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I think it's reasonable to ask where the line is. Disney has no problems advertising on platforms currently being sued for distributing child abuse material...

I think it's reasonable to ask where the line is. Disney has no problems advertising on platforms currently being sued for distributing child abuse material... https://www.reuters.com/legal/new-mexico-sues-meta-ceo-zuckerberg-over-child-protection-failures-2023-12-06/ https://www.reuters.com/legal/new-mexico-sues-meta-ceo-zucke...

I_Am_Nous 3y ago
The line is probably "Elon was an asshole about everything in general" while Zuck is way more low profile. Clearly it isn't just an idealogical dispute or they would suspend from Meta too.
- shark_laser 3y ago
  You mean virtue signalling one thing, whilst actively and simultaneously doing the opposite by supporting known malicious platforms?
  - I_Am_Nous 3y ago
    Yep, capitalism as usual, working as intended.
    - shark_laser 3y ago
      It is possible to be capitalist, and not two faced and hypocritical.
      - I_Am_Nous 3y ago
        That's true, but it's dependent on people maintaining personal ethics. Unfortunately the incentives are aligned with not maintaining ethics so you can make more money. I've had this discussion with a coworker plenty of times. His argument is regulation makes capitalism safer and the best option we have, while I argue that "after the fact" regulation only prevents someone from repeating someone else's unethical strategy and most likely the initial, unethical party will not really be punished for doing what wasn't illegal at the time. Maybe they get fined, but nowhere near the revenue they generated with the unethical strategy.
  - edmundsauto 3y ago
    Not exactly - perhaps if you only look at the public statements made by the CEOs. If you look at how Meta spends money, they spend billions per year in moderation and brand-safety technology and people and processes. Meanwhile, in the Twitter -> X transformation, these roles were all but eliminated. And yes, one CEO says "it is important we get this right" and the other one says "fuck it all", then it's more "signaling priorities" than "virtue signaling".
    - shark_laser 3y ago
      Billions per year in moderation, and they're still being sued for distributing child abuse material? Also, you forgot the bit about how much Meta spends on lawyers suing federal agencies so they can use data they scraped from their underage users: https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/story/2023-11-30/facebook-parent-meta-sues-ftc-claiming-unconstitutional-authority-in-child-privacy-case https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/story/2023-11-30...
      - imtringued 3y ago
        The problem is fundamental to any jpeg uploading website. For the computer it is just a bunch of numbers. You need a human brain or something imitating the brain for the computer to understand the meaning of the arrangement of numbers.
        shark_laser 3y ago
        This is what Meta's human brains are doing with child abuse material: https://www.theverge.com/2022/3/31/23005576/facebook-content-moderators-child-sexual-abuse-material-csam-policy https://www.theverge.com/2022/3/31/23005576/facebook-content... And this is what they're doing with data they illegally harvested from children: https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/story/2023-11-30/facebook-parent-meta-sues-ftc-claiming-unconstitutional-authority-in-child-privacy-case https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/story/2023-11-30... (and there are many more examples)
      - edmundsauto 3y ago
wkat4242 3y ago
At least meta has tons of moderators trying to find this content and block it. Twitter has literally one moderator for all of the Dutch market.
- shark_laser 3y ago
  They don't sound terribly competent... https://www.theverge.com/2022/3/31/23005576/facebook-content-moderators-child-sexual-abuse-material-csam-policy https://www.theverge.com/2022/3/31/23005576/facebook-content...
- shark_laser 3y ago
  And then there's this kind of thing: https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/story/2023-11-30/facebook-parent-meta-sues-ftc-claiming-unconstitutional-authority-in-child-privacy-case https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/story/2023-11-30...
clouddrover 3y ago
The line is wherever they want it to be. They're the customer. They can buy ad space or not. If they think association with Musk makes them look bad then they won't buy ads on his platform.
- shark_laser 3y ago
  Of course! And I support anyone who talks with their wallet, but that's not what's going on here... If Bob has a personal problem with Musk, then let it be know. I could totally understand that, especially after Musk's recent interviews. But hiding behind a virtue signalling flex when Disney are actively supporting platforms that are as bad or worse is straight up hypocrisy. Even if we ignore the child abuse and focus on antisemitism, it doesn't take long to find out how bad Facebook is: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-58058428 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-58058428 Anti-Semitic social posts 'not taken down' in 80% of cases - 2 August 2021 "Facebook was the worst performer, CCDH said, failing to act on 89% of posts." Similar articles can be found on The Guardian, NPR, and many others.
  - clouddrover 3y ago
    > I support anyone who talks with their wallet, but that's not what's going on here That's exactly what's going on here.
    - shark_laser 3y ago
      Yeah, he's voting with with his wallet... It's the justifications that I'm opposed to. https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/disney-s-iger-takes-shots-at-woke-war-desantis-and-musk/ar-AA1kTatW https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/disney-s-iger-take... "By him taking the position that he took in quite a public manner, we just felt that the association with that position, and with Elon Musk, and X was not necessarily a positive one for us and we decided we would pull our advertising." This is in reference Musk's 'anti-Semitic' tweet. So instead of just voting with his wallet, Bob has turned it into a virtue flex, which would also be fine if they weren't actively supporting other platforms that are known to be far worse. (And that's ignoring Meta's issues with child abuse)
rsynnott 3y ago
I mean, I think _intent_, and scale, probably comes into it. Clearly, Facebook does not want this sort of material; its existence is merely a failure of moderation, and something that advertisers can lean on Facebook to fix. It also, realistically, isn't at all prominent; Facebook is not going to abruptly shove it in the face of 165 million people. On the other hand, Musk himself in the past few weeks has posted "Great Replacement" and Pizzagate far-right conspiracy bullshit, broadcasting it to his 165 million followers. Based on this alone, I think most reasonable people would doubt that Twitter has any intention of cleaning up its Nazi problem.

I_Am_Nous 3y ago

The line is probably "Elon was an asshole about everything in general" while Zuck is way more low profile. Clearly it isn't just an idealogical dispute or they would suspend from Meta too.

shark_laser 3y ago
You mean virtue signalling one thing, whilst actively and simultaneously doing the opposite by supporting known malicious platforms?
- I_Am_Nous 3y ago
  Yep, capitalism as usual, working as intended.
  - shark_laser 3y ago
    It is possible to be capitalist, and not two faced and hypocritical.
    - I_Am_Nous 3y ago
      That's true, but it's dependent on people maintaining personal ethics. Unfortunately the incentives are aligned with not maintaining ethics so you can make more money. I've had this discussion with a coworker plenty of times. His argument is regulation makes capitalism safer and the best option we have, while I argue that "after the fact" regulation only prevents someone from repeating someone else's unethical strategy and most likely the initial, unethical party will not really be punished for doing what wasn't illegal at the time. Maybe they get fined, but nowhere near the revenue they generated with the unethical strategy.
- edmundsauto 3y ago
  Not exactly - perhaps if you only look at the public statements made by the CEOs. If you look at how Meta spends money, they spend billions per year in moderation and brand-safety technology and people and processes. Meanwhile, in the Twitter -> X transformation, these roles were all but eliminated. And yes, one CEO says "it is important we get this right" and the other one says "fuck it all", then it's more "signaling priorities" than "virtue signaling".
  - shark_laser 3y ago
    Billions per year in moderation, and they're still being sued for distributing child abuse material? Also, you forgot the bit about how much Meta spends on lawyers suing federal agencies so they can use data they scraped from their underage users: https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/story/2023-11-30/facebook-parent-meta-sues-ftc-claiming-unconstitutional-authority-in-child-privacy-case https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/story/2023-11-30...
    - imtringued 3y ago
      The problem is fundamental to any jpeg uploading website. For the computer it is just a bunch of numbers. You need a human brain or something imitating the brain for the computer to understand the meaning of the arrangement of numbers.
      - shark_laser 3y ago
        This is what Meta's human brains are doing with child abuse material: https://www.theverge.com/2022/3/31/23005576/facebook-content-moderators-child-sexual-abuse-material-csam-policy https://www.theverge.com/2022/3/31/23005576/facebook-content... And this is what they're doing with data they illegally harvested from children: https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/story/2023-11-30/facebook-parent-meta-sues-ftc-claiming-unconstitutional-authority-in-child-privacy-case https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/story/2023-11-30... (and there are many more examples)
    - edmundsauto 3y ago

wkat4242 3y ago

At least meta has tons of moderators trying to find this content and block it. Twitter has literally one moderator for all of the Dutch market.

shark_laser 3y ago
They don't sound terribly competent... https://www.theverge.com/2022/3/31/23005576/facebook-content-moderators-child-sexual-abuse-material-csam-policy https://www.theverge.com/2022/3/31/23005576/facebook-content...
shark_laser 3y ago
And then there's this kind of thing: https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/story/2023-11-30/facebook-parent-meta-sues-ftc-claiming-unconstitutional-authority-in-child-privacy-case https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/story/2023-11-30...

clouddrover 3y ago

The line is wherever they want it to be. They're the customer. They can buy ad space or not. If they think association with Musk makes them look bad then they won't buy ads on his platform.

shark_laser 3y ago
Of course! And I support anyone who talks with their wallet, but that's not what's going on here... If Bob has a personal problem with Musk, then let it be know. I could totally understand that, especially after Musk's recent interviews. But hiding behind a virtue signalling flex when Disney are actively supporting platforms that are as bad or worse is straight up hypocrisy. Even if we ignore the child abuse and focus on antisemitism, it doesn't take long to find out how bad Facebook is: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-58058428 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-58058428 Anti-Semitic social posts 'not taken down' in 80% of cases - 2 August 2021 "Facebook was the worst performer, CCDH said, failing to act on 89% of posts." Similar articles can be found on The Guardian, NPR, and many others.
- clouddrover 3y ago
  > I support anyone who talks with their wallet, but that's not what's going on here That's exactly what's going on here.
  - shark_laser 3y ago
    Yeah, he's voting with with his wallet... It's the justifications that I'm opposed to. https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/disney-s-iger-takes-shots-at-woke-war-desantis-and-musk/ar-AA1kTatW https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/disney-s-iger-take... "By him taking the position that he took in quite a public manner, we just felt that the association with that position, and with Elon Musk, and X was not necessarily a positive one for us and we decided we would pull our advertising." This is in reference Musk's 'anti-Semitic' tweet. So instead of just voting with his wallet, Bob has turned it into a virtue flex, which would also be fine if they weren't actively supporting other platforms that are known to be far worse. (And that's ignoring Meta's issues with child abuse)

rsynnott 3y ago

I mean, I think _intent_, and scale, probably comes into it. Clearly, Facebook does not want this sort of material; its existence is merely a failure of moderation, and something that advertisers can lean on Facebook to fix. It also, realistically, isn't at all prominent; Facebook is not going to abruptly shove it in the face of 165 million people. On the other hand, Musk himself in the past few weeks has posted "Great Replacement" and Pizzagate far-right conspiracy bullshit, broadcasting it to his 165 million followers. Based on this alone, I think most reasonable people would doubt that Twitter has any intention of cleaning up its Nazi problem.