5 ms·

My biggest disapointment on the Framework 16 is that I imagined the bay to be hot-swappable, or at least cold-swappable, like you keep the GPU unit in the lapto

My biggest disapointment on the Framework 16 is that I imagined the bay to be hot-swappable, or at least cold-swappable, like you keep the GPU unit in the laptop while it's on your desk docked to your monitor, and when yo head out, you swap the GPU module for a battery module and off you go. At least that's what I hoped for, but no, that's not how it works, you need some screwing and unscrewing to swap them out, it not something that can be quickly done before you leave the house. Sad. Maybe the next model.

organsnyder 3y ago
That sounds like a better use-case for an eGPU.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  The module on the framework basically is an e-gpu except directly on PCIE instead of thunderbolt. Why they couldn't make it quick swappable I don't know.
  - CuriousCosmic 3y ago
    Hotswappable PCIE is really hard to do right, especially if you are using a non-standard connector. You have to guarantee that pins connect and disconnect in the right order or you risk damaging equipment. And on top of that, while a connector might be perfectly safe with cold swap (i.e. power off), you can damage the connector if the circuit is completed and power starts flowing but you only have partial contact. So it was probably preferable to just release a coldswap versions and try dabbling with a hotswap capable chassis in the future.
    - adgjlsfhk1 3y ago
      it seems like the right approach would be to have a switch that disconnects the wires while the GPU is being connected to ensure everything is connected physically before anything is connected electricly.
      - rtkwe 3y ago
        It's two 74 pin connectors that's way too many to physically switch. Also signal integrity through that many switches sounds like an absolute nightmare.
    - Dylan16807 3y ago
      Connecting the ground first has been solved in many ways. Are there other significant issues here for pin order?
  - DeIlliad 3y ago
    Speaking from experience, there is a big performance difference connecting your eGPU over PCIE and connecting over Thunderbolt. Usually people just take the performance hit with Thunderbolt because of convenience and they are usually using overpowered desktop GPUs but there are eGPU PCIE connectors for people who want the most performance. Because this is already using a mobile chip with lower performance, Framework probably didn't want to tank performance any more by going with the lower bandwidth Thunderbolt option.
    - izacus 3y ago
      The performance hit is because Thunderbolt has at most PCIe x4 bandwidth, while internal GPUs are connected to PCIe x16 lanes. That's a massive loss of bandwidth. But it also tells you a lot about why Framework didn't make x16 bus hot swappable, it's a significantly bigger engineering challenge.
- chx 3y ago
  Especially because the GPD G1, a new eGPU with an integrated GaN charger is using practically the same GPU as the Framework 16. The latter uses a 7700S while the GPD G1 is using a 7600M XT and as notebookcheck put it "The 7700S is the power efficient version of the RX 7600M XT with slightly reduced clock speeds (-100 MHz) and TDP (-20W max)" but the GPD G1 also has multiple VBios versions for different TDP targets. I am using it to change from the ThinkPad X1 Extreme Gen 4 to a ThinkPad X1 Nano. The X1E4 is 2kg, I have a third party GaN + SiC charger which is just 330g. The X1 Nano Gen 2 is 970g, the GPD G1 is 920g so the two together is less than the old laptop alone, with a hopefully similar CPU performance and vastly higher GPU performance. And it's much easier to pack, the X1E4 has a hard time fitting in a personal item backpack. Only disadvantage is I can't really game from battery but oh well that was never a goal. Similarly going with the Framework 13 could be an interesting solution.
user_7832 3y ago
I've had lots of hopes for Framework products too - smaller motherboards for possible tablets, a Khadas Mind-type connector like what you're describing, a nicer 13" display like the current 16" one, heck ideally even a Framework phone - modular and _modern_ (unlike Fairphone; also see: small android phone project). But I think given how young/new they are, it's fine for them to take a little longer as long as their "core" products are at least comparable/as good as competition (which I think they are excluding costs).
- rtkwe 3y ago
  I get why not though tablets and phones are completely different mainboard than a laptop and completely different chipsets with their supporting setups and everything. Trying to have a laptop that works as a tablet or a tablet that works as a laptop is a land of tough compromises and that's not even getting into how tough it'd be to make a thin but repairable tablet.
  - user_7832 3y ago
    I probably should've clarified, I am talking about x64/Intel/AMD tablets. I agree size/thickness isn't the easiest, but it's more of an engineering challenge than something impossible. I wouldn't mind an undervolted 7 or 10 Watt i5 tablet at all, and currently surface devices are the only "major" brand selling x64 tablets that I know of. Another interesting thing regarding small/thin x64 motherboards is the existence of 3.5" ultra-small SBCs like those by Aaeon. If they didn't cost so much I'd love to DIY a tiny, thin tablet out of them. The "advantage" of a small motherboard is that you can put it in a tablet, or put it in a laptop with a better cooling system, potentially reducing the need for another new component.
- pcchristie 3y ago
  The new Fairphone is pretty modern, no?
  - user_7832 3y ago
    Unfortunately performance still seems on the lower side. See https://www.androidauthority.com/fairphone-5-benchmarks-3362975/ https://www.androidauthority.com/fairphone-5-benchmarks-3362... for example. I know it's not necessary to have a blazing fast phone, but as someone using a 2020 iPhone, performance does degrade over time/battery voltage.
znpy 3y ago
Do pci-express even support hot swapping? You might be asking a bit too much.
- buildbot 3y ago
  It does, technically.
- dtx1 3y ago
  Technically, yes. Practically? For some devices.
- Dylan16807 3y ago
  PCIe hot swap is how thunderbolt works.
rfwhyte 3y ago
My biggest disappointment with Framework continues to be the fact I can get a similarly specced laptop from numerous other manufacturers for 40% or less of what the Framework 16" costs. Bestbuy has an ASUS laptop on sale right now for $1200 with damn near identical specs to the bottom tier Framework 16" with the GPU expansion board that Framework wants $2900 for. I love the idea of a repairable laptop, but reparability sure as heck isn't worth a 60%+ price premium far as I'm concerned.
- the-grump 3y ago
  By all means buy the Asus. Personally I'm done with the HP/Lenovo/Dell/Asus/Acer/<insert what I missed> offerings. They make junk that breaks, is impossible to fix and they bundle more and more malware every year. I'm happy to pay the small premium to a company that has different values. They need to cover their R&D and other costs that are higher per unit at their small scale. I'll be here to watch them grow and show the rest of the market how it's done.
  - chiefalchemist 3y ago
    Most of us would probably agree. A premium is fine, expected even. But does the premium have to be so premium?
    - danparsonson 3y ago
      You think they're trying to price themselves out of the market? The relentless consumer focus on price is part of the reason we have so much non-repairable rubbish these days.
      - chiefalchemist 3y ago
        It was simple yes / no question. And somewhat rhetorical. Like it or not, price matters. Yes, there's added value. I'm simply asking a realistic case be made for the price of the added value. Put another way, I don't want to make a long term-ish investment in an ecosystem only to have that system disappear before I reap the benefits. That is, is Framework in touch with the market or not? For example, if Framework is upgradable *and* built to last, will one Framework machine equate to 2 - maybe even 3 - other brand machines? That closes the gap, yes? But if the brand can't communicate / sell that or similar benefits, the brand's mission will be over sooner rather than later.
sixothree 3y ago
Mine is the lack of TKL keyboard. I need those navigation keys.
phendrenad2 3y ago
The problem is Framework is limited by standards here. Is there a chipset + connector that works for GPU hot-swapping? Most consumer-grade PCIe chipsets don't support it, and even the OS probably doesn't support it. USB-C supports it, but that's a standard designed for external connectors, I don't think that there's a reliable internal USB C edge connector or something.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  That's why I mentioned cold swapping which the Framework machine also doesn't support as the GPU module is bolted down with screws, which kind of defeats the purpose of Framework's modules idea.
  - aarond0623 3y ago
    Framework came across to me as more about easy repairs. How many other laptops on the market can you replace a GPU when it goes bad? Swapping out modules on the fly is something above and beyond what Framework is going for.

organsnyder 3y ago

That sounds like a better use-case for an eGPU.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
The module on the framework basically is an e-gpu except directly on PCIE instead of thunderbolt. Why they couldn't make it quick swappable I don't know.
- CuriousCosmic 3y ago
  Hotswappable PCIE is really hard to do right, especially if you are using a non-standard connector. You have to guarantee that pins connect and disconnect in the right order or you risk damaging equipment. And on top of that, while a connector might be perfectly safe with cold swap (i.e. power off), you can damage the connector if the circuit is completed and power starts flowing but you only have partial contact. So it was probably preferable to just release a coldswap versions and try dabbling with a hotswap capable chassis in the future.
  - adgjlsfhk1 3y ago
    it seems like the right approach would be to have a switch that disconnects the wires while the GPU is being connected to ensure everything is connected physically before anything is connected electricly.
    - rtkwe 3y ago
      It's two 74 pin connectors that's way too many to physically switch. Also signal integrity through that many switches sounds like an absolute nightmare.
  - Dylan16807 3y ago
    Connecting the ground first has been solved in many ways. Are there other significant issues here for pin order?
- DeIlliad 3y ago
  Speaking from experience, there is a big performance difference connecting your eGPU over PCIE and connecting over Thunderbolt. Usually people just take the performance hit with Thunderbolt because of convenience and they are usually using overpowered desktop GPUs but there are eGPU PCIE connectors for people who want the most performance. Because this is already using a mobile chip with lower performance, Framework probably didn't want to tank performance any more by going with the lower bandwidth Thunderbolt option.
  - izacus 3y ago
    The performance hit is because Thunderbolt has at most PCIe x4 bandwidth, while internal GPUs are connected to PCIe x16 lanes. That's a massive loss of bandwidth. But it also tells you a lot about why Framework didn't make x16 bus hot swappable, it's a significantly bigger engineering challenge.
chx 3y ago
Especially because the GPD G1, a new eGPU with an integrated GaN charger is using practically the same GPU as the Framework 16. The latter uses a 7700S while the GPD G1 is using a 7600M XT and as notebookcheck put it "The 7700S is the power efficient version of the RX 7600M XT with slightly reduced clock speeds (-100 MHz) and TDP (-20W max)" but the GPD G1 also has multiple VBios versions for different TDP targets. I am using it to change from the ThinkPad X1 Extreme Gen 4 to a ThinkPad X1 Nano. The X1E4 is 2kg, I have a third party GaN + SiC charger which is just 330g. The X1 Nano Gen 2 is 970g, the GPD G1 is 920g so the two together is less than the old laptop alone, with a hopefully similar CPU performance and vastly higher GPU performance. And it's much easier to pack, the X1E4 has a hard time fitting in a personal item backpack. Only disadvantage is I can't really game from battery but oh well that was never a goal. Similarly going with the Framework 13 could be an interesting solution.

user_7832 3y ago

I've had lots of hopes for Framework products too - smaller motherboards for possible tablets, a Khadas Mind-type connector like what you're describing, a nicer 13" display like the current 16" one, heck ideally even a Framework phone - modular and _modern_ (unlike Fairphone; also see: small android phone project). But I think given how young/new they are, it's fine for them to take a little longer as long as their "core" products are at least comparable/as good as competition (which I think they are excluding costs).

rtkwe 3y ago
I get why not though tablets and phones are completely different mainboard than a laptop and completely different chipsets with their supporting setups and everything. Trying to have a laptop that works as a tablet or a tablet that works as a laptop is a land of tough compromises and that's not even getting into how tough it'd be to make a thin but repairable tablet.
- user_7832 3y ago
  I probably should've clarified, I am talking about x64/Intel/AMD tablets. I agree size/thickness isn't the easiest, but it's more of an engineering challenge than something impossible. I wouldn't mind an undervolted 7 or 10 Watt i5 tablet at all, and currently surface devices are the only "major" brand selling x64 tablets that I know of. Another interesting thing regarding small/thin x64 motherboards is the existence of 3.5" ultra-small SBCs like those by Aaeon. If they didn't cost so much I'd love to DIY a tiny, thin tablet out of them. The "advantage" of a small motherboard is that you can put it in a tablet, or put it in a laptop with a better cooling system, potentially reducing the need for another new component.
pcchristie 3y ago
The new Fairphone is pretty modern, no?
- user_7832 3y ago
  Unfortunately performance still seems on the lower side. See https://www.androidauthority.com/fairphone-5-benchmarks-3362975/ https://www.androidauthority.com/fairphone-5-benchmarks-3362... for example. I know it's not necessary to have a blazing fast phone, but as someone using a 2020 iPhone, performance does degrade over time/battery voltage.

znpy 3y ago

Do pci-express even support hot swapping? You might be asking a bit too much.

buildbot 3y ago
It does, technically.
dtx1 3y ago
Technically, yes. Practically? For some devices.
Dylan16807 3y ago
PCIe hot swap is how thunderbolt works.

rfwhyte 3y ago

My biggest disappointment with Framework continues to be the fact I can get a similarly specced laptop from numerous other manufacturers for 40% or less of what the Framework 16" costs. Bestbuy has an ASUS laptop on sale right now for $1200 with damn near identical specs to the bottom tier Framework 16" with the GPU expansion board that Framework wants $2900 for. I love the idea of a repairable laptop, but reparability sure as heck isn't worth a 60%+ price premium far as I'm concerned.

the-grump 3y ago
By all means buy the Asus. Personally I'm done with the HP/Lenovo/Dell/Asus/Acer/<insert what I missed> offerings. They make junk that breaks, is impossible to fix and they bundle more and more malware every year. I'm happy to pay the small premium to a company that has different values. They need to cover their R&D and other costs that are higher per unit at their small scale. I'll be here to watch them grow and show the rest of the market how it's done.
- chiefalchemist 3y ago
  Most of us would probably agree. A premium is fine, expected even. But does the premium have to be so premium?
  - danparsonson 3y ago
    You think they're trying to price themselves out of the market? The relentless consumer focus on price is part of the reason we have so much non-repairable rubbish these days.
    - chiefalchemist 3y ago
      It was simple yes / no question. And somewhat rhetorical. Like it or not, price matters. Yes, there's added value. I'm simply asking a realistic case be made for the price of the added value. Put another way, I don't want to make a long term-ish investment in an ecosystem only to have that system disappear before I reap the benefits. That is, is Framework in touch with the market or not? For example, if Framework is upgradable *and* built to last, will one Framework machine equate to 2 - maybe even 3 - other brand machines? That closes the gap, yes? But if the brand can't communicate / sell that or similar benefits, the brand's mission will be over sooner rather than later.

sixothree 3y ago

Mine is the lack of TKL keyboard. I need those navigation keys.

phendrenad2 3y ago

The problem is Framework is limited by standards here. Is there a chipset + connector that works for GPU hot-swapping? Most consumer-grade PCIe chipsets don't support it, and even the OS probably doesn't support it. USB-C supports it, but that's a standard designed for external connectors, I don't think that there's a reliable internal USB C edge connector or something.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
That's why I mentioned cold swapping which the Framework machine also doesn't support as the GPU module is bolted down with screws, which kind of defeats the purpose of Framework's modules idea.
- aarond0623 3y ago
  Framework came across to me as more about easy repairs. How many other laptops on the market can you replace a GPU when it goes bad? Swapping out modules on the fly is something above and beyond what Framework is going for.