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Framework Laptop 16 Deep Dive – Connectors

138 points by jonah-archive 3y ago

samcat116 3y ago
I remember when I used to do laptop repairs in college (we were a certified Apple repair center), Apple had a great training on all the different types of internal connectors, how you should handle them, etc. Some of them are really, really fragile.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >Some of them are really, really fragile. When you do your own repairs especially the first time, you find that out the hard way, and then you're more careful the next time ;)
dthakur 3y ago
Good article. Ended too early. Let's keep going.
- FloatArtifact 3y ago
  Yeah it felt really weird getting to the end of the deep dive thinking there should be more here.
  - nrp 3y ago
    We try to keep the newsletter/blog posts as accessible and digestible as we can, but we have deeper technical detail on the interconnect scheme on GitHub: https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/ExpansionBay https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/ExpansionBay
Robelius 3y ago
I appreciate seeing a hint at the history of the design changes, but now I'm left wanting more. Seeing a cross-section view (CT scan or CAD) that shows how the connectors are mating or secured would probably help me visualize how these are being used.
- nrp 3y ago
  If anyone wants to lend us access to a CT machine, we’d love to share that! We do have some CAD at https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/ExpansionBay https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/ExpansionBay
  - xnzakg 3y ago
    Maybe try to get in touch with Lumafield? They do CT scanning (and managed to make themselves known through "Scan of the Month" lumafield.com scanofthemonth.com
  - genmud 3y ago
    Many universities will do this for a very inexpensive / low cost. I think the rates for my local university is like $100-150/hour for 50 micron scans?
FirmwareBurner 3y ago
My biggest disapointment on the Framework 16 is that I imagined the bay to be hot-swappable, or at least cold-swappable, like you keep the GPU unit in the laptop while it's on your desk docked to your monitor, and when yo head out, you swap the GPU module for a battery module and off you go. At least that's what I hoped for, but no, that's not how it works, you need some screwing and unscrewing to swap them out, it not something that can be quickly done before you leave the house. Sad. Maybe the next model.
- organsnyder 3y ago
  That sounds like a better use-case for an eGPU.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    The module on the framework basically is an e-gpu except directly on PCIE instead of thunderbolt. Why they couldn't make it quick swappable I don't know.
    - CuriousCosmic 3y ago
      Hotswappable PCIE is really hard to do right, especially if you are using a non-standard connector. You have to guarantee that pins connect and disconnect in the right order or you risk damaging equipment. And on top of that, while a connector might be perfectly safe with cold swap (i.e. power off), you can damage the connector if the circuit is completed and power starts flowing but you only have partial contact. So it was probably preferable to just release a coldswap versions and try dabbling with a hotswap capable chassis in the future.
      - adgjlsfhk1 3y ago
        it seems like the right approach would be to have a switch that disconnects the wires while the GPU is being connected to ensure everything is connected physically before anything is connected electricly.
delta_p_delta_x 3y ago
> attempts from other brands at making a modular graphics system in a notebook i.e. Dell. > the off-the-shelf FXBeam connector from Neoconix So that's the company that makes the Dell Graphics Form Factor (DGFF) connectors[1], and that's why they're called beam connectors in the service manual[2] (search for it on that page; notice how similar the connectors are to Framework's). These have been used in Dell Precision workstations since the Precision 7530 and 7730 (released in 2018). I ought to have realised that surely Dell didn't develop this themselves. > We quickly found that these connectors (on the left in the image) could only reliably be installed once. On removing, handling, and reinstalling, it was easy to bend or break off the small pins. After working with these connectors, they require some finesse, but they're not as fragile as the post makes them out to be. They're essentially tiny LGA sockets. Dell's implementation put the pins on the connectors and the contacts on the board, so the cheaper (and more disposable) component could break more easily. I'm not sure why Framework decided to forgo the connector and try to join both graphics card and motherboard directly together; this isn't addressed in the blog post. That being said, 'beam connectors' still aren't cheap, though; when I asked Dell's service centre for spares, I was quoted something like SGD20/connector. They're roughly the same price on eBay[3]. [1]: https://i.imgur.com/aMal40L.jpeg https://i.imgur.com/aMal40L.jpeg [2]: https://www.dell.com/support/manuals/en-uk/precision-15-7560-laptop/precision_7560_sm/removing-the-system-board?guid=guid-4a968c20-fdba-4944-b1ab-7dbca12490a0&lang=en-us#:~:text=Remove%20the%20FPC%20beam%20connectors%20from%20the%20computer https://www.dell.com/support/manuals/en-uk/precision-15-7560.... [3]: https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=NGRJG&_sacat=0 https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313...
- robotnikman 3y ago
  I remember they and other vendors used to use a connector called MXM[1] for their graphics cards, as an attempt to create an industry standard. It looked promising, but seems to have fallen out of favor since then. I don't thing any ne GPU's have been released using MXM since 2019 [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_PCI_Express_Module https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_PCI_Express_Module
  - nrp 3y ago
znpy 3y ago
I’m surprised there’s still no reviews if the framework 16 on YouTube (except some branded content here and there). Did anybody actually get this laptop, so far? I just need to understand if i should hold my breath or (again) go for an used thinkpad. Last time framework didn’t ship to my country (yet), this time… will see.
- wmf 3y ago
  The 16 hasn't been released.
- Deukhoofd 3y ago
  As the opening sentence of the post says: > This is likely our last Framework Laptop 16 Deep Dive before we start shipping, and those of you who ordered one can dive deep on your own They've had some delays with manufacturing (https://community.frame.work/t/second-update-on-framework-laptop-16-shipment-timing/41204 https://community.frame.work/t/second-update-on-framework-la...), which they wanted to resolve before starting large scale manufacturing.
SaulJLH 3y ago
Does anyone know if they plan to release a 'desktop/workstation' form factor? Zero interest in the FF'S they've been consumed with, thus far.
- Centigonal 3y ago
  What's the point of that? Framework's whole thing is that it's modular and repairable. Desktop PCs are already that way.
- Jtsummers 3y ago
  https://www.coolermaster.com/catalog/cases/mainboard-case/framework/ https://www.coolermaster.com/catalog/cases/mainboard-case/fr... A case being made by Cooler Master for the Framework mainboards.
  - BossingAround 3y ago
    Hmm, this is interesting. For now, I have Intel Nuc Extreme, but with those being bought off by Asus, this might be something to consider for me in the future.
mixmastamyk 3y ago
This thing is quite neat and I have a 13... but really was simply looking for a bigger workstation version of it with higher resolution screen and ECC memory. Also I'd like some ports on the back. Why does every manufacturer expect you to like monitor cables running sideways across your desk? Structurally it looks like the 16 could, but they didn't think of it. As it stands, its a bit impractical and there isn't anything about it that would cause me to buy it over a 16" Precision with a 5k screen or something.
- kybernetikos 3y ago
  > Structurally it looks like the 16 could, but they didn't think of it. I think they've probably made the right call. To be properly expandable for graphics cards, you need the flexibility that comes from allowing fairly significant size differences for different configurations, including allowing configurations that don't exist yet. The only reasonable place for a laptop form-factor to grow is out the back. I don't think it's possible therefore to have ports on the back be a standard thing, but perhaps a specific expansion module could have some in the future, since the expansion bay supports 8-lane PCIe 4.0.
  - mixmastamyk 3y ago
    Unfortunately don't need graphics expansion I need a workstation/desktop-replacement build. Believe that is a bigger market than enthusiast/PC-games, but could be wrong. Also the resolution is too low for a graphics/video-editing workstation. Maybe crypto/ai? But heard nothing of a nvidia card so far.
    - kybernetikos 3y ago
      I've been told that the current graphics expansion bay module does in fact have a usb-c port on it although I think this is mainly intended for video use rather than power.
- jwells89 3y ago
  I believe that Thunderbolt/USB-C probably played a role in laptops nearly all moving their ports to the sides. A single cable running from the side to a dock taking care of displays, USB, power, etc isn’t too annoying and easier to plug/unplug than multiple running from the back.
nrp 3y ago
I’m happy to answer any questions anyone has on the connectors or other parts of Framework Laptop 16.
- crossroadsguy 3y ago
  Not a technical one. But are there any plans to make it available for the rest of us?
  - nrp 3y ago
    We’re continuing to add more countries a few at a time as we go. We recently added Italy, Spain, Belgium, and Taiwan.
    - crossroadsguy 3y ago
      By 'rest of us' I meant the third world. We also need better and more open hardware :)
- bubblethink 3y ago
  On the keyboard, I see that insert, home, end, pg up, pg down keys, etc. are multiplexed. I hope there is a thinkpad like layout offered in the future where all these keys are dedicated keys.
  - nrp 3y ago
    The Input Module system means that it's possible to develop a module with additional keys that sits to the side of the keyboard. We have a few members of the community who have started on module projects that accomplish this.
- retrochameleon 3y ago
  Any plans for an ortholinear keyboard layout?
- baybal2 3y ago
  [dead]
grudg3 3y ago
I've expressed my interest in a Framework laptop over a year ago and I still can't get one in NZ. I'm starting to lose interest tbh.
schmorptron 3y ago
Really hoping the community-designed Oculink port works out as it doesn't look like they'll make one officially. I'm not interested in a laptop with an integrated GPU since I'm unlikely to need it much outside of home, but an unconstrained desktop eGPU would allow me to just have one computer instead of two.
- a_dabbler 3y ago
  I currently use a Framework laptop with Razer Core X for my eGPU over the Thunderbolt USBC ports and it works great. I guess the extra throughput Oculink provides might be beneficial for AI or video rendering?
Moldoteck 3y ago
Do ppl know if battery issues were resolved? Did amd cpu help?

138 points by jonah-archive 3y ago

I remember when I used to do laptop repairs in college (we were a certified Apple repair center), Apple had a great training on all the different types of internal connectors, how you should handle them, etc. Some of them are really, really fragile.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>Some of them are really, really fragile. When you do your own repairs especially the first time, you find that out the hard way, and then you're more careful the next time ;)

dthakur 3y ago

Good article. Ended too early. Let's keep going.

FloatArtifact 3y ago
Yeah it felt really weird getting to the end of the deep dive thinking there should be more here.
- nrp 3y ago
  We try to keep the newsletter/blog posts as accessible and digestible as we can, but we have deeper technical detail on the interconnect scheme on GitHub: https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/ExpansionBay https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/ExpansionBay

Robelius 3y ago

I appreciate seeing a hint at the history of the design changes, but now I'm left wanting more. Seeing a cross-section view (CT scan or CAD) that shows how the connectors are mating or secured would probably help me visualize how these are being used.

nrp 3y ago
If anyone wants to lend us access to a CT machine, we’d love to share that! We do have some CAD at https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/ExpansionBay https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/ExpansionBay
- xnzakg 3y ago
  Maybe try to get in touch with Lumafield? They do CT scanning (and managed to make themselves known through "Scan of the Month" lumafield.com scanofthemonth.com
- genmud 3y ago
  Many universities will do this for a very inexpensive / low cost. I think the rates for my local university is like $100-150/hour for 50 micron scans?

FirmwareBurner 3y ago

My biggest disapointment on the Framework 16 is that I imagined the bay to be hot-swappable, or at least cold-swappable, like you keep the GPU unit in the laptop while it's on your desk docked to your monitor, and when yo head out, you swap the GPU module for a battery module and off you go. At least that's what I hoped for, but no, that's not how it works, you need some screwing and unscrewing to swap them out, it not something that can be quickly done before you leave the house. Sad. Maybe the next model.

organsnyder 3y ago
That sounds like a better use-case for an eGPU.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  The module on the framework basically is an e-gpu except directly on PCIE instead of thunderbolt. Why they couldn't make it quick swappable I don't know.
  - CuriousCosmic 3y ago
    Hotswappable PCIE is really hard to do right, especially if you are using a non-standard connector. You have to guarantee that pins connect and disconnect in the right order or you risk damaging equipment. And on top of that, while a connector might be perfectly safe with cold swap (i.e. power off), you can damage the connector if the circuit is completed and power starts flowing but you only have partial contact. So it was probably preferable to just release a coldswap versions and try dabbling with a hotswap capable chassis in the future.
    - adgjlsfhk1 3y ago
      it seems like the right approach would be to have a switch that disconnects the wires while the GPU is being connected to ensure everything is connected physically before anything is connected electricly.

delta_p_delta_x 3y ago

> attempts from other brands at making a modular graphics system in a notebook i.e. Dell. > the off-the-shelf FXBeam connector from Neoconix So that's the company that makes the Dell Graphics Form Factor (DGFF) connectors[1], and that's why they're called beam connectors in the service manual[2] (search for it on that page; notice how similar the connectors are to Framework's). These have been used in Dell Precision workstations since the Precision 7530 and 7730 (released in 2018). I ought to have realised that surely Dell didn't develop this themselves. > We quickly found that these connectors (on the left in the image) could only reliably be installed once. On removing, handling, and reinstalling, it was easy to bend or break off the small pins. After working with these connectors, they require some finesse, but they're not as fragile as the post makes them out to be. They're essentially tiny LGA sockets. Dell's implementation put the pins on the connectors and the contacts on the board, so the cheaper (and more disposable) component could break more easily. I'm not sure why Framework decided to forgo the connector and try to join both graphics card and motherboard directly together; this isn't addressed in the blog post. That being said, 'beam connectors' still aren't cheap, though; when I asked Dell's service centre for spares, I was quoted something like SGD20/connector. They're roughly the same price on eBay[3]. [1]: https://i.imgur.com/aMal40L.jpeg https://i.imgur.com/aMal40L.jpeg [2]: https://www.dell.com/support/manuals/en-uk/precision-15-7560-laptop/precision_7560_sm/removing-the-system-board?guid=guid-4a968c20-fdba-4944-b1ab-7dbca12490a0&lang=en-us#:~:text=Remove%20the%20FPC%20beam%20connectors%20from%20the%20computer https://www.dell.com/support/manuals/en-uk/precision-15-7560.... [3]: https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=NGRJG&_sacat=0 https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313...

robotnikman 3y ago
I remember they and other vendors used to use a connector called MXM[1] for their graphics cards, as an attempt to create an industry standard. It looked promising, but seems to have fallen out of favor since then. I don't thing any ne GPU's have been released using MXM since 2019 [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_PCI_Express_Module https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_PCI_Express_Module
- nrp 3y ago

znpy 3y ago

I’m surprised there’s still no reviews if the framework 16 on YouTube (except some branded content here and there). Did anybody actually get this laptop, so far? I just need to understand if i should hold my breath or (again) go for an used thinkpad. Last time framework didn’t ship to my country (yet), this time… will see.

wmf 3y ago
The 16 hasn't been released.
Deukhoofd 3y ago
As the opening sentence of the post says: > This is likely our last Framework Laptop 16 Deep Dive before we start shipping, and those of you who ordered one can dive deep on your own They've had some delays with manufacturing (https://community.frame.work/t/second-update-on-framework-laptop-16-shipment-timing/41204 https://community.frame.work/t/second-update-on-framework-la...), which they wanted to resolve before starting large scale manufacturing.

SaulJLH 3y ago

Does anyone know if they plan to release a 'desktop/workstation' form factor? Zero interest in the FF'S they've been consumed with, thus far.

Centigonal 3y ago
What's the point of that? Framework's whole thing is that it's modular and repairable. Desktop PCs are already that way.
Jtsummers 3y ago
https://www.coolermaster.com/catalog/cases/mainboard-case/framework/ https://www.coolermaster.com/catalog/cases/mainboard-case/fr... A case being made by Cooler Master for the Framework mainboards.
- BossingAround 3y ago
  Hmm, this is interesting. For now, I have Intel Nuc Extreme, but with those being bought off by Asus, this might be something to consider for me in the future.

mixmastamyk 3y ago

This thing is quite neat and I have a 13... but really was simply looking for a bigger workstation version of it with higher resolution screen and ECC memory. Also I'd like some ports on the back. Why does every manufacturer expect you to like monitor cables running sideways across your desk? Structurally it looks like the 16 could, but they didn't think of it. As it stands, its a bit impractical and there isn't anything about it that would cause me to buy it over a 16" Precision with a 5k screen or something.

kybernetikos 3y ago
> Structurally it looks like the 16 could, but they didn't think of it. I think they've probably made the right call. To be properly expandable for graphics cards, you need the flexibility that comes from allowing fairly significant size differences for different configurations, including allowing configurations that don't exist yet. The only reasonable place for a laptop form-factor to grow is out the back. I don't think it's possible therefore to have ports on the back be a standard thing, but perhaps a specific expansion module could have some in the future, since the expansion bay supports 8-lane PCIe 4.0.
- mixmastamyk 3y ago
  Unfortunately don't need graphics expansion I need a workstation/desktop-replacement build. Believe that is a bigger market than enthusiast/PC-games, but could be wrong. Also the resolution is too low for a graphics/video-editing workstation. Maybe crypto/ai? But heard nothing of a nvidia card so far.
  - kybernetikos 3y ago
    I've been told that the current graphics expansion bay module does in fact have a usb-c port on it although I think this is mainly intended for video use rather than power.
jwells89 3y ago
I believe that Thunderbolt/USB-C probably played a role in laptops nearly all moving their ports to the sides. A single cable running from the side to a dock taking care of displays, USB, power, etc isn’t too annoying and easier to plug/unplug than multiple running from the back.

nrp 3y ago

I’m happy to answer any questions anyone has on the connectors or other parts of Framework Laptop 16.

crossroadsguy 3y ago
Not a technical one. But are there any plans to make it available for the rest of us?
- nrp 3y ago
  We’re continuing to add more countries a few at a time as we go. We recently added Italy, Spain, Belgium, and Taiwan.
  - crossroadsguy 3y ago
    By 'rest of us' I meant the third world. We also need better and more open hardware :)
bubblethink 3y ago
On the keyboard, I see that insert, home, end, pg up, pg down keys, etc. are multiplexed. I hope there is a thinkpad like layout offered in the future where all these keys are dedicated keys.
- nrp 3y ago
  The Input Module system means that it's possible to develop a module with additional keys that sits to the side of the keyboard. We have a few members of the community who have started on module projects that accomplish this.
retrochameleon 3y ago
Any plans for an ortholinear keyboard layout?
baybal2 3y ago
[dead]

grudg3 3y ago

I've expressed my interest in a Framework laptop over a year ago and I still can't get one in NZ. I'm starting to lose interest tbh.

schmorptron 3y ago

Really hoping the community-designed Oculink port works out as it doesn't look like they'll make one officially. I'm not interested in a laptop with an integrated GPU since I'm unlikely to need it much outside of home, but an unconstrained desktop eGPU would allow me to just have one computer instead of two.

a_dabbler 3y ago
I currently use a Framework laptop with Razer Core X for my eGPU over the Thunderbolt USBC ports and it works great. I guess the extra throughput Oculink provides might be beneficial for AI or video rendering?

Moldoteck 3y ago

Do ppl know if battery issues were resolved? Did amd cpu help?