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Why 3M stopped making floppy disks in the '90s
- GuB-42 3y ago> 3M made the best ones A very common quote. 3M seems to be the best at everything they do, including pollution.
- wannacboatmovie 3y agoThat's what probably made them the best. Everybody knows the horrible chemicals of yesteryear often led to a better quality product or UX, an uncomfortable truth. For example, dishwasher soap used to be a lot more effective before they removed phosphates. Mercury switch thermostats were infinitely more reliable than their successors and many are still working today 50 years later in older homes. LED bulbs have been associated with migraine symptoms, and are all around terrible for reading. Let's not forget the clusterfuck that is lead-free solder and just ask yourself why it's banned from aircraft and space applications where reliability is of utmost importance.
- ace2358 3y agoI often think that old, high quality goods (like cars, audio gear, plastics, furniture, colours that don’t fade) were made with materials or processors that aren’t acceptable today. Which kind of makes me sad for the future and sad for the past.
- calamari4065 3y agoAsbestos, lead, arsenic, lots of people died very horrible deaths due to these "unacceptable" materials.
- mumblemumble 3y agoThat's presumably what the last 4 or 5 words of the post were alluding to.
- kergonath 3y ago> I often think that old, high quality goods Survivor bias plays a huge role as well. No one remembers the dishwasher that broke after 6 months 30 years ago when they were 5. Everyone remembers the one that kept on chugging for 40 years at grandma’s. > like cars, OTOH modern cars are much more robust and their engines last much longer with lower maintenance. It’s infuriating when there is an electronic issue and we need to change the computer, but overall integration has its benefits. > audio gear, CAD improved a lot. We can now have better speakers much smaller than what we used to have. Much cheaper as well, because through computer design we can make much more complex parts with better properties. It’s the same thing with photography. Modern lenses are insane if you ask someone who’s done it since the 1970s. They have more than 10 optical elements, have insane reach (hand holding a 300mm was very impractical except in the brightest weather). What we have in our phones is mind boggling if you think about it a little (both optics and speakers). > plastics, furniture, A lot of furniture was crap back then as well. It’s interesting because to me the epitome of rubbish furniture that disintegrates over time with horrible discoloured plastic is the 1979s and 1980s. Any random book case you can get now from Ikea is miles better. > colours that don’t fade We have loads of synthetic pigments that are much better than what we used to have, without arsenic, uranium, lead, or cadmium. > Which kind of makes me sad for the future and sad for the past. That’s normal, and there are a lot of things that are rubbish now. But let’s try to keep a clear view and some critical thinking: a lot of things are also much better.
- sealeck 3y agoYou're kind of leaving out the whole "literally poisons the user or gives them cancer" part. I certainly wouldn't trade slightly better thermostats for a higher risk of heavy metals poisoning. Also LED bulbs are great – they're much more efficient, and much cheaper. They can be great for reading, you just need to get one of the correct brightness. You can even do things like https://meaningness.com/sad-light-lumens https://meaningness.com/sad-light-lumens which would bankrupt you (figuratively) if you used tungsten filament bulbs. Obviously you want to get LEDs of the right hue, and LEDs tend to be a bit colder than tungsten by default. Of course the upper range of tungesten is higher but this is irrelevant for all practical purposes (unless you're staging a West End or Broadway production).
- wgjordan 3y ago> You're kind of leaving out the whole "literally poisons the user or gives them cancer" part. I thought 'horrible' was a suitable word choice for this part.
- mensetmanusman 3y agoYou might be if the difference in an accurate thermal signal is the difference in a jet engine blade expanding too much to self destruct while in flight :)
- wannacboatmovie 3y ago> You're kind of leaving out the whole "literally poisons the user or gives them cancer" part. It was left out because it literally does not happen as you describe it. The state of California compels me to remind you that everything will give you cancer. The risk is that these devices weren't being recycled properly, tossed in a landfill, and the effects were cumulative. Short of you smashing open the thermostat and drinking the mercury out of the bulb the risk posed to you, the user, was basically zero. Yet we introduced mercury-containing CFLs as an environmentally-friendly alternative to incandescents. What do you think is a more likely scenario? Being exposed to a blob of mercury sealed in a glass bulb inside a thermostat that is changed maybe once every 20 years or dropping a mercury containing CFL bulb on the floor? I'm curious, when you set foot in an automobile are you worried about being poisoned by its lead-acid battery? You shouldn't, it's irrational.
- toast0 3y ago> LED bulbs have been associated with migraine symptoms, and are all around terrible for reading. Yeah, but fluorescents are worse, sometimes much worse, and have mercury; compact fluorescent was never good, but was highly pushed. Incadescents have very poor efficiency, but nice light, and not much in the way of hazardous materials. High quality LED bulbs can be made with good light outputs, I'm not sure that's true of fluorescent.
- joezydeco 3y agoMercury switches were reliable, but were they accurate? What's the tolerance of a bimetallic spring? How about repeatability?
- calamari4065 3y agoThey are surprisingly accurate, actually. It's an effect of the physical properties of the metal, which we can measure quite precisely. I couldn't immediately find an exact figure. Repeatability is not so great, but mostly because the mechanisms are designed as cheaply as possible. But typically it's within a couple of degrees. It turns out to not be that big of an issue because you want a few degrees of hysteresis in a thermostat.
- WWLink 3y ago> Mercury switch thermostats were infinitely more reliable than their successors and many are still working today 50 years later in older homes. Oh come on dude. Those things are crap and if you somehow break it, you end up with mercury on the floor. I watched a mover do just this when I was a kid. They were too careless with the sofa and knocked the thermostat off the wall, breaking the mercury vial inside it. It was a stupid piece of crap that had an electromechanical timer that made a ton of noise anyway. The electronic ones are incredibly simple. The one in my house is probably 30 years old and still works fine.
- yencabulator 3y agoThe electronic ones are, generally, fine. The in-between generation of wound metal that changes how it bends based on temperature, those were too fiddly and prone to losing calibration.
- Hello71 3y ago> dishwasher soap used to be a lot more effective before they removed phosphates was it? https://www.consumerreports.org/media-room/press-releases/2010/08/low-phosphate-dishwasher-detergents-that-work/ https://www.consumerreports.org/media-room/press-releases/20... says that several phosphate-free formulations were "Very Good". > LED bulbs have been associated with migraine symptoms, and are all around terrible for reading. some cheap LED bulbs have issues, but they're generally better than fluorescent bulbs which contain the horrible chemicals. > Let's not forget the clusterfuck that is lead-free solder and just ask yourself why it's banned from aircraft and space applications where reliability is of utmost importance. is it? a Google search for "avionics lead solder" finds Boeing saying in 2005 that "consumer electronic industry trends will force aerospace to adapt to an evolving lead-free transition", a "US Tech" saying "The global aircraft and aerospace market is moving toward 100 percent lead-free solder", an "AIM Solder" which "offers many tin-lead & lead-free RMA products suitable for the military & aerospace sector", and one source saying "Tin-lead alloy solder [...] has been used to assemble the avionics of every aircraft currently flying", by... "Lead Matters". while environmentally-friendly replacements sometimes have downsides, categorically painting them as a lot/infinitely/terribly/clusterfuck worse is just "gubmint takin away our freedoms". yes, lead-free gasoline did require some engine design improvements, but it would be insane and downright inhumane to keep using it for a small increase in octane rating.
- grozzle 3y agoI built a few identical fidget-spinner toy kits using either leaded and lead-free solder to decide which type I should keep buying from then on, the leaded stuff was admittedly a tiny bit easier to work with and usually left a slightly shinier (better looking) surface, but not to an adequate degree to justify any real risk (or even continual worry) of brain damage et cetera from voluntarily raising the lead level of my home. Your comment seems unbalanced, to me.
- tharkun__ 3y agoI don't think a tiny bit of easier working with it is why lead based would be used in aerospace ;) Shininess? Who cares. Now I know nothing about which is better in these regards but: What would you look for in aerospace applications? I would imagine things like: Proneness to cold joints. Ease of detecting cold solder joints. Longevity (in general). Longevity under the stresses of aerospace realities. Etc. Do you have data on that?
- grozzle 3y agoYou've mis-interpreted why I commented. aerospace is a small part of what soldering is used for, globally. the majority is consumer electronics. keeping lead out of people's homes is a valuable public-health move, not a needless "clusterfuck", as the comment I replied to said.
- tharkun__ 3y agoFair enough though I wonder how a user would come in contact with lead from solder in say my laptop? Genuinely curious. As a hobbyist I use lead free and I bet the rosin flux burning off if I make a boo boo is bad either way, lead or not. It's in both types. About worker health in consumer electronics sure we can talk. But let's include the flux question in that too.
- wannacboatmovie 3y agoAre you planning to eat your laptop? If no, your risk is basically zero. As for your hobbyist work, the flux used in lead-free solder is actually worse if you breathe it in: It was widely believed that the move to lead-free soldering would create more environmentally-friendly conditions; however because of the higher temperatures required and extra flux used lead-free soldering smoke emissions actually contain more fine dust particles which are easier to breathe in. As Fig.1 shows, these penetrate further into the lungs than pollen or asbestos, reaching and blocking the alveoli. https://uk.farnell.com/essential-considerations-for-managing-soldering-fume-extraction https://uk.farnell.com/essential-considerations-for-managing...
- accrual 3y ago> lead-free solder and just ask yourself why it's banned from aircraft and space applications where reliability is of utmost importance. Wow, is that really a thing? I would have assumed they'd use leaded solder if it made for more flexible/stable connections, and that technicians would just bear increased safety requirements (masks, ventilation, etc.). Once the craft launched into space the risk of the lead hurting anybody approaches zero. Even burning up due to a failed launch doesn't seem like it would cause any appreciable damage (at least not due to lead). I figured spacecraft design demanded the best performance and reliability, regardless of possible human impacts (e.g. RTGs and their potential to rain down on people upon failed launch).
- wombatpm 3y agoThe plutonium from the RTG power cells is much more concerning. How many atoms of plutonium do you have to inhale to get cancer?
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- wannacboatmovie 3y agohttps://leadmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Lead-Matters-Casestudy-Aviation.pdf https://leadmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Lead-Matt...
- Symbiote 3y agoNote the group who publishes that. "The Consortium represents a membership of more than 90 legal entities involved in the mining, smelting, refining and recycling of lead, as well as manufacturers of lead compounds and producers of lead-based automotive and industrial batteries." Aerospace was exempt from the lead solder ban for 12 years, ending in 2018.
- logbiscuitswave 3y agoThe problem isn’t the lead itself, it’s the phenomenon of tin whiskering that can happen with some Pb-free solder alloys where metallic hair-like structures grow from the solder and cause arcs or short circuits. This is one such example of a failure in space due to tin whiskers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galaxy_IV https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galaxy_IV
- david38 3y agoThis is false. Phosphates were used to combat the effects of hard water, not to clean better. Hard water can be dealt with easily with salt, 3-in-1 tablets, etc.
- rowanG077 3y agoLED lighting has been associated with migraines? Mind linking some studies? I'm very interested in this.
- benj111 3y ago>LED bulbs have been associated with migraine symptoms, and are all around terrible for reading Are they? on the other hand they use less energy, last longer. They aren't exactly worse. Cling film on the other hand. That's rubbish now.
- mensetmanusman 3y agoThat would be the military...
- widenrun 3y agoThe pivot of the century? Starting with a failed mining venture in 1902 and making it as part of the data storage revolution. With this AI wave, we might be seeing similar stories in real time.
- x86x87 3y ago[flagged]
- mensetmanusman 3y agoMost of the stuff they make industrially increases efficiency of downstream businesses in other supply chains and thus reduces environmental impact of making stuff like the phone you are using to comment (and the internet).
- infotainment 3y agoTL;DR: 3M’s magnetic storage business was spun off into “Imation”, which then in turn died a slow death. Imation…now that’s a brand I haven’t seen in a long time. Brings back memories!
- TacticalCoder 3y ago> Brings back memories! Same and TIL it was actually spun off of MMM!
- porknubbins 3y agoReminds me of zipdiscs, I think they made those too.
- mumblemumble 3y agoZip disks were Iomega.
- s0rce 3y agoImation made the superdisk, competed with zipdisc and the drive could also read 3.5" "floppy" disks with the same formfactor.
- kevin_thibedeau 3y agoIomega was involved with 3M in Floptical development which is a tech ancestor to the Zip and LS120 formats.
- elzbardico 3y agoLike other legacy companies with technology business at that time, the main motivation was probably making some quick cash by selling those business in order to finance stock buybacks and propel C-suite bonuses.
- kevin_thibedeau 3y agoThe Imation spinoff was good timing and worthwhile. The writing was on the wall. I wouldn't compare it to the rest of the 90s divestitures which abound with examples of management knee-capping their core business for the sake of following the latest fad.
- johngladtj 3y agoAnd that's perfectly fine to do.
- paulddraper 3y agoThough based on Imation's (not) success, it was apparently a good idea.
- kdazzle 3y agoSomeone was like: “Bro is this even tape?” And 3M was like “oh shit”
- powera 3y agoAll the comments are suggesting, roughly, that 3M is somehow "evil" for getting out of the floppy disk business. But nobody uses floppy disks anymore! (This is a good thing.) Why shouldn't they have gotten out before the complete collapse of the floppy-drive market?
- s1artibartfast 3y agoI don't get it either, and the storage business they spun off wasn't a big money maker and subsequently tanked with the rest of the industry. Seems smart not to ride it down
- downrightmike 3y agoI think people see 3M as evil because they have secret directives to not allow women to work certain jobs because 3M knows they'll be exposed to dangerous chemicals that can ruin their ability to have kids. And 3M knew the chemicals were dangerous generations ago, but didn't stop. https://minnesotareformer.com/2022/12/15/toxic-3m-knew-its-chemicals-were-harmful-decades-ago-but-didnt-tell-the-public-government/ https://minnesotareformer.com/2022/12/15/toxic-3m-knew-its-c...
- paulddraper 3y agoThen the comments here should come out and say that.
- shrubble 3y ago3M always has the goal of 25% of revenue being from things they invented/started making in the last 5 years. They probably saw no future in making legacy items and sold it off...
- Racing0461 3y agoLowering revenue of things created more than 5 years ago helps with this goal.
- TheCleric 3y agoI like how they started off making sandpaper and that’s still the thing I buy from them to this day. Their Cubitron sandpaper is my go to for woodworking.
- iancmceachern 3y agoTotally, it's the good stuff. Same with their brand of scotch bright, it's good
- mensetmanusman 3y agoTheir new stuff makes wood sanding almost an order of magnitude cheaper. https://youtu.be/NZDCRFi8dKY?si=ABQUh__nl9vSjor9 https://youtu.be/NZDCRFi8dKY?si=ABQUh__nl9vSjor9 I wonder if they meant to price it so much lower than the competition...
- jjeaff 3y agoIt's more expensive than most sandpaper. It's only cheaper when you take into account that it lasts longer, something that many consumers aren't great at doing. so I'm sure they had to split the difference.
- eternityforest 3y agoTheir SandBlaster flexible rubber is great for curved surfaces on 3d prints, aside from the fact that PLA is rather tiring to sand in general.