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Until your country actually implements laws like these and Hacker News starts complaining that it is "business hostile" and "stifling innovation". There are pl

by crote 3y ago

Until your country actually implements laws like these and Hacker News starts complaining that it is "business hostile" and "stifling innovation". There are plenty of European countries which already have some laws like these. When I buy something on the internet, I have 14 days to return it if I don't like it. I am guaranteed to have a reasonable warranty. Companies cannot abuse my personal data without explicit consent. And indeed, forced binding arbitrage is also not allowed. There is no need to mandate a template ToS, you just need basic consumer protection laws.

that_guy_iain 3y ago
> There are plenty of European countries which already have some laws like these. When I buy something on the internet, I have 14 days to return it if I don't like it. I am guaranteed to have a reasonable warranty. Companies cannot abuse my personal data without explicit consent. And indeed, forced binding arbitrage is also not allowed. This is because of EU laws. A lot of the best laws we have in European countries are because of EU laws. I also suspect that this clause isn't valid in most of Europe.
- concerned_user 3y ago
  You are correct, I can not find where arbitration is forbidden in the directive also it is quite the opposite. I think in this particular case we are talking about Directive 2011/83/EU of the European Parliament and of the Council on consumer rights. Article 6(1) (t) where applicable, the possibility of having recourse to an out-of-court complaint and redress mechanism, to which the trader is subject, and the methods for having access to it.
  - gpderetta 3y ago
    ADR is not forbidden. But it is regulated by 2013/11/EU [1]. In particular: " (43) An agreement between a consumer and a trader to submit complaints to an ADR entity should not be binding on the consumer if it was concluded before the dispute has materialised and if it has the effect of depriving the consumer of his right to bring an action before the courts for the settlement of the dispute. Furthermore, in ADR procedures which aim at resolving the dispute by imposing a solution, the solution imposed should be binding on the parties only if they were informed of its binding nature in advance and specifically accepted this. Specific acceptance by the trader should not be required if national rules provide that such solutions are binding on traders." [1] https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex%3A32013L0011 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex%3A...
    - that_guy_iain 3y ago
      And some countries such as Germany the ADR clause has to be separate from the main contract.
throwaway2037 3y ago
Australia also has very strong consumer protection laws. I'm not an Aussie, but many come here and tell us about it. It doesn't seem to scare companies away from doing B2C business in Australia.
- Intermernet 3y ago
  As an Aussie, I can say that our consumer protection laws are awesome. Some multinational / international companies have been bitten by them, but only because they didn't do their due diligence before launching in Australia. They're really an example of laws designed to protect people. I've universally found that people who complain about them either don't understand them, or they're trying to take advantage of people. I don't understand how other countries operate without similar laws!
  - sensanaty 3y ago
    IIRC, Steam famously had to implement their refund system after the Aus government threatened legal action against them. They ended up making the refund system global rather than Aus-specific, so cheers for that one mates!
logifail 3y ago
> When I buy something on the internet, I have 14 days to return it if I don't like it One (unintended?) consequence of this is that as a consumer, you cannot buy an annual digital motorway toll pass in Austria with immediate validity. The earliest your pass can start from is 18 days from the date of purchase. "Customers can withdraw from the online purchase of a digital vignette within 14 days. Taking into account a further three-day period for mail, your digital 2-months and annual vignette is only valid from the 18th day after purchase." https://www.asfinag.at/en/toll/vignette/digital-vignette/ https://www.asfinag.at/en/toll/vignette/digital-vignette/ How glorious that it's necessary to include 3 extra days to cover the potential delivery time of postal mail in the event of a return for an entirely digital product :/ The workaround for this - which I discovered last time I drove a rental car in Austria - is to tick the box that says "I'm a business, not a consumer". You don't need to prove you're a business, just to tick the box. Consumer protection nullified, can purchase product valid immediately.... <sigh>
- mimischi 3y ago
  Aren’t you able to buy a sticker vignette at just about every stop kilometers away from the Austrian border, as well as inside? I get your point that the digital one has to jump through hoops due to these regulations, but there are alternatives if you need one /now/
  - RyanHamilton 3y ago
    Yes, there are.
- X0Refraction 3y ago
  Strange, I would have thought a pro rata refund would be allowable in these cases. I'm pretty sure that's how it works with insurance so I'm unsure why a toll pass would be any different.
  - carstenhag 3y ago
    Because they only sell them for durations of 10 days, 2 months and 1 year. So if you only need to cross the country for 5 hours, they would lose a lot of money.
robertlagrant 3y ago
> and Hacker News starts complaining that it is "business hostile" and "stifling innovation". Thinking in such simple terms is going to draw you to wrong conclusions. Hacker News doesn't complain. People discuss things. Different people have different opinions. And if they did - so what? You're phrasing this as though people talking on Hacker News would somehow overturn common law. > There is no need to mandate a template ToS The post didn't mention this.
- j_maffe 3y ago
  I think GP was a valid comment about how people propping up business hostility is one of the main reasons consumer law is very weak in the US. Of course, people are allowed to have opinions. GP is arguing what the results of one of these opinions are.
  - acdha 3y ago
    I’d also use the comparison between what was claimed about EU regulations in the UK during the years leading up to Brexit, and subsequent developments. The money spent promoting those false claims was effective.
  - robertlagrant 3y ago
    > GP is arguing what the results of one of these opinions are. I'm saying HN is not the homogenous group the phrasing implies. I wasn't saying GP was implying people can't have opinions.
mcpackieh 3y ago
> Until your country actually implements laws like these and Hacker News starts complaining that it is "business hostile" and "stifling innovation". Literally, so what? I don't understand your point. You can't be under the impression that all laws must be popular with all people, so what does it matter if some ancrap libertarians complain about it? This shouldn't stop the implementation of such laws.
- acdha 3y ago
  It’s more than “so what” because those people aren’t coming from nowhere. American businesses spend a lot of money promoting libertarianism to this end, and it’s been effective enough that any reforms will face unified opposition from every Republican in Congress and likely some Democrats. Most of these are minority positions in the public but not in terms of legislative votes.
  - randomdata 3y ago
    > American businesses spend a lot of money promoting libertarianism to this end American businesses would be the first one crying if they had to operate in a libertarian environment. In reality, they spend a lot of money to ensure heavy regulation that allows them to build moats.
    - acdha 3y ago
      They’re pretty fond of disclaiming obligations and not being sued in real courts, though. The key thing is recognizing that most of the libertarian media exists to serve the funders’ interests, not to promote a coherent ideology.
      - randomdata 3y ago
        What media is seen as holding a libertarian ideology? That is not a common bias. I do see the "consumers should have more choice" bent that you seem to be talking about more prevalently, but that's something quite different.
timthelion 3y ago
Having grown up in the US, my absolute favorite law in Czechia is the one that says the advertised price has to equal the price on the bill. In the US, you get a $20 cell phone plan and the bill is for $60 after fees. In Czechia the price is always exactly as advertised.
- timthelion 3y ago
  Another great on is that text size has legal meaning here. The larger/darker the text the greater the legal weight. So if the contract says two contradictory things, the larger text wins out...
  - conjectures 3y ago
    A bold move. I like it.
    - anshorei 3y ago
      A *bold* move indeed
  - ajsnigrutin 3y ago
    Is that actually the law? Can I get a link to that? In slovenia we have a "suggest-to-government" website, and i'll put the working example there and hopefully at least gain some traction somewhere
    - timthelion 3y ago
      Yes and no. The Czech law is very vague saying that contracts must be written in good will and be understandable by the signatories. It is the Czech supreme court which wrote up a legal test for understandability which you can find here https://www.epravo.cz/top/clanky/absolutni-zakaz-smluvnich-pokut-v-obchodnich-podminkach-spotrebitelskych-smluv-opravdu-107061.html?mail https://www.epravo.cz/top/clanky/absolutni-zakaz-smluvnich-p... I've translated the test using deepl: Translation results "In practice, the principle of fairness is manifested, inter alia, by the fact that the text of a consumer contract, especially if it is a form contract, should be sufficiently legible, clear and logically organised for the average consumer. For example, contractual terms must be of sufficient font size, not be significantly smaller than the surrounding text, and not be set out in sections which give the impression of being irrelevant. This principle of fairness also applies to the application of general terms and conditions. As stated in paragraph 9, general terms and conditions may also be applied in consumer contracts, but such application is subject not only to the formal limitations mentioned but also to restrictions as to content."
georgedegennaro 3y ago
Only 14 days? You don’t get the gift card after the return in your country?
- account42 3y ago
  14 days is the minimum legal requirement for returns without having to state a reason. And they have to give you back real money no some funny store currency. There are also munimum warranty periods.
  - georgedegennaro 3y ago
    You have to give a reason?
dimmke 3y ago
The problem as I see it is that the internet gives businesses the ability to operate globally, but having to be in specific compliance with different laws from every single country (or group like EU) is really challenging and in some cases the regulations are misguided (I think the rise of cookie consent banners is one of the crappiest things to happen to the internet as a user) And that does make it hard, especially if you want to start an internet based business without a ton of money. It adds a huge barrier to entry. Whereas existing players can take on the burden of complying etc... further solidifying the position of very large tech companies. I do agree that basic consumer protection laws are needed, but one overzealous piece of regulation really can cause a lot of problems.
- account42 3y ago
  > I think the rise of cookie consent banners is one of the crappiest things to happen to the internet as a user Those have a simple compliant solution: Don't use more cookies (or other tracking) than you actually need to server the user.

by crote 3y ago

that_guy_iain 3y ago

> There are plenty of European countries which already have some laws like these. When I buy something on the internet, I have 14 days to return it if I don't like it. I am guaranteed to have a reasonable warranty. Companies cannot abuse my personal data without explicit consent. And indeed, forced binding arbitrage is also not allowed. This is because of EU laws. A lot of the best laws we have in European countries are because of EU laws. I also suspect that this clause isn't valid in most of Europe.

concerned_user 3y ago
You are correct, I can not find where arbitration is forbidden in the directive also it is quite the opposite. I think in this particular case we are talking about Directive 2011/83/EU of the European Parliament and of the Council on consumer rights. Article 6(1) (t) where applicable, the possibility of having recourse to an out-of-court complaint and redress mechanism, to which the trader is subject, and the methods for having access to it.
- gpderetta 3y ago
  ADR is not forbidden. But it is regulated by 2013/11/EU [1]. In particular: " (43) An agreement between a consumer and a trader to submit complaints to an ADR entity should not be binding on the consumer if it was concluded before the dispute has materialised and if it has the effect of depriving the consumer of his right to bring an action before the courts for the settlement of the dispute. Furthermore, in ADR procedures which aim at resolving the dispute by imposing a solution, the solution imposed should be binding on the parties only if they were informed of its binding nature in advance and specifically accepted this. Specific acceptance by the trader should not be required if national rules provide that such solutions are binding on traders." [1] https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex%3A32013L0011 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex%3A...
  - that_guy_iain 3y ago
    And some countries such as Germany the ADR clause has to be separate from the main contract.

throwaway2037 3y ago

Australia also has very strong consumer protection laws. I'm not an Aussie, but many come here and tell us about it. It doesn't seem to scare companies away from doing B2C business in Australia.

Intermernet 3y ago
As an Aussie, I can say that our consumer protection laws are awesome. Some multinational / international companies have been bitten by them, but only because they didn't do their due diligence before launching in Australia. They're really an example of laws designed to protect people. I've universally found that people who complain about them either don't understand them, or they're trying to take advantage of people. I don't understand how other countries operate without similar laws!
- sensanaty 3y ago
  IIRC, Steam famously had to implement their refund system after the Aus government threatened legal action against them. They ended up making the refund system global rather than Aus-specific, so cheers for that one mates!

logifail 3y ago

> When I buy something on the internet, I have 14 days to return it if I don't like it One (unintended?) consequence of this is that as a consumer, you cannot buy an annual digital motorway toll pass in Austria with immediate validity. The earliest your pass can start from is 18 days from the date of purchase. "Customers can withdraw from the online purchase of a digital vignette within 14 days. Taking into account a further three-day period for mail, your digital 2-months and annual vignette is only valid from the 18th day after purchase." https://www.asfinag.at/en/toll/vignette/digital-vignette/ https://www.asfinag.at/en/toll/vignette/digital-vignette/ How glorious that it's necessary to include 3 extra days to cover the potential delivery time of postal mail in the event of a return for an entirely digital product :/ The workaround for this - which I discovered last time I drove a rental car in Austria - is to tick the box that says "I'm a business, not a consumer". You don't need to prove you're a business, just to tick the box. Consumer protection nullified, can purchase product valid immediately.... <sigh>

mimischi 3y ago
Aren’t you able to buy a sticker vignette at just about every stop kilometers away from the Austrian border, as well as inside? I get your point that the digital one has to jump through hoops due to these regulations, but there are alternatives if you need one /now/
- RyanHamilton 3y ago
  Yes, there are.
X0Refraction 3y ago
Strange, I would have thought a pro rata refund would be allowable in these cases. I'm pretty sure that's how it works with insurance so I'm unsure why a toll pass would be any different.
- carstenhag 3y ago
  Because they only sell them for durations of 10 days, 2 months and 1 year. So if you only need to cross the country for 5 hours, they would lose a lot of money.

robertlagrant 3y ago

> and Hacker News starts complaining that it is "business hostile" and "stifling innovation". Thinking in such simple terms is going to draw you to wrong conclusions. Hacker News doesn't complain. People discuss things. Different people have different opinions. And if they did - so what? You're phrasing this as though people talking on Hacker News would somehow overturn common law. > There is no need to mandate a template ToS The post didn't mention this.

j_maffe 3y ago
I think GP was a valid comment about how people propping up business hostility is one of the main reasons consumer law is very weak in the US. Of course, people are allowed to have opinions. GP is arguing what the results of one of these opinions are.
- acdha 3y ago
  I’d also use the comparison between what was claimed about EU regulations in the UK during the years leading up to Brexit, and subsequent developments. The money spent promoting those false claims was effective.
- robertlagrant 3y ago
  > GP is arguing what the results of one of these opinions are. I'm saying HN is not the homogenous group the phrasing implies. I wasn't saying GP was implying people can't have opinions.

mcpackieh 3y ago

> Until your country actually implements laws like these and Hacker News starts complaining that it is "business hostile" and "stifling innovation". Literally, so what? I don't understand your point. You can't be under the impression that all laws must be popular with all people, so what does it matter if some ancrap libertarians complain about it? This shouldn't stop the implementation of such laws.

acdha 3y ago
It’s more than “so what” because those people aren’t coming from nowhere. American businesses spend a lot of money promoting libertarianism to this end, and it’s been effective enough that any reforms will face unified opposition from every Republican in Congress and likely some Democrats. Most of these are minority positions in the public but not in terms of legislative votes.
- randomdata 3y ago
  > American businesses spend a lot of money promoting libertarianism to this end American businesses would be the first one crying if they had to operate in a libertarian environment. In reality, they spend a lot of money to ensure heavy regulation that allows them to build moats.
  - acdha 3y ago
    They’re pretty fond of disclaiming obligations and not being sued in real courts, though. The key thing is recognizing that most of the libertarian media exists to serve the funders’ interests, not to promote a coherent ideology.
    - randomdata 3y ago
      What media is seen as holding a libertarian ideology? That is not a common bias. I do see the "consumers should have more choice" bent that you seem to be talking about more prevalently, but that's something quite different.

timthelion 3y ago

Having grown up in the US, my absolute favorite law in Czechia is the one that says the advertised price has to equal the price on the bill. In the US, you get a $20 cell phone plan and the bill is for $60 after fees. In Czechia the price is always exactly as advertised.

timthelion 3y ago
Another great on is that text size has legal meaning here. The larger/darker the text the greater the legal weight. So if the contract says two contradictory things, the larger text wins out...
- conjectures 3y ago
  A bold move. I like it.
  - anshorei 3y ago
    A *bold* move indeed
- ajsnigrutin 3y ago
  Is that actually the law? Can I get a link to that? In slovenia we have a "suggest-to-government" website, and i'll put the working example there and hopefully at least gain some traction somewhere
  - timthelion 3y ago
    Yes and no. The Czech law is very vague saying that contracts must be written in good will and be understandable by the signatories. It is the Czech supreme court which wrote up a legal test for understandability which you can find here https://www.epravo.cz/top/clanky/absolutni-zakaz-smluvnich-pokut-v-obchodnich-podminkach-spotrebitelskych-smluv-opravdu-107061.html?mail https://www.epravo.cz/top/clanky/absolutni-zakaz-smluvnich-p... I've translated the test using deepl: Translation results "In practice, the principle of fairness is manifested, inter alia, by the fact that the text of a consumer contract, especially if it is a form contract, should be sufficiently legible, clear and logically organised for the average consumer. For example, contractual terms must be of sufficient font size, not be significantly smaller than the surrounding text, and not be set out in sections which give the impression of being irrelevant. This principle of fairness also applies to the application of general terms and conditions. As stated in paragraph 9, general terms and conditions may also be applied in consumer contracts, but such application is subject not only to the formal limitations mentioned but also to restrictions as to content."

georgedegennaro 3y ago

Only 14 days? You don’t get the gift card after the return in your country?

account42 3y ago
14 days is the minimum legal requirement for returns without having to state a reason. And they have to give you back real money no some funny store currency. There are also munimum warranty periods.
- georgedegennaro 3y ago
  You have to give a reason?

dimmke 3y ago

The problem as I see it is that the internet gives businesses the ability to operate globally, but having to be in specific compliance with different laws from every single country (or group like EU) is really challenging and in some cases the regulations are misguided (I think the rise of cookie consent banners is one of the crappiest things to happen to the internet as a user) And that does make it hard, especially if you want to start an internet based business without a ton of money. It adds a huge barrier to entry. Whereas existing players can take on the burden of complying etc... further solidifying the position of very large tech companies. I do agree that basic consumer protection laws are needed, but one overzealous piece of regulation really can cause a lot of problems.

account42 3y ago
> I think the rise of cookie consent banners is one of the crappiest things to happen to the internet as a user Those have a simple compliant solution: Don't use more cookies (or other tracking) than you actually need to server the user.