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Learning some ability to draw and paint takes roughly the same amount of persistence as learning to write. That is, you have to recall what a struggle it was to

Learning some ability to draw and paint takes roughly the same amount of persistence as learning to write. That is, you have to recall what a struggle it was to hold the pencil and make a steady mark from the wrist...and then apply that to the kinds of marks you make for drawing, which can be longer, more varied, and use a different grasp on the tool. And then you also have to learn some "shape literacy" if you want to control how you see things. This is likewise comparable to learning to read in that there are ways of breaking down images to understand them as "letter", "word", and "sentence". When we know how to write but not to draw, we draw like we write, using motions from the wrist and observing things in terms of symbolic meaning - the human figure flattens out into a hand shape, an arm shape, an eye shape. But there's very little mystery to "what do you do about that" - you grab a book of exercises like Keys to Drawing or Natural Way to Draw, and you try to see the object you want to study through the exercise. Because we recognize silhouettes first, and we make marks as lines first, contour drawing is a typical starting point for practicing both "seeing" and "doing", and that's something you can spend many months on just by itself. If you want to force a designed result, rather than the result from your eye and hand, you start to apply technology, and that can mean a very old technology like using a grid and rulers(as old as the ancient Egyptians), or it can mean digital tools and tracing over photos.

oblib 3y ago
crq-yml, I think I accidentally down voted your comment. I apologize for that. There doesn't seem to be a way for me to undo that.
- darkerside 3y ago
  Look for the undown link
  - oblib 3y ago
    It disappeared.
EpiMath 3y ago
Excellent comment. I'm one of those people who always thought: "I can't draw". Now I understand that for me it is a matter of practice. I started with Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain.
- AlbertCory 3y ago
  Also, everyone says "I can't sing." Most people can learn to be decent at it. A few really are tone-deaf, but not all that many.
  - thaumasiotes 3y ago
    I was trained in singing in elementary school and then again in high school. I made an honor choir or two. (This would be a significant accomplishment if I was female, which I am not. They'll take pretty much any boy who can hit the right notes.) Years ago I recovered from a cold except that the phlegm in my throat didn't go away. It is still with me. If I try to sing, my voice will just cut out on certain pitches, and sometimes I'll get a gurgling effect from the phlegm. I would like to be able to sing again. :(
    - AlbertCory 3y ago
      I had a voice teacher who was also an opera singer, and "singing when you have a cold" was a very common problem for him. Every singer has to do it, so I'd encourage you to consult one. Good luck.
      - thaumasiotes 3y ago
        Thanks for the response. I will look into it.
- lancesells 3y ago
  The thing with a lot of the arts is they aren't pushed or required in school the same way math or writing are. So someone that says "I draw like a five year old" probably stopped drawing around that time. I'm a firm believer that everyone can learn the craft part of drawing and painting. Some people will learn at a faster rate and some will learn at a slower rate, but everyone can learn. And just like math and writing, there will be those who excel, those who are average, and those who are below average.
tmountain 3y ago
This is accurate. Many people claim to be “bad” at art or music, but both can be learned by almost anyone up to a certain functional level in the same way you would learn a vocation. You won’t be Picasso or Hendrix, but you’ll have a level of competency to accomplish most tasks. As an adult I learned to draw and to write legibly because—-to me—-those are valuable “intrinsic tools”. I made sure my daughter received a foundational music education from a young age, and she can play several instruments with a high level of proficiency based on hours invested, not natural talent. We often don’t value the arts the same way we do other practical skills, and to me, that’s a shame.
- amelius 3y ago
  Most people use feedback to draw: they keep on adding lines until they like what they see. Picasso, however, could draw with just a feed-forward network, i.e. a single stroke would do it ...
  - tiffanyg 3y ago
    Haha - I love this! Excellent, witty, accurate. Kudos. Sorry for low content response, but, too good a joke to simply upvote, IMO
  - JaumeGreen 3y ago
    He might have been able to do that directly at the end, but first he learned to do it by substracting. https://drawpaintacademy.com/the-bull/ https://drawpaintacademy.com/the-bull/
- tiffanyg 3y ago
  Hey now, how can you guarantee p(Picasso) or p(Hendrix) is 0 for all readers of your comment?* In any case, I think your response and multiple similar responses make the essential point(s). One of the useful 'results' from decades of R&D at trying to build machines (&/ "software" - may be considered another type of machine) has been 'seeing' the difficulty in practice at achieving capabilities we (and many other animals ... even, say, nematodes**) absolutely take for granted. One of the old jokes I always associate with Groucho Marx is something like: "Can you play the piano?" ... "I don't know, I've never tried" It reminds me of how people often say "foreign languages are difficult" ... As though any "native language" is somehow different / easy / easier ... Entirely neglecting the tens of thousands of hours of experience and practice most people have with some "native language" by the time they're a mere 10 years old. AND, we all continue to "practice" whatever language we speak and think (to some degree) in every hour of every day. It's all in what you put your time into, as you get at, as well. And, one particularly crucial aspect is what you believe about how skill "arises" which you reference as well. One of the greatest disservices to (young, especially) people is inculcating them with the idea of "talent." While most people are not likely capable of becoming, say, the top tennis player (male / female) in the world - there are all sorts of variables - too often people are artificially limited by nonsense that passes as "common wisdom" and permeates "culture" (ideas that just propagate from some people to others - here, especially, parents to children). It's interesting, to me, that while my mom, for example, was an incredible "believer" in education, and had defied her own parents and exceeded the role(s) they envisioned for her by many orders of magnitude, she also would often reference "talent" in various contexts when I was growing up. We are riddled with nonsense - in our heads. I know for sure that I'll always be full of internal inconsistencies and false beliefs and the like. But, it is very helpful to escape as many of them as possible. Particularly those that artificially constrain us - a species limited enough as-is.*** * Where symbols "Picasso" & "Hendrix" are understood / defined 'in the usual / obvious way' - in terms of equivalence in impact / fame / etc. ** See recent articles on mapping of "neural network" / nervous system structure of C. elegans, for example *** I write this not to disparage our species but simply to highlight the fact that we are constrained just like all other species by our form(s) and what is optimized by the process of natural selection and such ...

oblib 3y ago

crq-yml, I think I accidentally down voted your comment. I apologize for that. There doesn't seem to be a way for me to undo that.

darkerside 3y ago
Look for the undown link
- oblib 3y ago
  It disappeared.

EpiMath 3y ago

Excellent comment. I'm one of those people who always thought: "I can't draw". Now I understand that for me it is a matter of practice. I started with Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain.

AlbertCory 3y ago
Also, everyone says "I can't sing." Most people can learn to be decent at it. A few really are tone-deaf, but not all that many.
- thaumasiotes 3y ago
  I was trained in singing in elementary school and then again in high school. I made an honor choir or two. (This would be a significant accomplishment if I was female, which I am not. They'll take pretty much any boy who can hit the right notes.) Years ago I recovered from a cold except that the phlegm in my throat didn't go away. It is still with me. If I try to sing, my voice will just cut out on certain pitches, and sometimes I'll get a gurgling effect from the phlegm. I would like to be able to sing again. :(
  - AlbertCory 3y ago
    I had a voice teacher who was also an opera singer, and "singing when you have a cold" was a very common problem for him. Every singer has to do it, so I'd encourage you to consult one. Good luck.
    - thaumasiotes 3y ago
      Thanks for the response. I will look into it.
lancesells 3y ago
The thing with a lot of the arts is they aren't pushed or required in school the same way math or writing are. So someone that says "I draw like a five year old" probably stopped drawing around that time. I'm a firm believer that everyone can learn the craft part of drawing and painting. Some people will learn at a faster rate and some will learn at a slower rate, but everyone can learn. And just like math and writing, there will be those who excel, those who are average, and those who are below average.

tmountain 3y ago

This is accurate. Many people claim to be “bad” at art or music, but both can be learned by almost anyone up to a certain functional level in the same way you would learn a vocation. You won’t be Picasso or Hendrix, but you’ll have a level of competency to accomplish most tasks. As an adult I learned to draw and to write legibly because—-to me—-those are valuable “intrinsic tools”. I made sure my daughter received a foundational music education from a young age, and she can play several instruments with a high level of proficiency based on hours invested, not natural talent. We often don’t value the arts the same way we do other practical skills, and to me, that’s a shame.

amelius 3y ago
Most people use feedback to draw: they keep on adding lines until they like what they see. Picasso, however, could draw with just a feed-forward network, i.e. a single stroke would do it ...
- tiffanyg 3y ago
  Haha - I love this! Excellent, witty, accurate. Kudos. Sorry for low content response, but, too good a joke to simply upvote, IMO
- JaumeGreen 3y ago
  He might have been able to do that directly at the end, but first he learned to do it by substracting. https://drawpaintacademy.com/the-bull/ https://drawpaintacademy.com/the-bull/
tiffanyg 3y ago
Hey now, how can you guarantee p(Picasso) or p(Hendrix) is 0 for all readers of your comment?* In any case, I think your response and multiple similar responses make the essential point(s). One of the useful 'results' from decades of R&D at trying to build machines (&/ "software" - may be considered another type of machine) has been 'seeing' the difficulty in practice at achieving capabilities we (and many other animals ... even, say, nematodes**) absolutely take for granted. One of the old jokes I always associate with Groucho Marx is something like: "Can you play the piano?" ... "I don't know, I've never tried" It reminds me of how people often say "foreign languages are difficult" ... As though any "native language" is somehow different / easy / easier ... Entirely neglecting the tens of thousands of hours of experience and practice most people have with some "native language" by the time they're a mere 10 years old. AND, we all continue to "practice" whatever language we speak and think (to some degree) in every hour of every day. It's all in what you put your time into, as you get at, as well. And, one particularly crucial aspect is what you believe about how skill "arises" which you reference as well. One of the greatest disservices to (young, especially) people is inculcating them with the idea of "talent." While most people are not likely capable of becoming, say, the top tennis player (male / female) in the world - there are all sorts of variables - too often people are artificially limited by nonsense that passes as "common wisdom" and permeates "culture" (ideas that just propagate from some people to others - here, especially, parents to children). It's interesting, to me, that while my mom, for example, was an incredible "believer" in education, and had defied her own parents and exceeded the role(s) they envisioned for her by many orders of magnitude, she also would often reference "talent" in various contexts when I was growing up. We are riddled with nonsense - in our heads. I know for sure that I'll always be full of internal inconsistencies and false beliefs and the like. But, it is very helpful to escape as many of them as possible. Particularly those that artificially constrain us - a species limited enough as-is.*** * Where symbols "Picasso" & "Hendrix" are understood / defined 'in the usual / obvious way' - in terms of equivalence in impact / fame / etc. ** See recent articles on mapping of "neural network" / nervous system structure of C. elegans, for example *** I write this not to disparage our species but simply to highlight the fact that we are constrained just like all other species by our form(s) and what is optimized by the process of natural selection and such ...