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This is something I keep a reasonably close eye on, as both of my children are dual US-Japanese citizens. Both countries require the choice when the child beco

This is something I keep a reasonably close eye on, as both of my children are dual US-Japanese citizens. Both countries require the choice when the child becomes a legal adult, but neither seeks to actively enforce it (unless there is a reason, such as pursuing a security clearance in the US). It’s an odd area of law. EDIT: The statement that they both require the choice was pointed out to me as incorrect. I lived in the classified world for decades, where that choice IS required and incorrectly generalized that.

seanmcdirmid 3y ago
> Both countries require the choice when the child becomes a legal adult, What do you mean? The USA is perfectly happy with dual citizenship even if Japan is not.
- CobaltFire 3y ago
  My mistake; I lived in the classified world for so long I generalized the requirement there. So we only have to worry about Japan, which in all honesty was the only one we were worrying about.
  - themaninthedark 3y ago
    My children will have the same dilemma well. What I have heard is that if you renounce your Japanese citizenship, you have to turn in your Japanese passport but if you tell Japan that you are renouncing your American citizenship there are no checks to see if it has been done... I do not know how true it is and I would not recommend breaking the law. There is also the matter of detection; Japan is very strict on watch entry and exit, any use of a non-Japanese passport would be noticed there but is there any way for them to see if you have a second passport beyond that?
    - CobaltFire 3y ago
      Regarding the passport: not that I am aware of. However, if there are no other entry/exit stamps in your Japanese passport they will know you are using another countries elsewhere. I suppose you could get your Japanese passport stamped every time you left and came back, but then the timelines might be an issue. Also, whether or not the customs official even would.
      - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
        > However, if there are no other entry/exit stamps in your Japanese passport they will know you are using another countries elsewhere. If you only ever travel between the USA and Japan, they wouldn't know anything since the USA doesn't stamp your passport anyways.
      - themaninthedark 3y ago
        I don't know if the US would stamp a Japanese passport for that reason, probably not because they would be like you entering the US twice and generate a bunch of visa stuff. Now suppose you flew in and out of Canada every time, using your US passport to enter and Japanese to exit.... As long as your were diligent with keeping track of it, it would look like you were in Canada to the Japanese government. Funny story, about keeping these things straight. Going back to Japan after travel with my infant son to Guam. Wife and my son go through the Japanese immigration while I have to go through the foreign nationals line, wife had accidentally handed my my son's passport. The look on the official's face as he stared at the baby photo was great, I told him "Sorry, I didn't shave so I look a little different."
        nearting 3y ago
        You just have to make sure you don't accidentally overstay your visa in Canada with either country since they probably check this by entry/exit dates on a specific passport.
        CobaltFire 3y ago
        Different topic, but I hope you enjoyed Guam. I lived there for several years and miss it quite a bit! It and Japan were our top two locations for settling when I left the military, but life has a way of ignoring what you want and we ended up elsewhere for difficult reasons.
    - nearting 3y ago
      If you don't live in Japan, use your US passport to enter/exit Japan and only carry that passport with you. They might be able to see that you also have Japanese citizenship, but they won't be able to take your Japanese passport if you don't have it. If you fly from the US to Japan and show a Japanese passport, your chances of getting caught are much higher - all they have to do is ask why you don't have a US visa stamp in your Japanese passport.
      - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
        > If you fly from the US to Japan and show a Japanese passport, your chances of getting caught are much higher - all they have to do is ask why you don't have a US visa stamp in your Japanese passport. In most countries, including the USA and and I assume Japan, it is illegal to enter or leave the country on another passport that is not that country's passport (assuming you have such a passport). So, I wouldn't risk this: you are changing what is a civil problem into a criminal problem. > all they have to do is ask why you don't have a US visa stamp in your Japanese passport. The USA stopped stamping passports of foreign nationals in 2022.
- dspearson 3y ago
  If a child chooses to get a USA passport, surely this means renouncing Japanese citizenship?
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    The USA doesn't care about your other passport, they won't make you do anything, or even know what you have to do according to the other country's laws.
    - Hamuko 3y ago
      I wish that worked both ways and that I didn't have to convince my bank that I'm not an American, I don't feel American or have ever been to the US just because the US has some shitty tax law.
BobaFloutist 3y ago
but neither seeks to actively enforce it That reminds me of when I was traveling in Israel, and they said next time I entered the country I needed to either register to perform military duty there, or renounce my citizenship (gotten through my father), so I decided to simply not return until I aged out of military duty.
junar 3y ago
Note that the individual in the linked article is different from your family's case because she naturalized as a US citizen. Japan seems to enforce loss of citizenship more strictly in these cases. If your children are dual citizens from birth, different laws apply. As an example, despite Naomi Osaka publicly declaring to choose Japanese citizenship, she has not been reported to appear in the US government's "Quarterly Publication of Individuals, Who Have Chosen to Expatriate". [1] [2] [1] https://www.ubitennis.net/2020/12/naomi-osaka-and-a-tale-of-two-countries/ https://www.ubitennis.net/2020/12/naomi-osaka-and-a-tale-of-... [2] https://old.reddit.com/r/japan/comments/16i22mh/dual_citizens_did_you_actually_choose_nationality/k0imbsh/ https://old.reddit.com/r/japan/comments/16i22mh/dual_citizen...

seanmcdirmid 3y ago

> Both countries require the choice when the child becomes a legal adult, What do you mean? The USA is perfectly happy with dual citizenship even if Japan is not.

CobaltFire 3y ago
My mistake; I lived in the classified world for so long I generalized the requirement there. So we only have to worry about Japan, which in all honesty was the only one we were worrying about.
- themaninthedark 3y ago
  My children will have the same dilemma well. What I have heard is that if you renounce your Japanese citizenship, you have to turn in your Japanese passport but if you tell Japan that you are renouncing your American citizenship there are no checks to see if it has been done... I do not know how true it is and I would not recommend breaking the law. There is also the matter of detection; Japan is very strict on watch entry and exit, any use of a non-Japanese passport would be noticed there but is there any way for them to see if you have a second passport beyond that?
  - CobaltFire 3y ago
    Regarding the passport: not that I am aware of. However, if there are no other entry/exit stamps in your Japanese passport they will know you are using another countries elsewhere. I suppose you could get your Japanese passport stamped every time you left and came back, but then the timelines might be an issue. Also, whether or not the customs official even would.
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      > However, if there are no other entry/exit stamps in your Japanese passport they will know you are using another countries elsewhere. If you only ever travel between the USA and Japan, they wouldn't know anything since the USA doesn't stamp your passport anyways.
    - themaninthedark 3y ago
      I don't know if the US would stamp a Japanese passport for that reason, probably not because they would be like you entering the US twice and generate a bunch of visa stuff. Now suppose you flew in and out of Canada every time, using your US passport to enter and Japanese to exit.... As long as your were diligent with keeping track of it, it would look like you were in Canada to the Japanese government. Funny story, about keeping these things straight. Going back to Japan after travel with my infant son to Guam. Wife and my son go through the Japanese immigration while I have to go through the foreign nationals line, wife had accidentally handed my my son's passport. The look on the official's face as he stared at the baby photo was great, I told him "Sorry, I didn't shave so I look a little different."
      - nearting 3y ago
        You just have to make sure you don't accidentally overstay your visa in Canada with either country since they probably check this by entry/exit dates on a specific passport.
      - CobaltFire 3y ago
        Different topic, but I hope you enjoyed Guam. I lived there for several years and miss it quite a bit! It and Japan were our top two locations for settling when I left the military, but life has a way of ignoring what you want and we ended up elsewhere for difficult reasons.
  - nearting 3y ago
    If you don't live in Japan, use your US passport to enter/exit Japan and only carry that passport with you. They might be able to see that you also have Japanese citizenship, but they won't be able to take your Japanese passport if you don't have it. If you fly from the US to Japan and show a Japanese passport, your chances of getting caught are much higher - all they have to do is ask why you don't have a US visa stamp in your Japanese passport.
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      > If you fly from the US to Japan and show a Japanese passport, your chances of getting caught are much higher - all they have to do is ask why you don't have a US visa stamp in your Japanese passport. In most countries, including the USA and and I assume Japan, it is illegal to enter or leave the country on another passport that is not that country's passport (assuming you have such a passport). So, I wouldn't risk this: you are changing what is a civil problem into a criminal problem. > all they have to do is ask why you don't have a US visa stamp in your Japanese passport. The USA stopped stamping passports of foreign nationals in 2022.
dspearson 3y ago
If a child chooses to get a USA passport, surely this means renouncing Japanese citizenship?
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  The USA doesn't care about your other passport, they won't make you do anything, or even know what you have to do according to the other country's laws.
  - Hamuko 3y ago
    I wish that worked both ways and that I didn't have to convince my bank that I'm not an American, I don't feel American or have ever been to the US just because the US has some shitty tax law.

BobaFloutist 3y ago

but neither seeks to actively enforce it That reminds me of when I was traveling in Israel, and they said next time I entered the country I needed to either register to perform military duty there, or renounce my citizenship (gotten through my father), so I decided to simply not return until I aged out of military duty.

junar 3y ago

Note that the individual in the linked article is different from your family's case because she naturalized as a US citizen. Japan seems to enforce loss of citizenship more strictly in these cases. If your children are dual citizens from birth, different laws apply. As an example, despite Naomi Osaka publicly declaring to choose Japanese citizenship, she has not been reported to appear in the US government's "Quarterly Publication of Individuals, Who Have Chosen to Expatriate". [1] [2] [1] https://www.ubitennis.net/2020/12/naomi-osaka-and-a-tale-of-two-countries/ https://www.ubitennis.net/2020/12/naomi-osaka-and-a-tale-of-... [2] https://old.reddit.com/r/japan/comments/16i22mh/dual_citizens_did_you_actually_choose_nationality/k0imbsh/ https://old.reddit.com/r/japan/comments/16i22mh/dual_citizen...