5 ms·
Would be great to see an example of notification metadata that can supposedly link it to real users. Seems like this is what is being implied: Given: - users
by xyst 3y ago
Would be great to see an example of notification metadata that can supposedly link it to real users.
Seems like this is what is being implied:
Given:
- users with notifications enabled
- have X app installed
- targeted user(s) reside in USA
- targeted users(s) following “foo” on X app
When:
- issue FISA warrant for all smartphone users that received notifications in regards to “foo” user
Then:
- able to pull all Apple/Google accounts that match this criteria
- able to get real addresses and names
- can crosscheck names with other details to narrow down suspect
Or maybe it’s something even worse where notifications somehow leak location data
- onionisafruit 3y agoIf they use IP to deliver notifications, then the gov can demand they hand over the IP address a notification was delivered to. From there, location isn’t hard.
- xyst 3y agoIP geolocation isn’t exactly the most precise though. 600M+ IPs have a default location to some farm in Kansas [1] [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/08/10/lawsuit-how-a-quiet-kansas-home-wound-up-with-600-million-ip-addresses-and-a-world-of-trouble/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/08/1...
- onionisafruit 3y agoI should have been more specific. Although they could use IP geolocation, they can also get data from the cell carrier that delivered the notification to that IP address. So a gov finds that IP address 7.8.9.0 received one of these notifications at 12:34. They then see that 7.8.9.0 is one of ATT’s addresses. They go to ATT and learn that address was used by their customer onionisafruit at 12:34 and the device was 5ms away from tower A.
- jaywalk 3y agoNotifications aren't sent to IP addresses, so none of this matters.
- DanAtC 3y agoOf course they are, how else would they be sent?
- Canada 3y agoThat's hardly necessary. I think the attack goes like this: You have captured the device of some group member, and you want to investigate his associates, but you don't know who they are. So you ask Google and Apple: Make a list of all of the devices that have received a push notification sent by <list of messaging apps> where those devices have received at least 200 notifications within 50ms of a notification received by this device. (You will have to make Google or Apple share the list with the target timings with the other) That will give you a list of everyone who is in a group chat with your target, regardless of whether or not the messages were deleted or encrypted. Now you tell Apple/Google to give all the data on those accounts. You will probably find enough in their Gmail/location history/browsing history to identify nearly all associated people without ever bothering to look at IP addresses. This also works if you get into a chat with your target. You send some messages and then have Google/Apple identify their device via timing, then identify all their associates.
- beretguy 3y agoSo, don’t have Twitter account and/or app installed and you should be good?
- kome 3y agono it's more like: don’t have a smartphone and you are good (perhaps).
- beebeepka 3y agoNo, having a dumb phone is not enough. A malicious actor can pretend they need to deliver an SMS to you, which may result in a network disclosing your location (anywhere in the world). Mobile networks probably don't honour aggressive probing for just about any peer but it's not like nobody can do this at scale. None of this is new.
- uoaei 3y agoProtip: the harder a company pushes you to download their app, the more they have to gain from it. 99.999% of the time it's because they want access to as much of your data as they can sneak out of your device, usually for selling it. One notable corollary is, the shittier the mobile browser webapp implementation is, the more they want to push people onto their app. See: Facebook, Twitter, Reddit, etc.
- autoexec 3y agoExactly this. Never install a company's app unless you absolutely need to. Use websites instead whenever possible. If you do need to install an app, uninstall it as soon as possible even if you know you'll need it again at some point.
- x86x87 3y agoWhy bother with this whole process when you can get everything + store & index it yourself? Who knows? Maybe you want to retroactively look at shit peopke received and decide on new crimes.
- xyst 3y agoThey already do this, I think; https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center But since PRISM was exposed ~10 years ago, they have had to resort to using FISA court to scrape data \s
- wahnfrieden 3y agoBuild parallel networks for sections of society to operate and associate outside of what govt has their hands in or with technological guarantees of privacy and safety. I understand this is a tricky constraint to scale but it’s not impossible, current iterative solutions are at hand, and people have coordinated before around successfully building alternative societies in terms of communications, mutual aid, and safety provided to public regardless of family; these are a threat to gov and business though as they minimize people’s reliance on those institutions which is a kind of power money alone can have less control over (so they lean on violence historically - eg battle of blair mountain). I believe technology uniquely makes it possible to scale potential solutions because of how much it’s cheapened unit cost and labor cost thru automation and commodity and open src
- staplers 3y agoApple's own developer documentation outlines how notifications can trigger when crossing a physical boundary. Apps notifications can trigger if you enter a "protest zone" for example then gov will know everyone who was there.
- callalex 3y agoThat location determination is done on-device.
- staplers 3y agoBut the notification receipt is sent home.
- mistrial9 3y agoCalifornia with the support of Gavin Newsom is building "no go" zones for wildfire response. Sounds OK except - a video recording of a local Mayor at a wildfire update press conference, asking with deference, when the main highway to his town will re-open, and the response from a tense and aggressive CHP leader was "maybe that road will be closed for six months, maybe next year" with no respect... instantly snapped at a Mayor, on camera. How are these zones decided upon? "immediate area" is not what was being done in that event.
- rsync 3y agoDo you have a link to this ? I would like to see this interaction…
- mistrial9 3y agomuch respect to rsync -- I believe it was a press CalFIRE event during one of the many ultra-serious fires, and I did not record that video. The interaction was distinct in my mind however, for the reason stated here. The town was a smaller town on the edge of a large forested area. The scope-creep and instant-authority of it all, as bad as that is, is dwarfed by the loss of life and property, flora and fauna during the wildfire. In the execution of emergency duties however, all the rules of engagement should be ON, IMHO.
- nonethewiser 3y agoJust to make it crystal clear, we recently learned that the FBI served Twitter a search warrant for Trumps account which gave then access to all of his twitter followers. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-66365643.amp https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-66365643.amp
- saagarjha 3y agoIsn’t an account’s follower list basically public, though?