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Fukuoka court rules ban on dual nationality is constitutional
- windowshopping 3y agoI know a couple of Japanese-American kids who grew up in the US and were forced to choose when they turned 18. There was no way they were giving up American nationality, so they sadly had to give up their Japanese nationality, which they did not want to do but was the lesser of two evils. This law is so outdated and unfortunate.
- Grimburger 3y ago>This law is so outdated and unfortunate. What's your thoughts on the people who have citizenship and hold passports for dozens of countries? Would you consider them "citizens" of your country? There's nothing outdated about it. Dual/multi citizenship is the weird concept here, it's used solely to skirt laws and taxation. Why do your friends need Japanese citizenship?
- OfSanguineFire 3y ago"Solely"? You didn't think this through well. Dual citizenship very often comes from being born to parents of two different nationalities under ius sanguinis, and then the two passports might even be essential for being able to regularly visit both sides of the family without having to deal with the visa issues that could arise from one of the passports being weak. Countries with diasporas to the US or other wealthy countries often permit dual citizenship because they want some of that diaspora to return, at least to retire, and bring some of that wealth back, and letting them keep their old citizenship leaves the door open for that.
- Grimburger 3y ago>and bring some of that wealth back Would they do that if there wasn't monetary advantages? Absolutely nothing is stopping them sending a remittance like many of the world already do. There's significant differences between jurisdictions for company rates and capital gains, that world really opens up with a few different passports. Having lived in quite a few countries, I don't buy it, these people pick and choose as they please while others not able to get 2,3 or 7 passports pay for those folks benefit to extract as much as possible. I'm with the Asian countries on this one, it's a sham. Many of my friends make jokes about this stuff and illegally hold dual/tri citizenship in the west despite their own country not recognising it, getting caught for that is quite hard. >that diaspora to return, at least to retire Is this not an admission that it's used to take money from other countries they once put hand on heart to support in a pledge of allegiance and go retire with $2/hr maids plus an on-call chef only to return for healthcare and pension reasons in old age? That's not a hypothetical, I've seen this unashamedly happen with friends parents.
- anaisbetts 3y ago> There's nothing outdated about it. Dual/multi citizenship is the weird concept here, it's used solely to skirt laws and taxation. This is absolute nonsense. There are many, many scenarios where people end up with dual citizenship that are entirely valid. Forcibly disenfranchising someone of their oftentimes born Right to be a citizen of a country is the Crime here.
- Grimburger 3y ago> their oftentimes born Right I know people with Italian citizenship simply because of their grandparent. They've never once been to Italy, can't speak the language nor have any plans to do so, they mock their own culture all the time. Meanwhile having lived there for a year and can handle the language reasonably well after that time, my chances for naturalisation are basically nil. "Born right" is a hilarious concept.
- windowshopping 3y agoThere's a pretty huge difference between dual nationality - which anyone could end up with purely by virtue of having parents from different countries - and "dozens" of nationalities. Conflating these two cases and acting like the latter is the norm is such a nonsensical thing to say that it makes it clear you're arguing in bad faith, so I'm not going to respond any further to what you've said. You don't actually want to talk about this, you just want people to have your opinion.
- Grimburger 3y ago> it makes it clear you're arguing in bad faith You really think that people with dual nationality don't use whichever one suits them most in all sorts of matters regarding taxation, diplomatic assistance and travel? To pretend that people won't try to gain whatever edge they can in life with the tools available is the nonsensical thing here. A dual Malaysian/Australian citizen, which passport do you think they are using heading into LAX? Which passport do you think they will use visiting Iran? Dual citizenship is a furphy, I'm with the Asian countries on this one. Choose a side.
- gramie 3y agoThey would have had to choose at 20, not 18 (in Japan, 20 is the age of majority). Also, no one comes after you to choose. Perhaps when you renew your passport, but I do know some Japanese people who just never filled out the paperwork to select a nationality, and continued with both citizenships. Kind of Schroedinger's passport.
- windowshopping 3y agoYou're right, the ones who had to choose were turning 20. I misspoke because I didn't examine the memory closely enough.
- nearting 3y agoIt depends on when this happened. It's two years after you reach the age of majority, which was 20 for a long time but is now 18. Since 2022 you have until 20 to decide, down from 22 previously: https://www.moj.go.jp/EN/MINJI/minji06.html https://www.moj.go.jp/EN/MINJI/minji06.html
- nearting 3y agoA lot of consulates don't enforce the choice of nationality. Every time I renew my Japanese passport in the US I need to show proof of lawful residence, which is my American passport. I just get handed a brochure about choosing and it doesn't get brought up again until the next renewal.
- mirashii 3y agoWaiting til 20 works only if you're willing to wait to accept the benefits of US Citizenship until you are 20. My mother was in this category, and shortly after she registered to vote in the US, she received a letter stating that her Japanese citizenship was therefore revoked.
- yieldcrv 3y agothey should be first notified and allowed to choose, at the very least, not automatically stripped of one. someone could wind up stateless this way, when both countries are acting the same way at the same time. also, exit stamps? Japan is really backwards in this way.
- OfSanguineFire 3y agoMost developed countries stamp on the way out. The USA is an odd man out in not checking passports of outgoing people at border crossings. Even in Schengen where a computer system was rolled out that automatically flags overstays, etc., it is still common for passport control to scrutinize foreigners' stamps just in case some previous passport control didn't properly enter the movement into the computer system.
- globular-toast 3y agoCome to think of it, the UK doesn't check passports on the way out either.
- Symbiote 3y agoNowadays many countries look at the passport, but don't physically stamp it. They keep their own electronic record, and don't put it where other countries can see it.
- phantom784 3y agoSounds like it's far from automatic. (Well, perhaps "legally" you automatically lose it, but there's no system that actually tells Japan that one of their citizens has gotten another citizenship.) She became a U.S. citizen in 2004. After traveling back and forth between her home countries with both nationalities for years, she was flagged as being a dual citizen in 2017 — first at a passport office in Tokyo, where her passport was confiscated and her application rejected, and then by airport immigration officials when they realized she was exiting Japan with an American passport that had no entrance stamp. So it took them 13 years to figure this out, and if she were actively trying to conceal her US citizenship, could probably have held both indefinitely.
- lxe 3y agoDual citizenship isn't allowed in around 25 percent of countries. Still, if you gain US citizenship, you don't technically have to do anything to revoke your citizenship in your original country, but they can revoke it for you if they have the resources.
- Andrew_nenakhov 3y agoCountries that ban dual citizenship look like that jealous friend who gets upset when you to hang out with your other friends.
- SuperNinKenDo 3y agoEh. It's more complex than that. Citizenship represents a kind of mutual obligation and tethering, for better and worse. While a metaphor of monogamy vs polygamy is probably too far, I'm struggling to come up with some other analogy. I'm a dual citizen for the record, and believe in having it, but I do believe it is something to be taken seriously.
- VancouverMan 3y agoJoking aside, those countries have a very sensible policy. While multi-citizenship may offer some benefits, it also results in numerous problems, too. We see these problems in Canada far too often, for example. One issue is the Canadian-of-convenience problem. This involves people who have Canadian citizenship and some other citizenship, but spend all of their time outside of Canada, often for years or even decades at a time. Despite having no real ties to Canada, and despite not paying Canadian taxes, these individuals will flee back to Canada, possibly at the expense of Canadian taxpayers, if they face difficulties (such as a war breaking out) in the foreign nation where they actually live. The opposite of that can happen, too, where foreign citizenship might be used to help somebody avoid criminal prosecution for crimes they committed in Canada. Birth tourism is another problem. Multiple citizenship also exposes people in Canada to a greater risk of foreign influence and foreign interference. This is especially true for politicians, and it certainly raises questions about where their loyalty may rest. It also results in disruption in Canada due to foreign conflicts or disagreements (often ones that are happening on literally the opposite side of the world and don't otherwise involve Canada in any way) spilling over into Canada. Pretty much every international conflict leads to disruptive protests in Canada's major cities, for example. Sometimes these foreign issues can even start affecting Canadian elections. With maybe the exception of Canadian-US dual citizenship, due to the proximity and close ties between the two nations, Canada should do away with multi-citizenship completely.
- lisper 3y agoThe whole system of citizenship is bizarre. I am a citizen of two countries, neither of which I have ever pledged fealty to. I am a citizen of Germany because I was born there and my parents were citizens at the time, and I am a citizen of the U.S. because my parents were naturalized when I was a minor. And I am keenly aware that there are millions of people who would literally risk their lives for either of those citizenships. And then there are horror stories like this one: https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2023/11/25/virginia-doctor-passport-citizenship-nightmare/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2023/11/25/virginia-... Next year I am going to renew my U.S. passport. For some unknown number of weeks I will be in limbo, unable to legally leave the country, at the whims of the mail and some unknown bureaucrat who may or may not decide to grant my renewal or decide that the photo I've submitted is not quite the right size or whatever. The whole system sucks big fat honking weenies.
- resolutebat 3y agohttps://archive.is/2023.11.28-214421/https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2023/11/25/virginia-doctor-passport-citizenship-nightmare/ https://archive.is/2023.11.28-214421/https://www.washingtonp... Although as described, the story doesn't quite add up. The government is denying citizenship because his father was a diplomat at the time he was born, but he says his father only took a temporary job at the embassy, which would usually not qualify for diplomatic immunity.
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- CobaltFire 3y agoThis is something I keep a reasonably close eye on, as both of my children are dual US-Japanese citizens. Both countries require the choice when the child becomes a legal adult, but neither seeks to actively enforce it (unless there is a reason, such as pursuing a security clearance in the US). It’s an odd area of law. EDIT: The statement that they both require the choice was pointed out to me as incorrect. I lived in the classified world for decades, where that choice IS required and incorrectly generalized that.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago> Both countries require the choice when the child becomes a legal adult, What do you mean? The USA is perfectly happy with dual citizenship even if Japan is not.
- CobaltFire 3y agoMy mistake; I lived in the classified world for so long I generalized the requirement there. So we only have to worry about Japan, which in all honesty was the only one we were worrying about.
- themaninthedark 3y agoMy children will have the same dilemma well. What I have heard is that if you renounce your Japanese citizenship, you have to turn in your Japanese passport but if you tell Japan that you are renouncing your American citizenship there are no checks to see if it has been done... I do not know how true it is and I would not recommend breaking the law. There is also the matter of detection; Japan is very strict on watch entry and exit, any use of a non-Japanese passport would be noticed there but is there any way for them to see if you have a second passport beyond that?
- CobaltFire 3y agoRegarding the passport: not that I am aware of. However, if there are no other entry/exit stamps in your Japanese passport they will know you are using another countries elsewhere. I suppose you could get your Japanese passport stamped every time you left and came back, but then the timelines might be an issue. Also, whether or not the customs official even would.
- stingrae 3y agoJapan's rules around citizenship and naturalization are going to have to shift given the countries shrinking population size.
- User23 3y agoWhy? Shrinking population reliably leads to greater quality of life for the masses. The mass deaths of the plague catapulted the surviving Europeans into an affluent middle class. Japan has the benefit of a much more controlled population decline plus the technological sophistication to massively increase automation. Between robotics and AI they’re extremely well positioned. As things stand the next generation of Japanese are facing very pleasant lives.
- bugglebeetle 3y agoUntil you learn about how much it costs to take care of a long-lived aging population on the backs of a dwindling young one. The country will be subsumed into the Chinese sphere of influence to pay for their invested age pyramid before any such rise could occur.
- User23 3y agoThose costs will also be incomes from good high paying healthcare jobs for younger Japanese. A wealth transfer from the old to the young is eusocial. Remember that every expenditure is somebody else’s income! Japan has its own central bank and the willingness to use it. Japan also has a highly advanced, productive, and diversified economy. They will have no problem paying for it themselves. Edit: child doesn't understand the implications of Japan having its own Central Bank: "meaning that cuts or new revenue streams to support it will need to be used" is false. It's unsurprising though, because these same economic falsehoods, pervasively proclaimed, are used to present the enshittification of Western Europe and the USA as being somehow financially necessary.
- notaustinpowers 3y agoHealthcare is a highly specialized and restrictive career due to the education requirements. As 90% of the population utilizes their nationalized healthcare, the cost of healthcare on the government will only increase as they age, meaning that cuts or new revenue streams to support it will need to be used. Since many use nationalized healthcare, the wealth of the older generation does not move to the younger generation by paying for these services. There will not be a migration of wealth like you believe.
- arghwhat 3y agoThis ruling seems to be decent: The judge concludes that the current legislation is valid and stands up to legal challenge, but points out that the legislation may be worth reconsidering as the world has moved in the past 50 years. The venue for changing the law is the parliament, not the courtroom.
- ronsor 3y ago> The venue for changing the law is the parliament, not the courtroom. We got used to the courts doing it in America because of how dysfunctional our legislature tends to be.
- wizerdrobe 3y agoI would say some are used to it, others consider it an affront.
- ared38 3y agoAs I understand it, the US inherited a common law tradition from England that empowers judges to effectively create laws. For example the US Criminal code sets penalties for "assault" but a long series of precedents define the actual crime: > The term “assault” is not defined in the criminal code. Courts use common law to define the term. https://govt.westlaw.com/wcrji/Document/Iefa7d8b5e10d11daade1ae871d9b2cbe?transitionType=Default&contextData=%28sc.Default%29 https://govt.westlaw.com/wcrji/Document/Iefa7d8b5e10d11daade... > There is no indication in the statute that Congress sought to depart from the common-law definition of “simple assault” when using the phrase in § 111. The phrase is not defined in the statute, or indeed in any provision of the U.S. Code. This is the classic case of a statute importing a common-law term—with, therefore, all of its “soil.” Amicus brief from the national association of criminal defense lawyers: https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/21/21-6826/213937/20220211122743436_Smith%20et%20al%20Amicus%20Brief%20ISO%20Petitioner.pdf https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/21/21-6826/213937/202... > Absent a statutory definition of assault, the courts have looked to the common law https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual-1610-assault-18-usc-351e https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual... Judges are usually bound to precedent but can reject precedent in response to novel situations, like the standard of "probable cause" that came out of car stops and searches instead of placing cars entirely in the existing public or private spheres. Policing the Open Road is a great exploration of this. In contrast Japan (and the state of Louisiana) have a legal system derived from the civil law tradition. IANAL so I'll defer to anyone that has corrections.
- Animats 3y agoIt's less of an issue since the US, Japan, and parts of Europe stopped having a military draft. That was the big obligation of citizenship. At the beginning of WWII, there were people who got draft notices from both sides. To fight for either side was treason to the other.
- duffyjp 3y agoThis is great news. My kids are both dual citizens of the US and Japan, born here. I know when they turn 20 they'd pick the US if forced to and that has long stressed me out. They'd be giving up so much and would probably regret it later.
- kazinator 3y agoI first misread this as "unconstitutional", therefore deeming this newsworthy. False alarm.
- AraceliHarker 3y agoUnder Japanese law, only the Supreme Court can rule on the constitutionality of laws. Therefore, a lower court cannot declare a law unconstitutional.