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That’s certainly good for the environment. Meanwhile, this million-mile Toyota Tundra needed only one engine and several dozen oil changes to get that far: http

That’s certainly good for the environment. Meanwhile, this million-mile Toyota Tundra needed only one engine and several dozen oil changes to get that far: https://www.motortrend.com/features/million-mile-tundra-the-tear-down/ https://www.motortrend.com/features/million-mile-tundra-the-...

reducesuffering 3y ago
That required 72,000 gallons of gasoline. Which was turned into 1.3 million pounds of CO2
- syndicatedjelly 3y ago
  How many child laborers were used to mine the precious metals for those 14 motors and 4 batteries?
  - syncsynchalt 3y ago
    Motors are recycled (as cores and copper). Most of the motors in this car were rebuilt from cores, for example. Batteries are also increasingly recycled, either as units or as their components.
    - syndicatedjelly 3y ago
      I genuinely would like to know more about how the material for EV batteries is acquired. If society proposes we all switch to electric cars, then we should know about all the externalities. Not just the ones that are local and convenient for Westerners to think about.
      - syncsynchalt 3y ago
        It depends on the chemistry of the particular battery, we're always inventing new ones for better prices or characteristics. Lithium is often mined from saltwater pumped out of the ground and evaporated in ponds. We can also extract it from seawater if desperate, so there's a price ceiling. It's only a few percent of the battery by mass. Iron is mined, along with the nickel, manganese, aluminum, and so on. Steel is alloyed from several mined elements. Cobalt is also mined but has a lot of negative externalities so we've moved to chemistries and cathodes that are cobalt-free or use relatively little. Carbon, oxygen, and phosphorus have many sources.
        seanmcdirmid 3y ago
        The main problem with cobalt is that it is mined in a country that has little regard for human or child rights, and is also very poor (so people starve if they don't work). By moving away from cobalt, those kids will just starve instead, it also doesn't seem like the right solution. We could always just ask Belgium to solve the mess they made.
        syndicatedjelly 3y ago
        Thanks, I appreciate the facts. > Cobalt is also mined but has a lot of negative externalities so we've moved to chemistries and cathodes that are cobalt-free or use relatively little. Who is “we” in this sentence? Is there any way to guarantee “cruelty-free” cobalt? Or are the world’s manufacturers forced to source it from mines in conflict zones?
      - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
        Refining oil into gasoline (for ICEs) also uses cobalt.
  - Kirby64 3y ago
    For the motors: none. The P85 only uses induction motors, which consist purely of copper windings and steel laminates.
  - thejazzman 3y ago
    I'm impressed not just by how shamelessly blatant your attempt to redirect this conversation is, but that you do it by suggesting your damage is irrelevant because of an implied but unsubstantiated horrendous act.
    - syndicatedjelly 3y ago
      Really?
    - syndicatedjelly 3y ago
      https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2023/02/01/1152893248/red-cobalt-congo-drc-mining-siddharth-kara https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2023/02/01/1152893... Hope you’re just unaware of the situation and need to be educated, and not just willfully ignorant.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  That's an interesting statistic to compare with because it roughly matches up with 100x what a human being breathes out over a lifetime (15 tons or so).
- vladsanchez 3y ago
  Would you please tell us how much CO2 was required to produce the electricity to charge the Tesla for 1.2M miles?
  - reducesuffering 3y ago
    With a Model S getting 3 miles per kWh, and the average of the US grid getting 0.857 pounds of CO2 per kWh, the Model S would’ve produced 343k pounds of CO2. That’s a 78% emissions reduction from the 1.543 million lbs emissions from a 07 Tundra. And that’s with the current lackluster US grid currently only using 60% fossil fuels. In a decade, when coal has been phased out and solar ramp up has caused renewables to be a majority of the grid, I expect that 343k pounds to achieve another 75% reduction. That’s an average though, you can use your own solar panels to charge your Tesla and achieve practically zero emissions.
  - mensetmanusman 3y ago
    pales in comparison...
hinkley 3y ago
Both Tundra and Tesla motors are surprisingly expensive (especially considering there are TWO of them). But it still looks like you can get at least 3 Tesla motors for the price of a single Tundra motor. I'll spot you some maintenance and transmission work and let's call it 4 to 1. Still off by a factor of 3, but at least not an order of magnitude. The thing is though that you're comparing a statistical anomaly against a different statistical anomaly and you can't do that math. It does not make sense. You have a guy who has driven a truck a long way and what's notable is how well the truck has put up with it (versus everyone else who has tried to treat a Tundra the same way), versus another guy who is notable for driving his car a similar distance, full stop. There's going to be a couple Tesla drivers out there that get 300k miles out of one pair of engines. They just haven't made the news yet.
ikidd 3y ago
We had a neighbor get over 500k with 5 oil changes in that lifetime before the motor fell over. His attitude was that oil changes were a scam. I've seen a few other Tundras still going strong after 15 years, but not with that many miles on them yet.

reducesuffering 3y ago

That required 72,000 gallons of gasoline. Which was turned into 1.3 million pounds of CO2

syndicatedjelly 3y ago
How many child laborers were used to mine the precious metals for those 14 motors and 4 batteries?
- syncsynchalt 3y ago
  Motors are recycled (as cores and copper). Most of the motors in this car were rebuilt from cores, for example. Batteries are also increasingly recycled, either as units or as their components.
  - syndicatedjelly 3y ago
    I genuinely would like to know more about how the material for EV batteries is acquired. If society proposes we all switch to electric cars, then we should know about all the externalities. Not just the ones that are local and convenient for Westerners to think about.
    - syncsynchalt 3y ago
      It depends on the chemistry of the particular battery, we're always inventing new ones for better prices or characteristics. Lithium is often mined from saltwater pumped out of the ground and evaporated in ponds. We can also extract it from seawater if desperate, so there's a price ceiling. It's only a few percent of the battery by mass. Iron is mined, along with the nickel, manganese, aluminum, and so on. Steel is alloyed from several mined elements. Cobalt is also mined but has a lot of negative externalities so we've moved to chemistries and cathodes that are cobalt-free or use relatively little. Carbon, oxygen, and phosphorus have many sources.
      - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
        The main problem with cobalt is that it is mined in a country that has little regard for human or child rights, and is also very poor (so people starve if they don't work). By moving away from cobalt, those kids will just starve instead, it also doesn't seem like the right solution. We could always just ask Belgium to solve the mess they made.
      - syndicatedjelly 3y ago
        Thanks, I appreciate the facts. > Cobalt is also mined but has a lot of negative externalities so we've moved to chemistries and cathodes that are cobalt-free or use relatively little. Who is “we” in this sentence? Is there any way to guarantee “cruelty-free” cobalt? Or are the world’s manufacturers forced to source it from mines in conflict zones?
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      Refining oil into gasoline (for ICEs) also uses cobalt.
- Kirby64 3y ago
  For the motors: none. The P85 only uses induction motors, which consist purely of copper windings and steel laminates.
- thejazzman 3y ago
  I'm impressed not just by how shamelessly blatant your attempt to redirect this conversation is, but that you do it by suggesting your damage is irrelevant because of an implied but unsubstantiated horrendous act.
  - syndicatedjelly 3y ago
    Really?
  - syndicatedjelly 3y ago
    https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2023/02/01/1152893248/red-cobalt-congo-drc-mining-siddharth-kara https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2023/02/01/1152893... Hope you’re just unaware of the situation and need to be educated, and not just willfully ignorant.
jacquesm 3y ago
That's an interesting statistic to compare with because it roughly matches up with 100x what a human being breathes out over a lifetime (15 tons or so).
vladsanchez 3y ago
Would you please tell us how much CO2 was required to produce the electricity to charge the Tesla for 1.2M miles?
- reducesuffering 3y ago
  With a Model S getting 3 miles per kWh, and the average of the US grid getting 0.857 pounds of CO2 per kWh, the Model S would’ve produced 343k pounds of CO2. That’s a 78% emissions reduction from the 1.543 million lbs emissions from a 07 Tundra. And that’s with the current lackluster US grid currently only using 60% fossil fuels. In a decade, when coal has been phased out and solar ramp up has caused renewables to be a majority of the grid, I expect that 343k pounds to achieve another 75% reduction. That’s an average though, you can use your own solar panels to charge your Tesla and achieve practically zero emissions.
- mensetmanusman 3y ago
  pales in comparison...

hinkley 3y ago

Both Tundra and Tesla motors are surprisingly expensive (especially considering there are TWO of them). But it still looks like you can get at least 3 Tesla motors for the price of a single Tundra motor. I'll spot you some maintenance and transmission work and let's call it 4 to 1. Still off by a factor of 3, but at least not an order of magnitude. The thing is though that you're comparing a statistical anomaly against a different statistical anomaly and you can't do that math. It does not make sense. You have a guy who has driven a truck a long way and what's notable is how well the truck has put up with it (versus everyone else who has tried to treat a Tundra the same way), versus another guy who is notable for driving his car a similar distance, full stop. There's going to be a couple Tesla drivers out there that get 300k miles out of one pair of engines. They just haven't made the news yet.

ikidd 3y ago

We had a neighbor get over 500k with 5 oil changes in that lifetime before the motor fell over. His attitude was that oil changes were a scam. I've seen a few other Tundras still going strong after 15 years, but not with that many miles on them yet.