8 ms·

The claims of Zanzibar being unsafe for LGBTQIA+ communities is ridiculous. I live there and it's the most tolerant place I lived in so far. There are laws, but

by keraf 3y ago

The claims of Zanzibar being unsafe for LGBTQIA+ communities is ridiculous. I live there and it's the most tolerant place I lived in so far. There are laws, but as long as you mind your own business and don't disturb others, you will be left alone. I've even been to same-sex weddings here (between foreigners of course, same-sex relationships are still taboo between locals but they do exist) and have gay friends living on the island that never reported any incident (unlike in Europe). Still, there are some things that should be avoided in public, out of respect for the local population. Kissing and holding hands for example is not well seen, even for heterosexual couples. Despite this, even if you happen to do it in public you will never face verbal or physical aggression from anyone, maybe just some frowns but even that is rare. Pushing our views to countries that are still developing is Neocolonialism at its best. We take our progress in the West for granted, but it took us time to get there. Give the tools for Africans country to develop on their own, they will get there in their own time, there are many other pressing matters to address first.

red_admiral 3y ago
There are various indexes of how LGBT+ friendly countries are. For example, equaldex lists Tanzania as rank 181 out of 197 countries (lower is better), with a total score of 12/100 (higher is better, best is Iceland at 92-100). They list their methodology and how their scores are computed, so if you want to present a factual counter-argument you are welcome to (I'm not an expert on the matter). But it seems to me that there is, prima facie, evidence for the claim that Tanzania is one of the least safe countries for LBGT+ people in the world.
- Planktonne 3y ago
  What's the cut-off value for "not safe to hold a conference"? Is it applied fairly?
- rob74 3y ago
  Never been to Tanzania or Zanzibar, but I would assume that Zanzibar, being dependent on tourism, is more tolerant. Still, if I were gay and that would be punishable with life imprisonment in a country, I would avoid it...
- arp242 3y ago
  That site mostly just looks at legal protections, which don't necessarily say all that much about the "facts on the ground". It also has a few opinion polls, but I don't rate those all that much either. And there can be huge variations within countries, and nuances in what is and isn't considered "bad". There are 61 million people in Tanzania, and it's three times the size of Germany in terms of surface area. It's a big place. A few charts is not a "fact". Or I mean, it is I guess, but that doesn't automatically mean it describes reality in any meaningful way. Obviously Tanzania is not the best place to be gay, but details and nuance does matter, and can make huge differences.
  - niam 3y ago
    Vibes on the ground are not fact. Actionable law is. I agree with the people saying that this is in-effect a wholesale rejection of conferences in Africa, and that we should be mindful of that and work on a compromise. But how is it sensible to expect organizations to act on so-called "facts on the ground"? If those facts haven't already been leveraged to meaningfully affect policy, then there's a burdening question of "why not?"
    - arp242 3y ago
      > Vibes on the ground are not fact. Actionable law is. Is the law actionable? Is it enforced? What do the courts do? How does the police act? There's a million factors that radically change what "the law" says. Weed is illegal in the Netherlands. Always has been. Never been legalized. Going by the "facts" of the law would lead to some views of the country that do not align with any sort of meaningful reality. > But how is it sensible to expect organizations to act on so-called "facts on the ground"? If you don't know the reality of the situation then maybe you shouldn't act at all because you're ignorant about the entire thing? I'm ignorant on this topic too; don't really know anything about Tanzania. But I'm also not claiming things about it, or think I know anything meaningful from ten seconds of scanning a website.
      - niam 3y ago
        > Is the law actionable? Yup. I'm pretty willing to defer to what human rights organizations and the country itself say about their laws. > Weed is illegal in the Netherlands. Which: 1. is something that should change if it's an inaccurate reflection of the country 2. is nonetheless a far discussion from (what should be) a fundamental human right > If you don't know the reality of the situation then maybe you shouldn't act at all because you're ignorant about the entire thing? The Python Software Foundation didn't act on enabling this conference; that's precisely why the OP exists. Your argument, if you're defending the OP, is instead that we should act on our supposed "ignorance" in the face of laws which say one thing and internet people say another thing.
rob74 3y ago
> There are laws, but as long as you mind your own business and don't disturb others, you will be left alone. that's exactly what differentiates developed from developing countries: the rule of law. Not saying that it's perfect in developed countries (far from it), but at least you don't have to fear being arrested and face life imprisonment for something that's "generally tolerated", but in your special case wasn't because the police officer didn't like how you looked, or you didn't pay the customary bribe.
- orbital-decay 3y ago
  How many places in Africa are sufficiently "developed" based on your definition? Should they postpone all Python conferences until they develop the rule of law? People from the countries that implemented progressive policies sometimes show unreasonable arrogance by expecting the whole world to change instantly according to the freedoms they're used to at home.
  - isodev 3y ago
    Or maybe accept that when you’re organising a global event, you need to be able to provide a safe space keeping in mind that you’re hosting guests that don’t necessarily embrace your “way of life”.
    - em-bee 3y ago
      no conference organizer can provide a safe space from the law. the only really safe option is to not go there.
      - n6h6 3y ago
        Yes, that's indeed the point being made.
    - ExoticPearTree 3y ago
      You can't do that. For the same reason Africans might be offended by customs in the US. I feel like this discussion is going places where it was never supposed to go.
dappermanneke 3y ago
zanzibari gays do not exist? they are not locals in your understanding of the word? glad to hear the rich expat bubble in zanzibar is generally tolerant though! you’re only risking a life sentence as a western gay if you can’t afford to bribe the prosecutor, just like most other third world countries
konschubert 3y ago
“There are laws, but as long…” Cool. So you live at the whims of a bunch of corrupt officials and police, who can decide if you should be imprisoned or not. That’s not the same as being free.
noirscape 3y ago
This doesn't change the fact that the laws on the books are the laws on the books. Even if as a foreigner things are "safe in practice", that's not a guaranteed evaluation if the law still criminalizes it. Just because the people you know are safe doesn't protect a possible convention goer who gets a bad run in with the local police and that can result in very bad consequences (prison time) just because they wanted to attend a convention (and raises questions on why a grant for the convention was approved to begin with, given safety is a relevant factor for these). Taking a quick glance at the Wikipedia page about LGBTQ rights in Africa[0] (going for the broad continent page here to see if there are other, less likely to cause problems, candidates for hosting locations), Tanzania is explicitly listed as "Punishable by prison" on the map, which the article text confirms. More broadly speaking, it would seem most of the countries in Africa have a poor track record on LGBTQ rights except for South Africa (although I'd not be surprised if any of the countries listed in grey on the map would've caused less problems with the grant approval, with "no laws either way" not being amazing but at least not inherently discriminatory). This begs the rather obvious question: why not organize in South Africa (or again, any of the more lenient countries), why does it have to be in Tanzania once these issues were brought to light. The PSF clearly has standards they wanted to adhere to for these things and wanting a guaranteed safe space for contributors of all walks of life seems to be an important one. I understand the complications on this one and why the usual process resulted in it being kicked upstairs. Which yes, does suck for the organizers, but again, Tanzania was chosen here and they even admit in the post that preliminary feedback caused a negative response surrounding event safety, so moving the event ought to have been considered with that in mind. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Africa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Africa
PurpleRamen 3y ago
> I live there and it's the most tolerant place I lived in so far. There are laws, but as long as you mind your own business and don't disturb others, you will be left alone. As a local you know how to stay safe. Visitors from other places, other countries, even other cultures lack this knowledge. And you can't except someone who has only third-party-knowledge[1] to trust in the claims of locals with unknown agendas. Taking time to investigate is legit. I mean, it took them only one month to figure it out, and we don't know how much time they had before that september-meeting. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Tanzania https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Tanzania
isodev 3y ago
> Still, there are some things that should be avoided in public Now read this again and imagine yourself in the shoes of someone who needs to suppress who they are in public, just so they don’t get stoned to death or make local narrow minded folk get a headache.
- keraf 3y ago
  > out of respect for the local population. You're a guest, there are some cultural do's and dont's and holding hands in public is one of the latter, even for heterosexual couples. I don't hold hands with my girlfriend in public even though it'd be totally safe to do so, it's disrespectful because it's not the local custom to do so. In contrast, many of my LBGT friends in European capitals fear to show affection with their partner in public, with most having faced harassment and some even assault. According to our European values it should be normal and safe to express affection to our partner in public regardless of our genders, but the reality is sadly different.
  - isodev 3y ago
    And what of trans folks? Are they supposed to not go to the toilet for 3 days so they don't offend your culture? Or when there is small talk, should I change "my husband" into "my wife" just so I don't upset the locals? I hope you see how ridiculous this "just don't show it" is, especially coming from folks who think LGBTQ+ is all about kissing and holing hands. A global event should not be hosted in a country, state or a city where even the organisers are unable to make adequate arrangements for the safety of all attendees and speakers.
    - keraf 3y ago
      As said, Zanzibaris are very tolerant, they will let you exist in peace regardless of how you look, your gender, sexual orientation, religious believes or nationality, they just don't care. I know of trans people spending their holiday here without any incident, at most it was just their taxi driver being curious but at no point they felt unsafe. Don't abuse their tolerance and respect their customs. The same way you'd expect someone to respect you and your house rules if you invite them home. You just have to accept that people live differently in different parts of the world, maybe it's not them that are intolerant. I'm convinced a global tech event can be hosted in Zanzibar where everyone is welcome and safe.

by keraf 3y ago

red_admiral 3y ago

There are various indexes of how LGBT+ friendly countries are. For example, equaldex lists Tanzania as rank 181 out of 197 countries (lower is better), with a total score of 12/100 (higher is better, best is Iceland at 92-100). They list their methodology and how their scores are computed, so if you want to present a factual counter-argument you are welcome to (I'm not an expert on the matter). But it seems to me that there is, prima facie, evidence for the claim that Tanzania is one of the least safe countries for LBGT+ people in the world.

Planktonne 3y ago
What's the cut-off value for "not safe to hold a conference"? Is it applied fairly?
rob74 3y ago
Never been to Tanzania or Zanzibar, but I would assume that Zanzibar, being dependent on tourism, is more tolerant. Still, if I were gay and that would be punishable with life imprisonment in a country, I would avoid it...
arp242 3y ago
That site mostly just looks at legal protections, which don't necessarily say all that much about the "facts on the ground". It also has a few opinion polls, but I don't rate those all that much either. And there can be huge variations within countries, and nuances in what is and isn't considered "bad". There are 61 million people in Tanzania, and it's three times the size of Germany in terms of surface area. It's a big place. A few charts is not a "fact". Or I mean, it is I guess, but that doesn't automatically mean it describes reality in any meaningful way. Obviously Tanzania is not the best place to be gay, but details and nuance does matter, and can make huge differences.
- niam 3y ago
  Vibes on the ground are not fact. Actionable law is. I agree with the people saying that this is in-effect a wholesale rejection of conferences in Africa, and that we should be mindful of that and work on a compromise. But how is it sensible to expect organizations to act on so-called "facts on the ground"? If those facts haven't already been leveraged to meaningfully affect policy, then there's a burdening question of "why not?"
  - arp242 3y ago
    > Vibes on the ground are not fact. Actionable law is. Is the law actionable? Is it enforced? What do the courts do? How does the police act? There's a million factors that radically change what "the law" says. Weed is illegal in the Netherlands. Always has been. Never been legalized. Going by the "facts" of the law would lead to some views of the country that do not align with any sort of meaningful reality. > But how is it sensible to expect organizations to act on so-called "facts on the ground"? If you don't know the reality of the situation then maybe you shouldn't act at all because you're ignorant about the entire thing? I'm ignorant on this topic too; don't really know anything about Tanzania. But I'm also not claiming things about it, or think I know anything meaningful from ten seconds of scanning a website.
    - niam 3y ago
      > Is the law actionable? Yup. I'm pretty willing to defer to what human rights organizations and the country itself say about their laws. > Weed is illegal in the Netherlands. Which: 1. is something that should change if it's an inaccurate reflection of the country 2. is nonetheless a far discussion from (what should be) a fundamental human right > If you don't know the reality of the situation then maybe you shouldn't act at all because you're ignorant about the entire thing? The Python Software Foundation didn't act on enabling this conference; that's precisely why the OP exists. Your argument, if you're defending the OP, is instead that we should act on our supposed "ignorance" in the face of laws which say one thing and internet people say another thing.

rob74 3y ago

> There are laws, but as long as you mind your own business and don't disturb others, you will be left alone. that's exactly what differentiates developed from developing countries: the rule of law. Not saying that it's perfect in developed countries (far from it), but at least you don't have to fear being arrested and face life imprisonment for something that's "generally tolerated", but in your special case wasn't because the police officer didn't like how you looked, or you didn't pay the customary bribe.

orbital-decay 3y ago
How many places in Africa are sufficiently "developed" based on your definition? Should they postpone all Python conferences until they develop the rule of law? People from the countries that implemented progressive policies sometimes show unreasonable arrogance by expecting the whole world to change instantly according to the freedoms they're used to at home.
- isodev 3y ago
  Or maybe accept that when you’re organising a global event, you need to be able to provide a safe space keeping in mind that you’re hosting guests that don’t necessarily embrace your “way of life”.
  - em-bee 3y ago
    no conference organizer can provide a safe space from the law. the only really safe option is to not go there.
    - n6h6 3y ago
      Yes, that's indeed the point being made.
  - ExoticPearTree 3y ago
    You can't do that. For the same reason Africans might be offended by customs in the US. I feel like this discussion is going places where it was never supposed to go.

dappermanneke 3y ago

zanzibari gays do not exist? they are not locals in your understanding of the word? glad to hear the rich expat bubble in zanzibar is generally tolerant though! you’re only risking a life sentence as a western gay if you can’t afford to bribe the prosecutor, just like most other third world countries

konschubert 3y ago

“There are laws, but as long…” Cool. So you live at the whims of a bunch of corrupt officials and police, who can decide if you should be imprisoned or not. That’s not the same as being free.

noirscape 3y ago

This doesn't change the fact that the laws on the books are the laws on the books. Even if as a foreigner things are "safe in practice", that's not a guaranteed evaluation if the law still criminalizes it. Just because the people you know are safe doesn't protect a possible convention goer who gets a bad run in with the local police and that can result in very bad consequences (prison time) just because they wanted to attend a convention (and raises questions on why a grant for the convention was approved to begin with, given safety is a relevant factor for these). Taking a quick glance at the Wikipedia page about LGBTQ rights in Africa[0] (going for the broad continent page here to see if there are other, less likely to cause problems, candidates for hosting locations), Tanzania is explicitly listed as "Punishable by prison" on the map, which the article text confirms. More broadly speaking, it would seem most of the countries in Africa have a poor track record on LGBTQ rights except for South Africa (although I'd not be surprised if any of the countries listed in grey on the map would've caused less problems with the grant approval, with "no laws either way" not being amazing but at least not inherently discriminatory). This begs the rather obvious question: why not organize in South Africa (or again, any of the more lenient countries), why does it have to be in Tanzania once these issues were brought to light. The PSF clearly has standards they wanted to adhere to for these things and wanting a guaranteed safe space for contributors of all walks of life seems to be an important one. I understand the complications on this one and why the usual process resulted in it being kicked upstairs. Which yes, does suck for the organizers, but again, Tanzania was chosen here and they even admit in the post that preliminary feedback caused a negative response surrounding event safety, so moving the event ought to have been considered with that in mind. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Africa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Africa

PurpleRamen 3y ago

> I live there and it's the most tolerant place I lived in so far. There are laws, but as long as you mind your own business and don't disturb others, you will be left alone. As a local you know how to stay safe. Visitors from other places, other countries, even other cultures lack this knowledge. And you can't except someone who has only third-party-knowledge[1] to trust in the claims of locals with unknown agendas. Taking time to investigate is legit. I mean, it took them only one month to figure it out, and we don't know how much time they had before that september-meeting. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Tanzania https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Tanzania

isodev 3y ago

> Still, there are some things that should be avoided in public Now read this again and imagine yourself in the shoes of someone who needs to suppress who they are in public, just so they don’t get stoned to death or make local narrow minded folk get a headache.

keraf 3y ago
> out of respect for the local population. You're a guest, there are some cultural do's and dont's and holding hands in public is one of the latter, even for heterosexual couples. I don't hold hands with my girlfriend in public even though it'd be totally safe to do so, it's disrespectful because it's not the local custom to do so. In contrast, many of my LBGT friends in European capitals fear to show affection with their partner in public, with most having faced harassment and some even assault. According to our European values it should be normal and safe to express affection to our partner in public regardless of our genders, but the reality is sadly different.
- isodev 3y ago
  And what of trans folks? Are they supposed to not go to the toilet for 3 days so they don't offend your culture? Or when there is small talk, should I change "my husband" into "my wife" just so I don't upset the locals? I hope you see how ridiculous this "just don't show it" is, especially coming from folks who think LGBTQ+ is all about kissing and holing hands. A global event should not be hosted in a country, state or a city where even the organisers are unable to make adequate arrangements for the safety of all attendees and speakers.
  - keraf 3y ago
    As said, Zanzibaris are very tolerant, they will let you exist in peace regardless of how you look, your gender, sexual orientation, religious believes or nationality, they just don't care. I know of trans people spending their holiday here without any incident, at most it was just their taxi driver being curious but at no point they felt unsafe. Don't abuse their tolerance and respect their customs. The same way you'd expect someone to respect you and your house rules if you invite them home. You just have to accept that people live differently in different parts of the world, maybe it's not them that are intolerant. I'm convinced a global tech event can be hosted in Zanzibar where everyone is welcome and safe.