5 ms·

You don't need LGBT hunt squads. All you need is the fact that a gay couple holding hands or kissing publicly is unsafe. "Then just don't kiss publicly". Sure,

by Xeamek 3y ago

You don't need LGBT hunt squads. All you need is the fact that a gay couple holding hands or kissing publicly is unsafe. "Then just don't kiss publicly". Sure, hiding one's sexuality isn't that hard, especially for a short period of time. But that's the whole problem: they shouldn't have to hide it in the first place. Home people might know you, but in home country you are against only bigoted individuals, not the entire state. Objectively, will a python conference attended by an African be more dangerous than that person's everyday life? No. But that's not what it's about. What this is about is PSF's having no tolerance for places that are breaking human rights. And if you want to be part of that community and enjoy its perks, you have to adhere to cultural standards that PSF perceives are essential.

DeathArrow 3y ago
>But that's the whole problem: they shouldn't have to hide it in the first place. What does that have to do with Python? You can chose to respect the laws in the country you are in, or not.
- Xeamek 3y ago
  You can also judge if a given law is moral or valid, and take actions based on that. PSF has some moral views and they believe in some standards regardless of given country's law. Why are you so fixated on that?
  - DeathArrow 3y ago
    >PSF has some moral views I thought the reason PSF exists is to promote Python, not to have political views.
    - Xeamek 3y ago
      The main reason of some entity's existence doesn't prevent it from having an additional views, that can even shape the way they execute their primary goal
    - Tao3300 3y ago
      https://www.python.org/psf/mission/ https://www.python.org/psf/mission/ > The mission of the Python Software Foundation is to promote, protect, and advance the Python programming language, and to support and facilitate the growth of a diverse and international community of Python programmers.
      - polski-g 3y ago
        By prohibiting African Python programmers from taking part because of their political views, how does that promote "diverse and international communities"? Are anti-LGBT Africans not diverse enough?
        acdha 3y ago
        Nobody is prohibited from attending based on their political views. It’s only a question of whether those views cause someone to negatively impact other attendees that they have a problem. You can be completely anti-LGBT as long as you’re mature enough to only talk about Python at a Python conference.
        polski-g 3y ago
        They're not funding entire conferences because of how a country decides to vote, even though it has nothing to do with Python or programming.
        acdha 3y ago
        It does have to do with people being free and safe to attend, however. If you see freedom as additive, that’s consistent: the PSF doesn’t want to be associated with conferences which are risky for some people to attend. That doesn’t mean that a different conference can’t be organized, only that they are uncomfortable supporting less free places. I’m fine with that as long as it applies to U.S. states which fail the same concerns.
  - disgruntledphd2 3y ago
    Sure, that's totally fine. However, what is the impact here? Basically the volunteers for a Python conference needed to write an open letter as the conference didn't happen. Like, if the PSF don't want conferences in places where same-sex relationships are prohibited, then they should just make that a policy. Personally, I would disagree with that policy as I don't see how Python relates to said policies, but it would be fine. What's not fine is relatively poor volunteers being forced to guarantee major expenses for a conference because the PSF couldn't make a decision.
- danShumway 3y ago
  What does respecting a law have to do with Python? The venue is safe for the international Python community, or it is not.
culebron21 3y ago
Western countries should then stop giving their "perks" (grants, subsidies, volunteers traveling) to the entire Africa, because it's not up to any standards of culture or human rights. ...And proudly wait till Africa meets them. As the joke says: "they promised to fill the pool as soon as we learn to swim."
A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago
Hey now, just the other people day people on HN argued that forcing a person to adopt some norms is not censorship, because: 1. It is not the government doing it 2. It is not actually speech You can't say you are free to express yourself in one sentence and forbid expression in the next. Either we all have to hide or we can all be free to express ourselves as we see fit.
- Xeamek 3y ago
  You are free to say what you want, and I'm free to take what you are saying into consideration when deciding what in what interaction I will or won't engage with you. What's the contradiction here?
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago
    Simple. By preventing me from self-identifying as an asshole by forcing non-asshole behaviors -- you are infringing on my right to free speech, free association ( or non-association ) and many others such rights. If you cannot see it, you yourself are not free.
    - CyberDildonics 3y ago
      my right to free speech That's about government retaliation. You don't have a right to be free of consequences for anything you say. What you're looking for is a "safe space".
      - A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago
        Oh? So what will you claim exactly when the situation is reversed and you are not free from consequences of your actions? Societal norms are fickle. Are you sure you want rely on those?
        CyberDildonics 3y ago
        No one is free from any and all consequences for their actions. Is this a real question? You may as well accept that your actions have consequences since it is reality. Usually this is a lesson taught to young children while they are still learning to talk.
mdew 3y ago
[dead]
gwervc 3y ago
> But that's the whole problem: they shouldn't have to hide it in the first place. In Rome do as the Romans do. Cultural norms differ by countries and should be respected. Also this kind of indignation is very selective, I've never read a software fundation complaining about it being unsafe to travel as a christian in Marocco (where owing a bible is forbidden by law) for example.
- LightHugger 3y ago
  Based on limited research, owning and selling bibles is allowed there but missionary work is not allowed.
  - Tao3300 3y ago
    How many pounds of Bible do I have to have on me for it to count as intent to evangelize?
- Xeamek 3y ago
  >In Rome do as the Romans do. Cultural norms differ by countries and should be respected. Only to a degree where those cultural norms are acceptable.
  - ExoticPearTree 3y ago
    Then don't go if you feel like the norms are not acceptable to you. In this day and age is not that hard do do a little research before going to a place you've never been before.
- viraptor 3y ago
  > where owing a bible is forbidden by law That's not a great comparison. You can choose if you bring a Bible with you or not - this seems like a law about Bibles, not about being a Christian. You can't choose to not be gay/trans for some time - even if you hide it, the relevant records may be public and easy to find if some law enforcement.
- OfSanguineFire 3y ago

by Xeamek 3y ago

DeathArrow 3y ago

>But that's the whole problem: they shouldn't have to hide it in the first place. What does that have to do with Python? You can chose to respect the laws in the country you are in, or not.

Xeamek 3y ago
You can also judge if a given law is moral or valid, and take actions based on that. PSF has some moral views and they believe in some standards regardless of given country's law. Why are you so fixated on that?
- DeathArrow 3y ago
  >PSF has some moral views I thought the reason PSF exists is to promote Python, not to have political views.
  - Xeamek 3y ago
    The main reason of some entity's existence doesn't prevent it from having an additional views, that can even shape the way they execute their primary goal
  - Tao3300 3y ago
    https://www.python.org/psf/mission/ https://www.python.org/psf/mission/ > The mission of the Python Software Foundation is to promote, protect, and advance the Python programming language, and to support and facilitate the growth of a diverse and international community of Python programmers.
    - polski-g 3y ago
      By prohibiting African Python programmers from taking part because of their political views, how does that promote "diverse and international communities"? Are anti-LGBT Africans not diverse enough?
      - acdha 3y ago
        Nobody is prohibited from attending based on their political views. It’s only a question of whether those views cause someone to negatively impact other attendees that they have a problem. You can be completely anti-LGBT as long as you’re mature enough to only talk about Python at a Python conference.
        polski-g 3y ago
        They're not funding entire conferences because of how a country decides to vote, even though it has nothing to do with Python or programming.
        acdha 3y ago
        It does have to do with people being free and safe to attend, however. If you see freedom as additive, that’s consistent: the PSF doesn’t want to be associated with conferences which are risky for some people to attend. That doesn’t mean that a different conference can’t be organized, only that they are uncomfortable supporting less free places. I’m fine with that as long as it applies to U.S. states which fail the same concerns.
- disgruntledphd2 3y ago
  Sure, that's totally fine. However, what is the impact here? Basically the volunteers for a Python conference needed to write an open letter as the conference didn't happen. Like, if the PSF don't want conferences in places where same-sex relationships are prohibited, then they should just make that a policy. Personally, I would disagree with that policy as I don't see how Python relates to said policies, but it would be fine. What's not fine is relatively poor volunteers being forced to guarantee major expenses for a conference because the PSF couldn't make a decision.
danShumway 3y ago
What does respecting a law have to do with Python? The venue is safe for the international Python community, or it is not.

culebron21 3y ago

Western countries should then stop giving their "perks" (grants, subsidies, volunteers traveling) to the entire Africa, because it's not up to any standards of culture or human rights. ...And proudly wait till Africa meets them. As the joke says: "they promised to fill the pool as soon as we learn to swim."

A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago

Hey now, just the other people day people on HN argued that forcing a person to adopt some norms is not censorship, because: 1. It is not the government doing it 2. It is not actually speech You can't say you are free to express yourself in one sentence and forbid expression in the next. Either we all have to hide or we can all be free to express ourselves as we see fit.

Xeamek 3y ago
You are free to say what you want, and I'm free to take what you are saying into consideration when deciding what in what interaction I will or won't engage with you. What's the contradiction here?
- A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago
  Simple. By preventing me from self-identifying as an asshole by forcing non-asshole behaviors -- you are infringing on my right to free speech, free association ( or non-association ) and many others such rights. If you cannot see it, you yourself are not free.
  - CyberDildonics 3y ago
    my right to free speech That's about government retaliation. You don't have a right to be free of consequences for anything you say. What you're looking for is a "safe space".
    - A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago
      Oh? So what will you claim exactly when the situation is reversed and you are not free from consequences of your actions? Societal norms are fickle. Are you sure you want rely on those?
      - CyberDildonics 3y ago
        No one is free from any and all consequences for their actions. Is this a real question? You may as well accept that your actions have consequences since it is reality. Usually this is a lesson taught to young children while they are still learning to talk.

mdew 3y ago

[dead]

gwervc 3y ago

> But that's the whole problem: they shouldn't have to hide it in the first place. In Rome do as the Romans do. Cultural norms differ by countries and should be respected. Also this kind of indignation is very selective, I've never read a software fundation complaining about it being unsafe to travel as a christian in Marocco (where owing a bible is forbidden by law) for example.

LightHugger 3y ago
Based on limited research, owning and selling bibles is allowed there but missionary work is not allowed.
- Tao3300 3y ago
  How many pounds of Bible do I have to have on me for it to count as intent to evangelize?
Xeamek 3y ago
>In Rome do as the Romans do. Cultural norms differ by countries and should be respected. Only to a degree where those cultural norms are acceptable.
- ExoticPearTree 3y ago
  Then don't go if you feel like the norms are not acceptable to you. In this day and age is not that hard do do a little research before going to a place you've never been before.
viraptor 3y ago
> where owing a bible is forbidden by law That's not a great comparison. You can choose if you bring a Bible with you or not - this seems like a law about Bibles, not about being a Christian. You can't choose to not be gay/trans for some time - even if you hide it, the relevant records may be public and easy to find if some law enforcement.
OfSanguineFire 3y ago