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White House threatens to veto anti-EV bill just passed by US House
- toomuchtodo 3y ago> Its passage in the House follows a letter-writing campaign by some US auto dealers to get the White House to abandon its climate targets as the dealers say they find it too difficult to sell electric vehicles. Have to kill dealerships off faster. They will fight the transition to the death.
- consumer451 3y agoLike hospitals/health systems, dealerships are wealthy profit centers distributed throughout the country. Both create a significant amount of economic inertia which stymies change in their respective industries, as they each have a Senator or two to bribe.
- taylodl 3y agoHospitals provide a much needed service, auto dealerships do not. Not helping their case is their existence is mandated by law. Crony capitalism at its finest!
- consumer451 3y agoFor sure, I can agree with that. The current dealership model appears to be worthless. The reason I mentioned the two together is that they are somewhat similar as far as being evenly spread throughout the country, yet not part of a national monopoly like telecom and energy. So instead of a couple national CEOs to lobby Senators via their home states, you have hundreds, spread across all of the states.
- jwells89 3y agoThey might have an easier time moving EVs if they weren’t so eager to mark them up to the point of rendering tax incentives ineffective.
- alephnerd 3y agoDealerships also make money off repairs. EVs have a fraction of the total number of parts compared to ICE Vehicles, and repairs might be owned by the manufacturer, not the dealership.
- toomuchtodo 3y agoIn 110k miles in my 2018 Model S, I have only replaced tires and wiper blades, as well as wiper and brake fluid. That’s it.
- alephnerd 3y agoThe golden goose for car repairs is Engine repairs or Emissions related repairs. Neither of those really exist for EVs. The biggest repair is a battery replacement and that's largely unskilled and low manpower.
- kuchenbecker 3y agoThis is isn't accurate, but rather marketing. Current EVs are less reliable than gas cars: https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-reliability-owner-satisfaction/electric-vehicles-are-less-reliable-than-conventional-cars-a1047214174/ https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-reliability-owner-s...
- alephnerd 3y agoMy statement isn't around reliability. It's about the fact that EV repairs will have less parts and repairs will be owned by the manufacturer instead of the dealer. > electric drive motors, charging, and EV batteries These are repairs owned by the manufacturer, not the dealership.
- seanmcdirmid 3y agoMost of Tesla's problems are solved via OTAs, but they still count as "recalls". Dealerships aren't allowed to charge for OTAs, so they don't make money off it unless they get an elder who needs them to install it for them.
- alephnerd 3y agoCuellar and Gonzales represent the Rio Grande Valley (geologically known as the Permian Basin edit: it isn't but RGV is a major oil and gas terminal [https://www.texastribune.org/2023/07/13/texas-brownsville-lng-natural-gas-export-terminal/ https://www.texastribune.org/2023/07/13/texas-brownsville-ln... and https://www.bluewingmidstream.com/terminals https://www.bluewingmidstream.com/terminals]), a major oil production region (edit: natural gas, not oil. It is a primary oil transport hub though because of the Port of Brownsville) . Peltota represents Alaska at large, another major oil hub, and her tribe's Alaskan Native Corporation (Calista Corporation) has the oil drilling rights to the North Slope oil fields. On a separate note I had a buddy who used to lobby for ANCSAs before becoming a Pharma lobbyist. Good guy, and ANSCAs would actually be a better operating model for the lower 48 instead of the current tribal sovereignity one. Don Davis's constituency in South Carolina hosts Volkswagen, Honda, etc's entire US manufacturing supply chain. I can't think of a reason for Jared Golden to vote against this. ME-2 doesn't have a significant oil or automotive economy Edit: Forgot Jared Golden is on the Small Business Committee - Car Dealerships tend to be the largest small businesses in constituencies. EV manufacturers should (and most likely are) try to expand manufacturing in Ohio, South Carolina, and Indiana to better lobby in their favor. Tesla clearly did a bit of this by expanding operations in NV and TX.
- ElijahLynn 3y agoThanks for breaking down affiliations and motivations.
- Texasian 3y agoWhen people say the Rio Grande Valley they typically mean the counties at the southern tip of Texas. The Permian Basin is at the westernmost parts of the state. The areas don’t overlap. At all.
- alephnerd 3y agoDoh. My bad. Will edit it. But RGV is a major oil and gas transport hub as well. I think I confused Pan-American and Permian
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- outside1234 3y agoIt’s not going to stop EVs anyway - they have already crossed the total cost of ownership equality point and it is just physics from here. This is the equivalent of lobbying for coal against natural gas
- alephnerd 3y agoIt makes cost of ownership expensive, and decreases subsidizes for manufacturing. By making manufacturing expensive, it slows down adoption of EV cars, as the price point is too high.
- downWidOutaFite 3y agoIsn't that only when you include the federal tax credit?
- toomuchtodo 3y agoModel Y and 3 are priced below new combustion vehicle price pre tax incentive. As thinkcontext mentions, that price will be lower next year when the federal credit is taken off right at point of sale. https://jalopnik.com/tesla-model-3-and-model-y-cost-less-than-the-average-ca-1850914078 https://jalopnik.com/tesla-model-3-and-model-y-cost-less-tha... > At $38,990, the base Model 3 sedan now costs $8,700 less than the average amount paid for a car or truck in the US. The starting price for a Model Y SUV is $3,700 below the average auto price of roughly $48,000, according to an analysis by Bloomberg Green. Tesla started cutting prices at the start of the year, twisting the screws on legacy automakers that were already struggling to make electric vehicles profitably. > “Now the fun part of cost declines ... life after price parity,” said Sam Korus, an analyst at Ark Investment Management, which manages funds with approximately $1.27 billion in Tesla stock. “There is no reason why battery costs or EVs should halt their price declines at price parity. The product can continue to cost less, or it continues to sit in the same price segment and performance improves.”
- FireBeyond 3y ago> At $38,990, the base Model 3 sedan now costs $8,700 less than the average amount paid for a car or truck in the US. Not sure why Jalopnik would compare the Model 3 prices to a "segment" including cars and trucks. Perhaps because the actual average price for a new mid size sedan in October 2023 is actually $32,400... > The starting price for a Model Y SUV is $3,700 below the average auto price of roughly $48,000 The average price for a new Crossover SUV in October 2023 is $35,700. I think it's highly disingenous to compare against "all cars and trucks", not against segment. Now the Model S is almost at the average in its segment, starting at $74,900 versus $73,536 for the "luxury car" segment (I don't actually agree that the Model S is a luxury car, more 'high end', but we'll go with it. Source: KBB via https://clark.com/cars/average-new-car-price/ https://clark.com/cars/average-new-car-price/
- goodSteveramos 3y agoIt will be several decades before a combination of renewable overcapacity and energy storage can meet any increase in demand for electricity. In the mean time, anything that causes an increase in demand, such as electric cars, will be met with an equal amount of additional coal or natural gas supply. This means electric cars in the US are 100% fossil fuel powered, and the Model 3 only has a ~20% smaller carbon footprints than average gas powered cars and a slightly larger carbon footprint than the gas powered Toyota Prius Hybrid. EV subsidies have mostly lined the pockets of wealthy luxury car buyers who would have bought an EV anyway. Those subsidies would have reduced emissions far more if the subsidies had gone to making economy hybrids the same price as non-hybrids.
- virtue3 3y agoAnother point to consider here. Even if EVs are powered by fossil fuels. A powerplan producing electricity and transmitting it to your house is orders of magnitude more efficient than generating energy from gasoline in a motorvehicle using an internal combustion engine. Also we can curb emissions at the power plant and track them dramatically easier. And more EVs does not mean more power plants turning on per se. Most EVs are charged at night when power usage drops dramatically (and when you get cheaper rates on your electricity). The real answer here is using more green house gas free power options like nuclear and solar and wind. I doubt we'll see much nuclear in the near future because it is so cheap to create solar and wind farms at this point and there's dramatically less risk despite it being dramatically less productive.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- kyrra 3y agoEVs generate a bunch more carbon during their manufacturing process. > As of 2022, Woodley's research showed that aggregate use of EVs below 55,749 miles may — in the U.S., at least — fail to generate any emissions benefit over gas-powered vehicles. https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2023/08/when-buying-an-ev-increases-your-carbon-footprint/ https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2023/08/when-buying-a... Also, If we end up using coal to charge an electric vehicle, its carbon emissions are actually higher than that of can you an ICE vehicle. Then if you have to replace the battery on your EV, that will reset some of that carbon offset.
- higgins 3y agonoob question, why does the title say [flagged]?
- toomuchtodo 3y ago> If a user has 31 Karma, they can flag submissions. Although submissions cannot be downvoted, flags act as a "super" downvote and enough flags will strongly reduce the rank of the submission, or kill it entirely (flagging is supposed to be used for submissions which break the site guidelines, but that isn't always the case in practice). A submission that's flagged to death will have a [flagged] tag. Comments behave similarly. > A [dead] submission (that does not also show [flagged]) is killed by a moderator or by the software. They will only be shown to users who have showdead enabled in their profile. A submission can simultaneously be [flagged] and [dead]. > If a user has 31 Karma, they can also vouch for a [dead] submission/comment. A vouched submission/comment has its rank restored (and potentially improved as the vouch can counteract the effects of flags). > Currently, when an account is banned, a software filter trips, or enough users flag a post, the post goes [dead], meaning only users with ‘showdead’ turned on in their profile can see it. The trouble is that some posts end up [dead] when they shouldn’t be. Banned accounts sometimes post good comments, software filters sometimes have false positives, and users sometimes flag things unfairly. > Today’s new feature lets users rescue [dead] posts on a case by case basis. Beside the ‘flag’ link, you’ll see a ‘vouch’ link to click when a post should not be [dead]. When enough users vouch for a post, the software will unkill it. Think of vouches as the inverse of flags: a flag says that a post shouldn’t be on HN; a vouch says it should. > We’ll review all vouched posts to make sure that they don’t violate the HN guidelines. If we notice abusive vouches, we’ll take away vouching rights (again, by analogy with flagging), so please vouch responsibly! Only rescue civil, substantive contributions to the site. Sources: https://github.com/minimaxir/hacker-news-undocumented#flaggingvouching https://github.com/minimaxir/hacker-news-undocumented#flaggi... https://www.ycombinator.com/blog/two-hn-announcements/ https://www.ycombinator.com/blog/two-hn-announcements/ (Also, welcome!)