6 ms·

The whole system of citizenship is bizarre. I am a citizen of two countries, neither of which I have ever pledged fealty to. I am a citizen of Germany because

by lisper 3y ago

The whole system of citizenship is bizarre. I am a citizen of two countries, neither of which I have ever pledged fealty to. I am a citizen of Germany because I was born there and my parents were citizens at the time, and I am a citizen of the U.S. because my parents were naturalized when I was a minor. And I am keenly aware that there are millions of people who would literally risk their lives for either of those citizenships. And then there are horror stories like this one: https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2023/11/25/virginia-doctor-passport-citizenship-nightmare/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2023/11/25/virginia-... Next year I am going to renew my U.S. passport. For some unknown number of weeks I will be in limbo, unable to legally leave the country, at the whims of the mail and some unknown bureaucrat who may or may not decide to grant my renewal or decide that the photo I've submitted is not quite the right size or whatever. The whole system sucks big fat honking weenies.

resolutebat 3y ago
https://archive.is/2023.11.28-214421/https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2023/11/25/virginia-doctor-passport-citizenship-nightmare/ https://archive.is/2023.11.28-214421/https://www.washingtonp... Although as described, the story doesn't quite add up. The government is denying citizenship because his father was a diplomat at the time he was born, but he says his father only took a temporary job at the embassy, which would usually not qualify for diplomatic immunity.
454548s 3y ago
[flagged]
- atemerev 3y ago
  Things will end with all countries gone, eventually.
  - 454548s 3y ago
    [flagged]
globular-toast 3y ago
One especially bizarre part of US citizenship is you can "accidentally" be a citizen without knowing and be required to pay income tax to the US regardless of where you live/work. What's more is it costs money to give up your US citizenship and you can only do it if you have no outstanding tax to pay.
- User23 3y ago
  Worldwide taxation is practically an operational necessity for the worldwide reserve currency issuer.
  - FpUser 3y ago
    I see zero basis for such claim
  - zlg_codes 3y ago
    The US has no moral right to ask for tax for people who haven't stepped inside its borders all year.
    - User23 3y ago
      Of course it does if they have willingly chosen to participate in its ledger game and use its services.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  > be required to pay income tax to the US regardless of where you live/work. While technically true, you are only really required to file, and then exempt your income via the foreign earned income exemption or the foreign tax credit. This one simple trick means 95% of all Americans working abroad pay no US tax.
  - OfSanguineFire 3y ago
    Apparently if one is a sole proprietor in a country that does not have the respective tax treaty with the US, one can be obliged to pay US Social Security and Medicare out of foreign income. I lack any expertise in this domain, but friends of mine who have returned to Romania (which lacks a treaty) after living in the US long enough for citizenship, have complained about having to set up a corporate structure and pay themselves via annual dividends in order to avoid this taxation.
seanmcdirmid 3y ago
I've never had a problem with passport renewal in the USA. If you do it abroad, it is even expedited by default. It is really hard to mess up the photo, though the places that can do it reliably are increasingly small (you are better off going with an app these days and then using photo printing).
- corbet 3y ago
  Earlier this year I had to cancel a trip to the south Pacific because, it turns out, four months is no longer enough time for an "expedited" passport renewal. Appointments for urgent-travel renewals are not available in the US no matter how many hours you spend in the State Department phone system. It has gone downhill in a big way. Bonus lesson that I learned too late: if you're in need of an urgent passport renewal, complain to your senator; I got an appointment within a week once I did that.
  - cozzyd 3y ago
    I got an urgent travel appointment for my toddler about a month ago with little trouble, though I suspect it would be more difficult in the summer. We got her (first ever!) passport on the same day as the appointment, 1 week after calling to make it and 4 days before our planned trip to Canada. It's probably easier if you don't apply for your passport ahead of time because you can get your appointment up to 14 days before. I am lucky to live a few blocks from a passport center though, it's not really practical for everyone, and of course, there's no guarantee that an appointment would have been available.
atemerev 3y ago
And I want to renounce my current citizenship and live as a stateless person, which would be preferable compared to my current citizenship. Unfortunately, there isn't a way to do that, unless you already have some other citizenship, which I don't.
- phantom784 3y ago
  Can you share what country you want to give up citizenship from? It's hard to imagine that being stateless would be preferable in most cases.
  - atemerev 3y ago
    Russia.
lastofthemojito 3y ago
> For some unknown number of weeks I will be in limbo, unable to legally leave the country, at the whims of the mail and some unknown bureaucrat who may or may not decide to grant my renewal or decide that the photo I've submitted is not quite the right size or whatever. Agreed that the system sucks and is generally antiquated. That being said, if you travel frequently and need to avoid that limbo state, you may be able to maintain a second US passport: https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/passports/have-passport/second-passport-book.html https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/passports/have-pa...
orangepurple 3y ago
FTA: the doctor did not receive a new passport; instead, he received a letter from the State Department stating that he should not have been granted citizenship at the time of his birth because his father was a diplomat with the Embassy of Iran.
OfSanguineFire 3y ago
> unable to legally leave the country I am having a hard time understanding why, help me out. I’m not sure about airports, but the US doesn’t check passports on the way out at land borders, so you could walk from the US into Mexico without the US side checking, and then when the Mexican official asks you, you could just present your German passport. Of course American citizens are obliged to reenter the US on their American passport, but if you are getting the new US passport back by post, couldn’t you have a family member DHL it to wherever you are outside the US?
- lisper 3y ago
  > you could walk from the US into Mexico Yes, but I wouldn't be able to come back. And Mexico is the only place I could go. So strictly speaking I overstated a bit when I said I could not leave the country. I could leave, but I would not be able to travel freely like I can now.
tenpies 3y ago
> unable to legally leave the country Just a small distinction: you are free to legally leave the US at any time. The US has no exit controls[1]. They do not even monitor who leaves at all, so they have no real idea or care, about who is leaving the country. It is perfectly legal to leave the US without a US passport, or any type of passport or ID. Now the countries that share borders with the US, may not let you enter through a legal port of entry, but the US is not stopping you from leaving. --- [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_control#Exit_controls https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_control#Exit_controls This freedom should not be taken for granted, as countries accross the entire spectrum of tyranny do monitor exits - from China to the Schengen Area countries, and many in-between. And if you want to see it taken a step further, scroll down to the exit permit system, where it would be illegal for you to leave your own country, unless you have an exit visa.
- lisper 3y ago
  > the US is not stopping you from leaving That's true, but it doesn't help much because I can't just leave. I have to go somewhere. No airline nor cruise ship will allow me to board an international flight or cruise without a passport, nor will Canada allow me to enter without one. That leaves Mexico. So yes, I suppose I could go to Mexico, but then I could not return.
  - pas 3y ago
    you don't have a passport from Germany?
  - OfSanguineFire 3y ago
    Why can’t you enter Canada on your German passport?
    - lisper 3y ago
      Probably, but then I couldn't come back.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
supernova87a 3y ago
What would the system be as an alternative? You are born stateless and have the ability to declare (or in harsher terms, need to audition for) citizenship to a country of your choosing? At what age? The notion of having no state is kind of an impracticality, do we accept that as a given?
- HenryBemis 3y ago
  That's a great(?) dystopian movie scenario. All pregnant women are moved to Region0. They give birth and then moved back to their place of origin right after the birth. The babies stay there and are raised for 18+5 years (pre-school, school, Uni) and then they audition for their 10 countries of choice (kKinda like the 'draft' in the NBA)
- lisper 3y ago
  > What would the system be as an alternative? You are born stateless and have the ability to declare (or in harsher terms, need to audition for) citizenship to a country of your choosing? That sounds like a fine plan to me. "Auditioning" could consist of military or other volunteer service. > At what age? 18, unless you're an orphan or emancipated, in which case you can do it sooner. Before that you inherit the citizenship of your parents or legal guardians, but only until you turn 18. Then you have to choose. Most people would choose to retain the citizenship they grew up with, but it would have to be an affirmative decision. I don't think it's right to be a citizen of a country to which you have not pledged allegiance as an adult.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    I think Starship Troopers explored this a bit, but I only saw the movie and never read the book.
    - technothrasher 3y ago
      The movie satirically pokes fun at this sort of system. The book takes it seriously.
phantom784 3y ago
It's effectively a legally enshrined global class system. While I don't think it's practical to just abolish the concept overnight, I do think it's ultimately the direction we should try and move in. The freedom of movement the EU offers is a step in this direction, and something I'd like to see more of.
- OkayPhysicist 3y ago
  I strongly disagree. The citizenship is a set of mutual rights and responsibilities between the citizen and their country, and a country should be under no obligation to allow people to live there that refuse to partake in their responsibilities. Should it be easier to immigrate? Probably. But the moment a country gives up the ability to govern their membership, they cease to be sovereign.
  - Brian_K_White 3y ago
    That doesn't require passports and controlled movements. Wherever you are today, you have to conform to all local laws regardless where you came from yesterday or go to tomorrow. I don't see any honorable excuse not to give anyone the same rights and expect the same responsibilities. Every problem you can state has an infinity of possible solutions, not just that one.

by lisper 3y ago

resolutebat 3y ago

https://archive.is/2023.11.28-214421/https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2023/11/25/virginia-doctor-passport-citizenship-nightmare/ https://archive.is/2023.11.28-214421/https://www.washingtonp... Although as described, the story doesn't quite add up. The government is denying citizenship because his father was a diplomat at the time he was born, but he says his father only took a temporary job at the embassy, which would usually not qualify for diplomatic immunity.

454548s 3y ago

[flagged]

atemerev 3y ago
Things will end with all countries gone, eventually.
- 454548s 3y ago
  [flagged]

globular-toast 3y ago

One especially bizarre part of US citizenship is you can "accidentally" be a citizen without knowing and be required to pay income tax to the US regardless of where you live/work. What's more is it costs money to give up your US citizenship and you can only do it if you have no outstanding tax to pay.

User23 3y ago
Worldwide taxation is practically an operational necessity for the worldwide reserve currency issuer.
- FpUser 3y ago
  I see zero basis for such claim
- zlg_codes 3y ago
  The US has no moral right to ask for tax for people who haven't stepped inside its borders all year.
  - User23 3y ago
    Of course it does if they have willingly chosen to participate in its ledger game and use its services.
seanmcdirmid 3y ago
> be required to pay income tax to the US regardless of where you live/work. While technically true, you are only really required to file, and then exempt your income via the foreign earned income exemption or the foreign tax credit. This one simple trick means 95% of all Americans working abroad pay no US tax.
- OfSanguineFire 3y ago
  Apparently if one is a sole proprietor in a country that does not have the respective tax treaty with the US, one can be obliged to pay US Social Security and Medicare out of foreign income. I lack any expertise in this domain, but friends of mine who have returned to Romania (which lacks a treaty) after living in the US long enough for citizenship, have complained about having to set up a corporate structure and pay themselves via annual dividends in order to avoid this taxation.

seanmcdirmid 3y ago

I've never had a problem with passport renewal in the USA. If you do it abroad, it is even expedited by default. It is really hard to mess up the photo, though the places that can do it reliably are increasingly small (you are better off going with an app these days and then using photo printing).

corbet 3y ago
Earlier this year I had to cancel a trip to the south Pacific because, it turns out, four months is no longer enough time for an "expedited" passport renewal. Appointments for urgent-travel renewals are not available in the US no matter how many hours you spend in the State Department phone system. It has gone downhill in a big way. Bonus lesson that I learned too late: if you're in need of an urgent passport renewal, complain to your senator; I got an appointment within a week once I did that.
- cozzyd 3y ago
  I got an urgent travel appointment for my toddler about a month ago with little trouble, though I suspect it would be more difficult in the summer. We got her (first ever!) passport on the same day as the appointment, 1 week after calling to make it and 4 days before our planned trip to Canada. It's probably easier if you don't apply for your passport ahead of time because you can get your appointment up to 14 days before. I am lucky to live a few blocks from a passport center though, it's not really practical for everyone, and of course, there's no guarantee that an appointment would have been available.

atemerev 3y ago

And I want to renounce my current citizenship and live as a stateless person, which would be preferable compared to my current citizenship. Unfortunately, there isn't a way to do that, unless you already have some other citizenship, which I don't.

phantom784 3y ago
Can you share what country you want to give up citizenship from? It's hard to imagine that being stateless would be preferable in most cases.
- atemerev 3y ago
  Russia.

lastofthemojito 3y ago

> For some unknown number of weeks I will be in limbo, unable to legally leave the country, at the whims of the mail and some unknown bureaucrat who may or may not decide to grant my renewal or decide that the photo I've submitted is not quite the right size or whatever. Agreed that the system sucks and is generally antiquated. That being said, if you travel frequently and need to avoid that limbo state, you may be able to maintain a second US passport: https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/passports/have-passport/second-passport-book.html https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/passports/have-pa...

orangepurple 3y ago

FTA: the doctor did not receive a new passport; instead, he received a letter from the State Department stating that he should not have been granted citizenship at the time of his birth because his father was a diplomat with the Embassy of Iran.

OfSanguineFire 3y ago

> unable to legally leave the country I am having a hard time understanding why, help me out. I’m not sure about airports, but the US doesn’t check passports on the way out at land borders, so you could walk from the US into Mexico without the US side checking, and then when the Mexican official asks you, you could just present your German passport. Of course American citizens are obliged to reenter the US on their American passport, but if you are getting the new US passport back by post, couldn’t you have a family member DHL it to wherever you are outside the US?

lisper 3y ago
> you could walk from the US into Mexico Yes, but I wouldn't be able to come back. And Mexico is the only place I could go. So strictly speaking I overstated a bit when I said I could not leave the country. I could leave, but I would not be able to travel freely like I can now.

tenpies 3y ago

> unable to legally leave the country Just a small distinction: you are free to legally leave the US at any time. The US has no exit controls[1]. They do not even monitor who leaves at all, so they have no real idea or care, about who is leaving the country. It is perfectly legal to leave the US without a US passport, or any type of passport or ID. Now the countries that share borders with the US, may not let you enter through a legal port of entry, but the US is not stopping you from leaving. --- [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_control#Exit_controls https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_control#Exit_controls This freedom should not be taken for granted, as countries accross the entire spectrum of tyranny do monitor exits - from China to the Schengen Area countries, and many in-between. And if you want to see it taken a step further, scroll down to the exit permit system, where it would be illegal for you to leave your own country, unless you have an exit visa.

lisper 3y ago
> the US is not stopping you from leaving That's true, but it doesn't help much because I can't just leave. I have to go somewhere. No airline nor cruise ship will allow me to board an international flight or cruise without a passport, nor will Canada allow me to enter without one. That leaves Mexico. So yes, I suppose I could go to Mexico, but then I could not return.
- pas 3y ago
  you don't have a passport from Germany?
- OfSanguineFire 3y ago
  Why can’t you enter Canada on your German passport?
  - lisper 3y ago
    Probably, but then I couldn't come back.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

supernova87a 3y ago

What would the system be as an alternative? You are born stateless and have the ability to declare (or in harsher terms, need to audition for) citizenship to a country of your choosing? At what age? The notion of having no state is kind of an impracticality, do we accept that as a given?

HenryBemis 3y ago
That's a great(?) dystopian movie scenario. All pregnant women are moved to Region0. They give birth and then moved back to their place of origin right after the birth. The babies stay there and are raised for 18+5 years (pre-school, school, Uni) and then they audition for their 10 countries of choice (kKinda like the 'draft' in the NBA)
lisper 3y ago
> What would the system be as an alternative? You are born stateless and have the ability to declare (or in harsher terms, need to audition for) citizenship to a country of your choosing? That sounds like a fine plan to me. "Auditioning" could consist of military or other volunteer service. > At what age? 18, unless you're an orphan or emancipated, in which case you can do it sooner. Before that you inherit the citizenship of your parents or legal guardians, but only until you turn 18. Then you have to choose. Most people would choose to retain the citizenship they grew up with, but it would have to be an affirmative decision. I don't think it's right to be a citizen of a country to which you have not pledged allegiance as an adult.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  I think Starship Troopers explored this a bit, but I only saw the movie and never read the book.
  - technothrasher 3y ago
    The movie satirically pokes fun at this sort of system. The book takes it seriously.

phantom784 3y ago

It's effectively a legally enshrined global class system. While I don't think it's practical to just abolish the concept overnight, I do think it's ultimately the direction we should try and move in. The freedom of movement the EU offers is a step in this direction, and something I'd like to see more of.

OkayPhysicist 3y ago
I strongly disagree. The citizenship is a set of mutual rights and responsibilities between the citizen and their country, and a country should be under no obligation to allow people to live there that refuse to partake in their responsibilities. Should it be easier to immigrate? Probably. But the moment a country gives up the ability to govern their membership, they cease to be sovereign.
- Brian_K_White 3y ago
  That doesn't require passports and controlled movements. Wherever you are today, you have to conform to all local laws regardless where you came from yesterday or go to tomorrow. I don't see any honorable excuse not to give anyone the same rights and expect the same responsibilities. Every problem you can state has an infinity of possible solutions, not just that one.