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Maybe Tutanota.com has a lot of outlook users reporting your marketing emails as spam. I generally do this if the unsubscribe route is too painful, or even if i

Maybe Tutanota.com has a lot of outlook users reporting your marketing emails as spam. I generally do this if the unsubscribe route is too painful, or even if it takes too long to load.

Ekaros 3y ago
It is good practise. You should never use the unsubscribe function as it tells sender the account receives is actually in use and valid. Thus they will sell your email to even more spammers.
- fragmede 3y ago
  Yeah no. Emails which include an unsubscribe link are legit enough to not do that. Actual spammers don't bother to include an unsubscribe link.
  - Ekaros 3y ago
    Are you sure that 100% of companies have not sold unsubscribed users information? As if there is even single counter-example you should just automatically mark it spam and then email providers should blacklist the domain.
    - arp242 3y ago
      That hugely draconian. Are you 100% sure you never just signed up for a newsletter and forgot about it? Are you 100% sure your email didn't end up there in some other way? I used to send out some newsletters for my website; just a programming blog thingy. It was just a form with a simple program on the server to collect email addresses. Wrote everything myself; no external service or whatnot involved. I got some pretty aggressive replies about people who insisted that I was spamming them. Did they forget (I didn't send out the newsletter very often)? Did someone typo their email and end up at the wrong person? Did some bot maybe fill in the form and pass the little captcha I added? Who knows. All I know is that there was a legit POST /subscribe request. And as someone who also worked with spam prevention: it's this kind of stuff that also makes legit spam detection harder than it needs to be. The "Report spam" button is not a "fuck you" button, but unfortunately many people seem to use it as such.
      - Ekaros 3y ago
        With email spam it has been long proven that best way to act is to treat all actors as malicious. As there is enough malicious actors around. And it took me a minute to find phishing mail with unsubscribe link. Which entirely proves my original point. Sure those sending phishing mails won't stop the mails I probably ordered somewhere?
        arp242 3y ago
        > And it took me a minute to find phishing mail with unsubscribe link. Which entirely proves my original point You weren't talking about phishing before. You're shifting this to something radically different.
        Ekaros 3y ago
        I originally replied to comment stating: > Yeah no. Emails which include an unsubscribe link are legit enough to not do that. Actual spammers don't bother to include an unsubscribe link. I found a phishing email with unsubscribe link. Thus I think we can generalize that emails containing unsubscribe in general are not legit nearly enough of times to trust that. Thus only correct and safe way is to mark them as spam and let the email provider eventually to handle them correctly for everyone.
      - gpderetta 3y ago
        You do not need to be 100% sure. 99% of the time you explicitly unsubscribed from all categories, but the sender just added a new one and helpfully opted you in. So, yes, "fuck you".
        arp242 3y ago
        And that other 1%[1] is just collateral damage? "Sucks to be you!" Please note they were suggesting that a single email should "blacklist the domain". You are pretty much suggesting the very thing Microsoft is doing here. This is not a serious suggestion in any shape or form. [1]: A number I have serious doubts about by the way, but we'll use it for now.
    - safety1st 3y ago
      You're absolutely incorrect about this. What you're saying may have been true a long time ago but it's 100% wrong now. In 2023/2024 you should click unsubscribe links. No matter how spammy a sender is, an unsubscribe click is a big signal that they don't want to contact that email account again. It takes time and money to warm up a domain, prepare it for outbound email, and keep it from being blacklisted when you're sending out a high volume of mail. The days where someone can just spin up an email server in a couple of minutes and blast hundreds of thousands of people with spam are over. If you don't manage your reputation you'll get blacklisted in a matter of hours. The #1 way as a mailer to manage your reputation is to respect unsubscribe requests. Yes, clicking the unsubscribe link indicates that there's a real human checking the mailbox. But data resellers have many ways to verify the validity of a mailbox that are more effective than this one. And unlike this one, they don't indicate that the person dislikes receiving unsolicited email. So very few data resellers use unsubscribe clicks as a way to verify email validity, because if they do they'll be polluting their product with the emails of people who are likely to get pissed off by unsolicited mail, report it and get a customer's domain blacklisted. If the data reseller is selling "verified" data that is getting his customers blacklisted - he won't be in business for much longer. It's worth pointing out that not all unsolicited mail is illegal. There are exceptions carved out in US CAN-SPAM and in other jurisdictions. If you're a business in the US the law is basically that people can send you unsolicited marketing emails whether you like it or not, as long as they provide an unsubscribe link and respect your request if you click it. To not use the mechanism that is explicitly required by the law for your protection is shortsighted.
      - tomjen3 3y ago
        I don’t know how often I have clicked the unsubscribe link only to find I am not unsubscribed. Plus the link is always at the bottom in a tiny footer. The mark as spam button has no such issue and hurts the sender to boot.
        duckmysick 3y ago
        Another data point: since 2021, every time I clicked the unsubscribe link, I stopped receiving emails from those services. I also haven't seen those email addresses passed on to someone else (I use unique aliases).
  - ale42 3y ago
    Not really true. Many spams (at least in the past) used to include unsubscribe link, either for faked-legal-compliance, to give some illusion of legitimacy of the mail/originating company to the recipient, and/or to track who is actually receiving them. But if you landed in a mailing list, there are quite high changes that the unsubscribe link is legit.
    - nottorp 3y ago
      The unsubscribe link is legit, but how did I end up on the list? I've never ever signed up for something with the goal of receiving marketing emails. I've never given explicit permission to receive marketing emails. So if you send me a marketing email, it's spam because I didn't ask for it. It may be legal but that doesn't impress me.
      - ale42 3y ago
        If you ended up on the list without signing up, well I wouldn't blame you to click the "Report spam" button, because that's what it is. But I'm pretty sure that some people who actually signed up on purpose to be on some mailing list just click the spam button not to see them any more, because they are not any more interested, or for whatever other reason.
        nottorp 3y ago
        That's probably 1% of 1%. The rest is opt out instead of opt in and dark patterns.
    - account42 3y ago
      > But if you landed in a mailing list, there are quite high changes that the unsubscribe link is legit. "Legit" in that it will unsubscribe you from that exact list but not the 100 others they added you to at the same time.
      - ale42 3y ago
        Totally true, but sometimes people just want to unsubscribe to a mailing list they got in because they forgot to uncheck the box "send me promotions" when buying something online, or maybe they even signed up on purpose in the past. Still, some of these just mark the mails as spam not to get them any more.
  - justinclift 3y ago
    Nope. If you want to get people to click a link in your malicious booby trapped email, then an "unsubscribe" one is high on the list to include. :)
  - polar 3y ago
    I wish you were right, but that is not the case, sadly. I could give you several examples but here's one: there was a comment on HN a little while ago [1] about a spammer by the name of whitehallmedia. Every single email they send has an unsubscribe link. Clicking it (I used a test email account.) does not have the effect that one might expect. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30405503 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30405503
- Double_a_92 3y ago
  If it's from a generally legit company the unsubscribe function does actually work.
- kevincox 3y ago
  You absolutely should use the unsubscribe link if it is solicited mail. It is very rude to ask for mail then harm the senders reputation because you don't want to unsubscribe. But if the mail is unsolicited or the unsubscribe link doesn't work then absolutely yes, mash that spam button.
mulmen 3y ago
Even if the unsubscribe link works I still report spam as spam. If it is unsolicited then it is spam, plain and simple.
- dvfjsdhgfv 3y ago
  I'm very surprised to see you are being downvoted, I was convinced everybody is doing that. Spam is spam, period. Asking me go click on a link that leads somewhere is just a waste of my time - and there are still a few culprits out there who instead of unsubscribing me straight away demand that I log in to "manage my notification preferences"!
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    The worst ones are the ones that add a whole paragraph to their spam to explain why it isn't spam and they have a right to send you their junk.
    - justinclift 3y ago
      Yeah, those are lousy. Even worse though are places like Atlassian, which add a footer to some of their emails like "this email can't be unsubscribed from". Even though it's directly illegal for them to have emails that can't be unsubscribed from. It's their own special "Fuck You!" message to their email recipients.
      - PedroBatista 3y ago
        Their lawyers will argue that’s a transactional email part of the functionality of the app, so they can play fast and loose with legal requirements
        justinclift 3y ago
        I'm not even their customer (and never will be), so not really sure what kind of app functionality they'd be claiming. :/ But the concept of your comment "they're just doing what they want because they reckon they can get away with it" is pretty common among large tech companies.
stareatgoats 3y ago
> or even if it takes too long to load Which is not ideal, and might explain why Gmail routinely puts perfectly legit correspondence in my spam folder - again and again. I realize this might well be a problem stemming from email clients having but one option to flag emails: spam. Ideally one should have more options - as it is scamming, spoofing and innocuous unsolicited marketing (and slow loading messages it seems) are all put in the same basket.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- pferde 3y ago
  Do you think regular users would know, or even care about which category to use? As far as they're concerned, it's "this message bad!", period.
  - vbezhenar 3y ago
    That's why Gmail is fantastically bad at spam filtering. Even simple spamassassin setup is miles ahead of it. Gmail filtering is basically useless because it forces me to check spam folder and I need to look at all this spam anyway.
- gpderetta 3y ago
  > scamming, spoofing and innocuous unsolicited marketing it is all spam; none of us want to see any of it, why do we need more fine grained control?
  - stareatgoats 3y ago
    you forgot to mention "slow loading emails", and I might add "I don't remember signing up to this newsletter", or "ok I signed up to this newsletter but this article triggers me" etc. This "users can't handle fine-grained control" philosophy is stupifying users IMO. Granted, many don't have the knowhow, but they could just use the (hypothetical) dislike button, and the anti-spam AI could in that case place little weight to their judgement call. The interested user could instead be placed on a journey to be ever more adept at identifying email misuse. Edit: as another commenter mentions, at present these completely unreliable signals to the anti-spam software causes for example Gmail to put perfectly legit emails in the spam folder - so I have to wade through a load of junk anyway (otherwise the legit messages in there gets deleted after 30 days). The system is broken, and people reporting irrelevant things as spam is most likely a part of it.

Maybe Tutanota.com has a lot of outlook users reporting your marketing emails as spam. I generally do this if the unsubscribe route is too painful, or even if it takes too long to load.

Ekaros 3y ago

It is good practise. You should never use the unsubscribe function as it tells sender the account receives is actually in use and valid. Thus they will sell your email to even more spammers.

fragmede 3y ago
Yeah no. Emails which include an unsubscribe link are legit enough to not do that. Actual spammers don't bother to include an unsubscribe link.
- Ekaros 3y ago
  Are you sure that 100% of companies have not sold unsubscribed users information? As if there is even single counter-example you should just automatically mark it spam and then email providers should blacklist the domain.
  - arp242 3y ago
    That hugely draconian. Are you 100% sure you never just signed up for a newsletter and forgot about it? Are you 100% sure your email didn't end up there in some other way? I used to send out some newsletters for my website; just a programming blog thingy. It was just a form with a simple program on the server to collect email addresses. Wrote everything myself; no external service or whatnot involved. I got some pretty aggressive replies about people who insisted that I was spamming them. Did they forget (I didn't send out the newsletter very often)? Did someone typo their email and end up at the wrong person? Did some bot maybe fill in the form and pass the little captcha I added? Who knows. All I know is that there was a legit POST /subscribe request. And as someone who also worked with spam prevention: it's this kind of stuff that also makes legit spam detection harder than it needs to be. The "Report spam" button is not a "fuck you" button, but unfortunately many people seem to use it as such.
    - Ekaros 3y ago
      With email spam it has been long proven that best way to act is to treat all actors as malicious. As there is enough malicious actors around. And it took me a minute to find phishing mail with unsubscribe link. Which entirely proves my original point. Sure those sending phishing mails won't stop the mails I probably ordered somewhere?
      - arp242 3y ago
        > And it took me a minute to find phishing mail with unsubscribe link. Which entirely proves my original point You weren't talking about phishing before. You're shifting this to something radically different.
        Ekaros 3y ago
        I originally replied to comment stating: > Yeah no. Emails which include an unsubscribe link are legit enough to not do that. Actual spammers don't bother to include an unsubscribe link. I found a phishing email with unsubscribe link. Thus I think we can generalize that emails containing unsubscribe in general are not legit nearly enough of times to trust that. Thus only correct and safe way is to mark them as spam and let the email provider eventually to handle them correctly for everyone.
    - gpderetta 3y ago
      You do not need to be 100% sure. 99% of the time you explicitly unsubscribed from all categories, but the sender just added a new one and helpfully opted you in. So, yes, "fuck you".
      - arp242 3y ago
        And that other 1%[1] is just collateral damage? "Sucks to be you!" Please note they were suggesting that a single email should "blacklist the domain". You are pretty much suggesting the very thing Microsoft is doing here. This is not a serious suggestion in any shape or form. [1]: A number I have serious doubts about by the way, but we'll use it for now.
  - safety1st 3y ago
    You're absolutely incorrect about this. What you're saying may have been true a long time ago but it's 100% wrong now. In 2023/2024 you should click unsubscribe links. No matter how spammy a sender is, an unsubscribe click is a big signal that they don't want to contact that email account again. It takes time and money to warm up a domain, prepare it for outbound email, and keep it from being blacklisted when you're sending out a high volume of mail. The days where someone can just spin up an email server in a couple of minutes and blast hundreds of thousands of people with spam are over. If you don't manage your reputation you'll get blacklisted in a matter of hours. The #1 way as a mailer to manage your reputation is to respect unsubscribe requests. Yes, clicking the unsubscribe link indicates that there's a real human checking the mailbox. But data resellers have many ways to verify the validity of a mailbox that are more effective than this one. And unlike this one, they don't indicate that the person dislikes receiving unsolicited email. So very few data resellers use unsubscribe clicks as a way to verify email validity, because if they do they'll be polluting their product with the emails of people who are likely to get pissed off by unsolicited mail, report it and get a customer's domain blacklisted. If the data reseller is selling "verified" data that is getting his customers blacklisted - he won't be in business for much longer. It's worth pointing out that not all unsolicited mail is illegal. There are exceptions carved out in US CAN-SPAM and in other jurisdictions. If you're a business in the US the law is basically that people can send you unsolicited marketing emails whether you like it or not, as long as they provide an unsubscribe link and respect your request if you click it. To not use the mechanism that is explicitly required by the law for your protection is shortsighted.
    - tomjen3 3y ago
      I don’t know how often I have clicked the unsubscribe link only to find I am not unsubscribed. Plus the link is always at the bottom in a tiny footer. The mark as spam button has no such issue and hurts the sender to boot.
      - duckmysick 3y ago
        Another data point: since 2021, every time I clicked the unsubscribe link, I stopped receiving emails from those services. I also haven't seen those email addresses passed on to someone else (I use unique aliases).
- ale42 3y ago
  Not really true. Many spams (at least in the past) used to include unsubscribe link, either for faked-legal-compliance, to give some illusion of legitimacy of the mail/originating company to the recipient, and/or to track who is actually receiving them. But if you landed in a mailing list, there are quite high changes that the unsubscribe link is legit.
  - nottorp 3y ago
    The unsubscribe link is legit, but how did I end up on the list? I've never ever signed up for something with the goal of receiving marketing emails. I've never given explicit permission to receive marketing emails. So if you send me a marketing email, it's spam because I didn't ask for it. It may be legal but that doesn't impress me.
    - ale42 3y ago
      If you ended up on the list without signing up, well I wouldn't blame you to click the "Report spam" button, because that's what it is. But I'm pretty sure that some people who actually signed up on purpose to be on some mailing list just click the spam button not to see them any more, because they are not any more interested, or for whatever other reason.
      - nottorp 3y ago
        That's probably 1% of 1%. The rest is opt out instead of opt in and dark patterns.
  - account42 3y ago
    > But if you landed in a mailing list, there are quite high changes that the unsubscribe link is legit. "Legit" in that it will unsubscribe you from that exact list but not the 100 others they added you to at the same time.
    - ale42 3y ago
      Totally true, but sometimes people just want to unsubscribe to a mailing list they got in because they forgot to uncheck the box "send me promotions" when buying something online, or maybe they even signed up on purpose in the past. Still, some of these just mark the mails as spam not to get them any more.
- justinclift 3y ago
  Nope. If you want to get people to click a link in your malicious booby trapped email, then an "unsubscribe" one is high on the list to include. :)
- polar 3y ago
  I wish you were right, but that is not the case, sadly. I could give you several examples but here's one: there was a comment on HN a little while ago [1] about a spammer by the name of whitehallmedia. Every single email they send has an unsubscribe link. Clicking it (I used a test email account.) does not have the effect that one might expect. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30405503 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30405503
Double_a_92 3y ago
If it's from a generally legit company the unsubscribe function does actually work.
kevincox 3y ago
You absolutely should use the unsubscribe link if it is solicited mail. It is very rude to ask for mail then harm the senders reputation because you don't want to unsubscribe. But if the mail is unsolicited or the unsubscribe link doesn't work then absolutely yes, mash that spam button.

mulmen 3y ago

Even if the unsubscribe link works I still report spam as spam. If it is unsolicited then it is spam, plain and simple.

dvfjsdhgfv 3y ago
I'm very surprised to see you are being downvoted, I was convinced everybody is doing that. Spam is spam, period. Asking me go click on a link that leads somewhere is just a waste of my time - and there are still a few culprits out there who instead of unsubscribing me straight away demand that I log in to "manage my notification preferences"!
- jacquesm 3y ago
  The worst ones are the ones that add a whole paragraph to their spam to explain why it isn't spam and they have a right to send you their junk.
  - justinclift 3y ago
    Yeah, those are lousy. Even worse though are places like Atlassian, which add a footer to some of their emails like "this email can't be unsubscribed from". Even though it's directly illegal for them to have emails that can't be unsubscribed from. It's their own special "Fuck You!" message to their email recipients.
    - PedroBatista 3y ago
      Their lawyers will argue that’s a transactional email part of the functionality of the app, so they can play fast and loose with legal requirements
      - justinclift 3y ago
        I'm not even their customer (and never will be), so not really sure what kind of app functionality they'd be claiming. :/ But the concept of your comment "they're just doing what they want because they reckon they can get away with it" is pretty common among large tech companies.

stareatgoats 3y ago

> or even if it takes too long to load Which is not ideal, and might explain why Gmail routinely puts perfectly legit correspondence in my spam folder - again and again. I realize this might well be a problem stemming from email clients having but one option to flag emails: spam. Ideally one should have more options - as it is scamming, spoofing and innocuous unsolicited marketing (and slow loading messages it seems) are all put in the same basket.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
pferde 3y ago
Do you think regular users would know, or even care about which category to use? As far as they're concerned, it's "this message bad!", period.
- vbezhenar 3y ago
  That's why Gmail is fantastically bad at spam filtering. Even simple spamassassin setup is miles ahead of it. Gmail filtering is basically useless because it forces me to check spam folder and I need to look at all this spam anyway.
gpderetta 3y ago
> scamming, spoofing and innocuous unsolicited marketing it is all spam; none of us want to see any of it, why do we need more fine grained control?
- stareatgoats 3y ago
  you forgot to mention "slow loading emails", and I might add "I don't remember signing up to this newsletter", or "ok I signed up to this newsletter but this article triggers me" etc. This "users can't handle fine-grained control" philosophy is stupifying users IMO. Granted, many don't have the knowhow, but they could just use the (hypothetical) dislike button, and the anti-spam AI could in that case place little weight to their judgement call. The interested user could instead be placed on a journey to be ever more adept at identifying email misuse. Edit: as another commenter mentions, at present these completely unreliable signals to the anti-spam software causes for example Gmail to put perfectly legit emails in the spam folder - so I have to wade through a load of junk anyway (otherwise the legit messages in there gets deleted after 30 days). The system is broken, and people reporting irrelevant things as spam is most likely a part of it.