels and wiring future proofed and can also seamless upgrade to solar, battery, complete electrification of home with heat pump water heater and heat pump instead of a separate gas furnace (fridge and AC use heat pump already), induction stove. (3) Home electrification should allow power intake from car, eventually everyone is going to have electric cars. This will serve as emergency power, no need to buy a separate gas generator. (4) Indoor air needs a lot of work, in addition to heat pump for heating and cooling, we have to consider heat recovery, enthalpy recovery, humidity, UV and most importantly particulate matter. And mold prevention. Recent discussion on mold, lots of people reporting problems: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38543229 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38543229 (5) Homes can be built with solar shingles. Right now, we install a roof, then we install a structure to support panels and then panels. If we can just install solar shingles, it is just 1/3 of materials and far more importantly 1/3 of labor and a lot less than a third in time. We now have nailable solar shingles: https://www.gaf.energy/timberline-solar/ https://www.gaf.energy/timberline-solar/ (6) Electric utility (or the city) can lay electric and fiber at the same time. Either the city or electric provider can provide internet or give equal access to providers. We don't need any gas connections, homes can be completely electric. (7) Ongoing discussion on 48V POE for cars (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38557203 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38557203). Wny not 48V POE for most of home wiring? Most everything can be smart by default. I'm sure there are a lot more, but nobody is asking for these. Builders can just build these if people start asking for these as standard. Its a tragedy that people buy 50+ year old homes for 500K - 1 million USD, moldy, rickety, poorly insulated crap homes with so many ongoing issues and will cost hundreds of thousands to retrofit and make it livable.

sokoloff 3y ago
> We need 240V outlets for EV charging (costs cents at construction time I suppose that 25,000+ cents is technically cents, but that’s pretty far outside the ordinary use of the phrase.
hk1337 3y ago
> (3) Home electrification should allow power intake from car, eventually everyone is going to have electric cars. This will serve as emergency power, no need to buy a separate gas generator. That sounds good in theory and I know it's only for emergencies but I don't think that's going to last that long or be that beneficial. At least not right now. > (6) Electric utility (or the city) can lay electric and fiber at the same time. Either the city or electric provider can provide internet or give equal access to providers. We don't need any gas connections, homes can be completely electric. Do they even get buried at the same depths? My understanding was electrical lines get buried deeper than communications lines.
- knappe 3y ago
  >That sounds good in theory and I know it's only for emergencies but I don't think that's going to last that long or be that beneficial. At least not right now. Having a large battery is useful in many, many ways and not just for emergencies. Be it for power cost decrease, emergencies or load balancing, all of these are very much expected consequences of electric cars being in most households. A recent volts.wtf podcast guest spoke about being able to run their entire house for more than a week on their Rivian truck. Now imagine that in a more generalized, non emergency, scenario. That opens up plenty of opportunities.
- organsnyder 3y ago
  Our recent fiber installation burial was accomplished by a single person with a handheld trencher. The trunkline conduit near the street was buried using a boring machine, but I don't think it's very deep.
- bluGill 3y ago
  They can be at the same depth. However they often are not: if there is a problem you need different training for each type of cable so if they are near each other the tech needs both types of training.
- micromacrofoot 3y ago
  My car could power my heating system for multiple days, that's better than freezing in a pinch.
Kinrany 3y ago
> Homes can be built with solar shingles. Is it important for all that to be replaceable when solar technology improves?
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
turtlebits 3y ago
We need simpler/smaller homes. No one really needs a home larger than 3k sf. For new construction, air tightness/Energy efficiency should be at the top of the list. The rest are easy to retrofit if the homeowner wants them.
- latchkey 3y ago
  lol, i'm super happy with my 450sf condo! i'd get lost in anything bigger.
- psunavy03 3y ago
  Oh, great, and now we have the comment of busybodies everywhere. "You don't neeeeeeeed that!"
slily 3y ago
I'll stick with my gas utilities, walls thicker than paper and wonderful lack of anything "smart" thank you very much.
yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
> solar shingles Aren't those less efficient than panels?
- sokoloff 3y ago
  They’re more efficient than asphalt shingles.
  - jonfw 3y ago
    they're also more efficient than drywall, but I'm not going to clad my bedroom in them, because it would be a waste of money. Because the economics matter, we have to understand if it's a better value versus asphalt + solar, or asphalt + ground fixtures, or asphalt + a solar farm.
- danans 3y ago
  They are less efficient at converting solar radiation to electricity, but far more space efficient. PV panels can't extend to the edge of roofs because of fire access code, and have restricted layouts due to their geometry. If the GAF nail-on PV shingles can approach or beat the price of a roof + PV panels, then they will be a good solution. Hopefully with their standard nail-on format, GAF shingles will have similar labor cost of installation to regular shingles, vs the specialized labor needed to install Tesla solar tiles.
danans 3y ago
> (1) We need 240V outlets for EV charging (costs cents at construction time, costs $3000 - $8000 later) Cents for an outlet vs thousands for an EVSE retrofit is comparing the cost of different things. The $3k-$8k isn't paying just for an outlet, but for the labor required to run a suitable gauge conductor from a suitable breaker to the outlet, including opening and repairing any walls. In new construction, it won't be as high, but it will be around $1k (depending on your labor market) when you include electrical design and installation labor. I know this because I've done both retrofit and new construction installation of an EVSE. > (4) Indoor air needs a lot of work, in addition to heat pump for heating and cooling, we have to consider heat recovery, enthalpy recovery, humidity, UV and most importantly particulate matter. And mold prevention. Recent discussion on mold, lots of people reporting problems: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38543229 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38543229 Even beyond mold, there's allergens. Since living in an air-quality controlled home, my seasonal allergies have greatly diminished, which directly translates to better sleep. > 1 million USD, moldy, rickety, poorly insulated crap homes with so many ongoing issues and will cost hundreds of thousands to retrofit and make it livable. There is a general problem with the real estate market that, lacking regulations that require disclosure, buyers aren't educated about energy/air-quality issues they might be getting into, and sellers are incentivized to cover up any such issues (i.e. by throwing open windows and running air filters during open houses). Simply requiring a disclosure of a summary of energy use over the last year (at monthly granularity) would make a big difference.
minot 3y ago
> (1) We need 240V outlets for EV charging (costs cents at construction time, costs $3000 - $8000 later) My understanding is that there needs to be some kind of upgrade on our grid so everyone can charge their cars. This would likely involve increasing its capacity to handle the additional load from widespread EV charging. > (2) We need electric panels and wiring future proofed and can also seamless upgrade to solar, battery, complete electrification of home with heat pump water heater and heat pump instead of a separate gas furnace (fridge and AC use heat pump already), induction stove. I remember seeing a social media post urging people to check their electrical panel and if it was a specific name, “Federal Pacific Electric” for instance, to call an electrician and plan to have it removed because they were known to cause fires. I absolutely agree though. The future is all electric and the sooner we can drop natural gas to homes, the better. >(3) Home electrification should allow power intake from car, eventually everyone is going to have electric cars. This will serve as emergency power, no need to buy a separate gas generator. Ideally, we would all live close enough to free-of-cost to the rider public transit but yes, we should allow power going back and forth between car and house. Maybe we can skip the battery in the house altogether, send all power from house solar panels to (in order of priority) the car if connected, the grid if car is not connected, the house locally if grid is not connected. This could be implemented practically with the right infrastructure and technology. > (4) Indoor air needs a lot of work, in addition to heat pump for heating and cooling, we have to consider heat recovery, enthalpy recovery, humidity, UV and most importantly particulate matter. And mold prevention. Recent discussion on mold, lots of people reporting problems: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38543229 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38543229 I don’t have a link but I remember reading a few years ago about how in places with low pollution such as Colorado and where days are hot but nights are pleasant in the summer, perhaps one way to cut costs could be to over ventilate at night in the summer (after measuring temperature) forcing (filtered) cold air from outside into the house and forcing the existing warm air out. This would also require a good insulation system to maintain the temperature balance. Thoughts? > (5) Homes can be built with solar shingles. Right now, we install a roof, then we install a structure to support panels and then panels. If we can just install solar shingles, it is just 1/3 of materials and far more importantly 1/3 of labor and a lot less than a third in time. We now have nailable solar shingles: https://www.gaf.energy/timberline-solar/ https://www.gaf.energy/timberline-solar/ I am all for it if solar shingles are cheaper than solar panels on top of roofs. While the upfront cost of solar shingles might be higher, the long-term savings and aesthetic appeal could make them a worthwhile investment. > (6) Electric utility (or the city) can lay electric and fiber at the same time. Either the city or electric provider can provide internet or give equal access to providers. We don’t need any gas connections, homes can be completely electric. Yes, absolutely agree. I used to love gas until I learned that gas leaks and gas connections going to homes leak A LOT. Now, I am all for all electric. And yes, we need fiber everywhere please. High-speed internet access for all is especially important in the context of remote work and online education. > (7) Ongoing discussion on 48V POE for cars (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38557203 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38557203). Wny not 48V POE for most of home wiring? Most everything can be smart by default. Does this mean we don’t need step down transformers? Is it simply moving the step down transformers from the street into the house? The potential benefits of 48V POE could include increased efficiency and safety.
acover 3y ago
Is it possible to use normal solar panels for the roofing material?
amluto 3y ago
> (1) We need 240V outlets for EV charging (costs cents at construction time, costs $3000 - $8000 later) 6/2 (plus ground) cable is not that cheap. And current code actually requires EV-readiness in many places. > Wny not 48V POE for most of home wiring? Most everything can be smart by default. I would take regular #12/#14 wiring, so long as the neutral is wired up correctly (which it almost always is with NM-B or any similar factory-made cable) over some 48V let’s-hope-it’s-still-useful-in-10-years setup.
nradov 3y ago
People buy expensive old houses because there is no vacant land to build new houses in those areas. If you want to live in a certain neighborhood then you take what's available. It's the location that counts; the quality of the house itself is mostly incidental.

sokoloff 3y ago

> We need 240V outlets for EV charging (costs cents at construction time I suppose that 25,000+ cents is technically cents, but that’s pretty far outside the ordinary use of the phrase.

hk1337 3y ago

> (3) Home electrification should allow power intake from car, eventually everyone is going to have electric cars. This will serve as emergency power, no need to buy a separate gas generator. That sounds good in theory and I know it's only for emergencies but I don't think that's going to last that long or be that beneficial. At least not right now. > (6) Electric utility (or the city) can lay electric and fiber at the same time. Either the city or electric provider can provide internet or give equal access to providers. We don't need any gas connections, homes can be completely electric. Do they even get buried at the same depths? My understanding was electrical lines get buried deeper than communications lines.

knappe 3y ago
>That sounds good in theory and I know it's only for emergencies but I don't think that's going to last that long or be that beneficial. At least not right now. Having a large battery is useful in many, many ways and not just for emergencies. Be it for power cost decrease, emergencies or load balancing, all of these are very much expected consequences of electric cars being in most households. A recent volts.wtf podcast guest spoke about being able to run their entire house for more than a week on their Rivian truck. Now imagine that in a more generalized, non emergency, scenario. That opens up plenty of opportunities.
organsnyder 3y ago
Our recent fiber installation burial was accomplished by a single person with a handheld trencher. The trunkline conduit near the street was buried using a boring machine, but I don't think it's very deep.
bluGill 3y ago
They can be at the same depth. However they often are not: if there is a problem you need different training for each type of cable so if they are near each other the tech needs both types of training.
micromacrofoot 3y ago
My car could power my heating system for multiple days, that's better than freezing in a pinch.

Kinrany 3y ago

> Homes can be built with solar shingles. Is it important for all that to be replaceable when solar technology improves?

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

turtlebits 3y ago

We need simpler/smaller homes. No one really needs a home larger than 3k sf. For new construction, air tightness/Energy efficiency should be at the top of the list. The rest are easy to retrofit if the homeowner wants them.

latchkey 3y ago
lol, i'm super happy with my 450sf condo! i'd get lost in anything bigger.
psunavy03 3y ago
Oh, great, and now we have the comment of busybodies everywhere. "You don't neeeeeeeed that!"

slily 3y ago

I'll stick with my gas utilities, walls thicker than paper and wonderful lack of anything "smart" thank you very much.

yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago

> solar shingles Aren't those less efficient than panels?

sokoloff 3y ago
They’re more efficient than asphalt shingles.
- jonfw 3y ago
  they're also more efficient than drywall, but I'm not going to clad my bedroom in them, because it would be a waste of money. Because the economics matter, we have to understand if it's a better value versus asphalt + solar, or asphalt + ground fixtures, or asphalt + a solar farm.
danans 3y ago
They are less efficient at converting solar radiation to electricity, but far more space efficient. PV panels can't extend to the edge of roofs because of fire access code, and have restricted layouts due to their geometry. If the GAF nail-on PV shingles can approach or beat the price of a roof + PV panels, then they will be a good solution. Hopefully with their standard nail-on format, GAF shingles will have similar labor cost of installation to regular shingles, vs the specialized labor needed to install Tesla solar tiles.

danans 3y ago

> (1) We need 240V outlets for EV charging (costs cents at construction time, costs $3000 - $8000 later) Cents for an outlet vs thousands for an EVSE retrofit is comparing the cost of different things. The $3k-$8k isn't paying just for an outlet, but for the labor required to run a suitable gauge conductor from a suitable breaker to the outlet, including opening and repairing any walls. In new construction, it won't be as high, but it will be around $1k (depending on your labor market) when you include electrical design and installation labor. I know this because I've done both retrofit and new construction installation of an EVSE. > (4) Indoor air needs a lot of work, in addition to heat pump for heating and cooling, we have to consider heat recovery, enthalpy recovery, humidity, UV and most importantly particulate matter. And mold prevention. Recent discussion on mold, lots of people reporting problems: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38543229 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38543229 Even beyond mold, there's allergens. Since living in an air-quality controlled home, my seasonal allergies have greatly diminished, which directly translates to better sleep. > 1 million USD, moldy, rickety, poorly insulated crap homes with so many ongoing issues and will cost hundreds of thousands to retrofit and make it livable. There is a general problem with the real estate market that, lacking regulations that require disclosure, buyers aren't educated about energy/air-quality issues they might be getting into, and sellers are incentivized to cover up any such issues (i.e. by throwing open windows and running air filters during open houses). Simply requiring a disclosure of a summary of energy use over the last year (at monthly granularity) would make a big difference.

minot 3y ago

> (1) We need 240V outlets for EV charging (costs cents at construction time, costs $3000 - $8000 later) My understanding is that there needs to be some kind of upgrade on our grid so everyone can charge their cars. This would likely involve increasing its capacity to handle the additional load from widespread EV charging. > (2) We need electric panels and wiring future proofed and can also seamless upgrade to solar, battery, complete electrification of home with heat pump water heater and heat pump instead of a separate gas furnace (fridge and AC use heat pump already), induction stove. I remember seeing a social media post urging people to check their electrical panel and if it was a specific name, “Federal Pacific Electric” for instance, to call an electrician and plan to have it removed because they were known to cause fires. I absolutely agree though. The future is all electric and the sooner we can drop natural gas to homes, the better. >(3) Home electrification should allow power intake from car, eventually everyone is going to have electric cars. This will serve as emergency power, no need to buy a separate gas generator. Ideally, we would all live close enough to free-of-cost to the rider public transit but yes, we should allow power going back and forth between car and house. Maybe we can skip the battery in the house altogether, send all power from house solar panels to (in order of priority) the car if connected, the grid if car is not connected, the house locally if grid is not connected. This could be implemented practically with the right infrastructure and technology. > (4) Indoor air needs a lot of work, in addition to heat pump for heating and cooling, we have to consider heat recovery, enthalpy recovery, humidity, UV and most importantly particulate matter. And mold prevention. Recent discussion on mold, lots of people reporting problems: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38543229 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38543229 I don’t have a link but I remember reading a few years ago about how in places with low pollution such as Colorado and where days are hot but nights are pleasant in the summer, perhaps one way to cut costs could be to over ventilate at night in the summer (after measuring temperature) forcing (filtered) cold air from outside into the house and forcing the existing warm air out. This would also require a good insulation system to maintain the temperature balance. Thoughts? > (5) Homes can be built with solar shingles. Right now, we install a roof, then we install a structure to support panels and then panels. If we can just install solar shingles, it is just 1/3 of materials and far more importantly 1/3 of labor and a lot less than a third in time. We now have nailable solar shingles: https://www.gaf.energy/timberline-solar/ https://www.gaf.energy/timberline-solar/ I am all for it if solar shingles are cheaper than solar panels on top of roofs. While the upfront cost of solar shingles might be higher, the long-term savings and aesthetic appeal could make them a worthwhile investment. > (6) Electric utility (or the city) can lay electric and fiber at the same time. Either the city or electric provider can provide internet or give equal access to providers. We don’t need any gas connections, homes can be completely electric. Yes, absolutely agree. I used to love gas until I learned that gas leaks and gas connections going to homes leak A LOT. Now, I am all for all electric. And yes, we need fiber everywhere please. High-speed internet access for all is especially important in the context of remote work and online education. > (7) Ongoing discussion on 48V POE for cars (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38557203 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38557203). Wny not 48V POE for most of home wiring? Most everything can be smart by default. Does this mean we don’t need step down transformers? Is it simply moving the step down transformers from the street into the house? The potential benefits of 48V POE could include increased efficiency and safety.

acover 3y ago

Is it possible to use normal solar panels for the roofing material?

amluto 3y ago

> (1) We need 240V outlets for EV charging (costs cents at construction time, costs $3000 - $8000 later) 6/2 (plus ground) cable is not that cheap. And current code actually requires EV-readiness in many places. > Wny not 48V POE for most of home wiring? Most everything can be smart by default. I would take regular #12/#14 wiring, so long as the neutral is wired up correctly (which it almost always is with NM-B or any similar factory-made cable) over some 48V let’s-hope-it’s-still-useful-in-10-years setup.

nradov 3y ago

People buy expensive old houses because there is no vacant land to build new houses in those areas. If you want to live in a certain neighborhood then you take what's available. It's the location that counts; the quality of the house itself is mostly incidental.