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There's a really weird reversal happening here where there are a group of people who don't like LGBTQ identity, and a group of people who think it's fine, and t

There's a really weird reversal happening here where there are a group of people who don't like LGBTQ identity, and a group of people who think it's fine, and the group that doesn't like LGBTQ identity passed laws saying they could be put in prison for life... But somehow it's the people pointing out that the environment isn't safe who are getting accused of being against pluralism? And not the government that is literally saying, "we reserve the right to prosecute and imprison you if you come here and we don't like your identity/politics." Taking politics out of Python should mean that whoever you are and whatever you believe and whatever your identity is, you are at least safe at a Python conference because Python conferences are not the places where we debate identity, they're places where we talk about Python. So it is not LGTBQ people who are injecting politics into Python when they point out that they can be imprisoned for their identity, that they can't go to a Python conference and just focus on the tech. It is not them who are abandoning the notion of "live and let live together." If this was a conversation about avoiding Tanzania just because some of the attendees might be anti-gay, sure, maybe we could talk about pluralism and decorum. But that's not at all the conversation. You want to take politics out of the equation, politics is the thing that throws people in prison for an aspect of their identity that they don't even control. Politics is the thing that decides that people going to a tech conference need to be on their best behavior to avoid being prosecuted by the government. Taking politics out of Python and embracing pluralism means saying, "if somebody wants to give a technical talk in drag then you don't get to complain about it as long as the tech talk is good." You can dislike it, you can have a political disagreement about it, but a global, officially sanctioned Python conference should be open to everyone. Of course it's not the fault of the organizers that their government won't allow them to put on a conference that meets that criteria. But it's also not the fault of the Python Software Foundation, they don't have any special input into Tanzania's laws. And while it's definitely important to try and be as inclusive as possible to global contributors and to recognize that they are not their government, ultimately if you want to have an apolitical inclusive conference for people from all walks of life, the Tanzania government will not allow you to do that. The Tanzania government (not the African organizers and not the PSF) is saying that the political will rule the technical and the Tanzania government is saying that a politically pluralistic conference is not allowed in Tanzania. The Python Software Foundation is simply recognizing that fact. Of course, if the Tanzania government wants to allow for a pluralistic apolitical tech conference, it could at the very least pass explicit legal guarantees for attendees that they will be at no risk for their orientation or gender identity. But I suspect it's not willing to do that for a tech conference, and I suspect (however good their intentions are) that the organizers do not have the political sway necessary to get that kind of concession from the government.

0xDEAFBEAD 3y ago
>But somehow it's the people pointing out that the environment isn't safe who are getting accused of being against pluralism? Pointing out that it's unsafe is one thing, denying funding is another >Taking politics out of Python should mean that whoever you are and whatever you believe and whatever your identity is, you are at least safe at a Python conference because Python conferences are not the places where we debate identity, they're places where we talk about Python. I agree. So I don't see why you are talking about giving a tech talk in drag. Drag is a costume, worn voluntarily, in the context of LGBT entertainment. A Python conference is not an LGBT entertainment venue. LGBT entertainment wasn't what the attendees signed up for. Political pluralism means give and take. Seems like you want LGBT people to do all of the taking and none of the giving. >So it is not LGTBQ people who are injecting politics into Python when they point out that they can be imprisoned for their identity, that they can't go to a Python conference and just focus on the tech. I mean, they pretty much can? Just don't advertise your LGBT status? Isn't it true in general that African countries tend to be homophobic? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Africa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Africa Most attendees are going to be from Africa anyways, so this situation is sadly pretty much expected for many of them. Question: Is there even a single LGBT African who is complaining about this conference situation? Seems like you may be working very hard to save people who didn't ask to be saved? In any case, in line with my "give and take" point from earlier, I think a reasonable conference policy would be as follows: Don't worry about this problem until an LGBT African person makes a complaint about it. At that point, talk to the organizers about whether the next conference could be organized in one of the few LGBT-friendly African countries, for the sake of LGBT Pythoneers in Africa. If you make that request, recognize that it may increase expense and inconvenience a lot, and be willing to foot the bill for the extra expense.
- danShumway 3y ago
  > denying funding is another Is it? Since when does anyone have a fundamental right to funding? > A Python conference is not an LGBT entertainment venue. A Python conference is not the place to have a conversation about that at all. If someone shows up in drag, the question is, "what technical topic are they going to discuss?" If you have a dress code in mind for a Python conference, I would suggest that is a political ask. Code does not care if someone is wearing drag, it will compile the same. > Political pluralism means give and take. Seems like you want LGBT people to do all of the taking and none of the giving. "The government shouldn't be able to throw me into prison" is not "all of the taking". Again, if we were talking about the presence of anti-LGBTQ rhetoric or about people attending who were known to be anti-gay, maybe we'd have a conversation about give or take. But that is very much not what we are talking about. Political pluralism is about give and take in order to allow people to coexist. And the scenario we are discussing is explicitly one in which one side has said, "you do not get to coexist and if you try to we will throw you in prison. Hide from us." That's not give and take. Give and take is "we don't like each other but we'll live together and do our best to make this work." In contrast, "stop existing" is the opposite of give and take, and "stop existing" is what the Tanzanian government is asking for. > I mean, they pretty much can? Just don't advertise your LGBT status? If the risk of you letting slip that you're gay is a prison sentence, then that is not a reasonable ask, period. It's also explicitly not a pluralist notion. Pluralism means living together; if someone needs to hide who they are, you're not learning about that person or getting to know them or being exposed to new viewpoints. People going undercover about something as fundamental as their gender is not pluralism, and if someone demands that of them, then they are not actually asking to live alongside people who are different. They are asking for everyone who is different to pretend that they are the same. > Most attendees are going to be from Africa anyways, so this situation is sadly pretty much expected for many of them. The conference was not turned down because of an assumption that the conference organizers were anti-gay, and I haven't seen any reason to label them that way. The conference funding was also not denied because of an assumption that African people would be homophobic. I have no doubt that a lot of the people who were trying to organize this conference are great people who have no problem with LGBTQ attendees. This isn't about the African people, it's about laws. > Is there even a single LGBT African who is complaining about this conference situation? Seems like you may be working very hard to save people who didn't ask to be saved? What part of "you can be thrown in prison if you're outed as gay" do people not understand here? Do you think gay people in Africa like that situation? And in any case, if you're throwing a worldwide conference and you want it to be pluralist, then it's not just your opinions that matter anymore, you have to be able to tolerate a global audience. Tanzania doesn't appear have the legal flexibility to do that.

0xDEAFBEAD 3y ago

>But somehow it's the people pointing out that the environment isn't safe who are getting accused of being against pluralism? Pointing out that it's unsafe is one thing, denying funding is another >Taking politics out of Python should mean that whoever you are and whatever you believe and whatever your identity is, you are at least safe at a Python conference because Python conferences are not the places where we debate identity, they're places where we talk about Python. I agree. So I don't see why you are talking about giving a tech talk in drag. Drag is a costume, worn voluntarily, in the context of LGBT entertainment. A Python conference is not an LGBT entertainment venue. LGBT entertainment wasn't what the attendees signed up for. Political pluralism means give and take. Seems like you want LGBT people to do all of the taking and none of the giving. >So it is not LGTBQ people who are injecting politics into Python when they point out that they can be imprisoned for their identity, that they can't go to a Python conference and just focus on the tech. I mean, they pretty much can? Just don't advertise your LGBT status? Isn't it true in general that African countries tend to be homophobic? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Africa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Africa Most attendees are going to be from Africa anyways, so this situation is sadly pretty much expected for many of them. Question: Is there even a single LGBT African who is complaining about this conference situation? Seems like you may be working very hard to save people who didn't ask to be saved? In any case, in line with my "give and take" point from earlier, I think a reasonable conference policy would be as follows: Don't worry about this problem until an LGBT African person makes a complaint about it. At that point, talk to the organizers about whether the next conference could be organized in one of the few LGBT-friendly African countries, for the sake of LGBT Pythoneers in Africa. If you make that request, recognize that it may increase expense and inconvenience a lot, and be willing to foot the bill for the extra expense.

danShumway 3y ago
> denying funding is another Is it? Since when does anyone have a fundamental right to funding? > A Python conference is not an LGBT entertainment venue. A Python conference is not the place to have a conversation about that at all. If someone shows up in drag, the question is, "what technical topic are they going to discuss?" If you have a dress code in mind for a Python conference, I would suggest that is a political ask. Code does not care if someone is wearing drag, it will compile the same. > Political pluralism means give and take. Seems like you want LGBT people to do all of the taking and none of the giving. "The government shouldn't be able to throw me into prison" is not "all of the taking". Again, if we were talking about the presence of anti-LGBTQ rhetoric or about people attending who were known to be anti-gay, maybe we'd have a conversation about give or take. But that is very much not what we are talking about. Political pluralism is about give and take in order to allow people to coexist. And the scenario we are discussing is explicitly one in which one side has said, "you do not get to coexist and if you try to we will throw you in prison. Hide from us." That's not give and take. Give and take is "we don't like each other but we'll live together and do our best to make this work." In contrast, "stop existing" is the opposite of give and take, and "stop existing" is what the Tanzanian government is asking for. > I mean, they pretty much can? Just don't advertise your LGBT status? If the risk of you letting slip that you're gay is a prison sentence, then that is not a reasonable ask, period. It's also explicitly not a pluralist notion. Pluralism means living together; if someone needs to hide who they are, you're not learning about that person or getting to know them or being exposed to new viewpoints. People going undercover about something as fundamental as their gender is not pluralism, and if someone demands that of them, then they are not actually asking to live alongside people who are different. They are asking for everyone who is different to pretend that they are the same. > Most attendees are going to be from Africa anyways, so this situation is sadly pretty much expected for many of them. The conference was not turned down because of an assumption that the conference organizers were anti-gay, and I haven't seen any reason to label them that way. The conference funding was also not denied because of an assumption that African people would be homophobic. I have no doubt that a lot of the people who were trying to organize this conference are great people who have no problem with LGBTQ attendees. This isn't about the African people, it's about laws. > Is there even a single LGBT African who is complaining about this conference situation? Seems like you may be working very hard to save people who didn't ask to be saved? What part of "you can be thrown in prison if you're outed as gay" do people not understand here? Do you think gay people in Africa like that situation? And in any case, if you're throwing a worldwide conference and you want it to be pluralist, then it's not just your opinions that matter anymore, you have to be able to tolerate a global audience. Tanzania doesn't appear have the legal flexibility to do that.