7 ms·

The reading scores look good, stable with pre-covid and ranked 9th in the world. This might be a curriculum related issue. I've heard from friends that they hav

by sct202 3y ago

The reading scores look good, stable with pre-covid and ranked 9th in the world. This might be a curriculum related issue. I've heard from friends that they have to send their kids outside of school tutoring in math now because their local public schools decided to keep everyone at the same math level and their children are bored out of their minds.

yellowpencil 3y ago
See Cambridge, MA as an example. https://www.boston.com/news/the-boston-globe/2023/07/18/cambridge-schools-are-divided-over-middle-school-algebra/ https://www.boston.com/news/the-boston-globe/2023/07/18/camb...
- ecshafer 3y ago
  I am not sure why so many people are against mathematics in school. Cambridge is full of harvard, mit, bio and tech employees. I would think they would realize the importance of math. This trend is really upsetting. My daughter is a baby but i am already looking into math circles and alternative mathematics curriculums since us math education was bad before this trend of gutting mathematics education.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > Cambridge is full of harvard, mit, bio and tech employees Are their kids in public school? In some areas, the rich and educated have completed separated from public education, which leaves poor, overworked parents prey to well-meaning but clueless activists.
    - yellowpencil 3y ago
      In public schools the only way to "vote with your wallet" is to relocate, the next best option which is less disruptive to a family is to opt out of the school system if the means are available. What other options are there?
      - kasey_junk 3y ago
        Nearly every big city public school system in the country has moved to a model where you can choose which school your child attends in the system. With all kinds of magnet and charter options. Those schools are judged and rewarded based on their popularity. This was done largely to address your concern. It has all sorts of other negatives associated with it but lack of choice in curriculum and staffing isn’t one of them.
        yellowpencil 3y ago
        I'm in a big city and that is certainly not the case. I can submit preferred locations but ultimately there is a very opaque selection process and there is no guarantee made other than a seat somewhere in the system. I know some families who were on a waiting list for years to go to a school in their neighborhood (less than a half mile walking) and were only able to get in this year because of seats opening up due to city exodus. EDIT - to add, what does this solve in the Cambridge, MA situation where the entire district has removed advanced Algebra?
        tptacek 3y ago
        The context this comment is missing is that the district in question is middle school.
        ecshafer 3y ago
        There are plenty of countries that you get algebra in elementary school. Saying it's only middle school is overly dismisive to the massive amounts of damage to mathematical education in the country this policy is doing.
        tptacek 3y ago
        It can't be doing "massive damage" to mathematical education, because it has simply never been the case that significant numbers of students have ever taken advanced algebra in 8th grade.
    - blitzar 3y ago
      > well-meaning but clueless activists Lets call a spade a shovel here - there is nothing well meaning about not teaching maths to children.
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > there is nothing well meaning about not teaching maths to children It's stupid. And there is definitely corruption [1]. (Surprise, surprise, it's another Stanford researcher.) But I don't think most activists are going in to hurt children. They mean well, but wind up causing more harm than good. [1] https://stanfordreview.org/review-investigation-jo-boaler-is-worse-than-we-thought/ https://stanfordreview.org/review-investigation-jo-boaler-is...
        blitzar 3y ago
        These are complex systems, even my best efforts at things I have specialist knowledge of can overlook something stupid, there is no intent there. However, if when peer reviewed and faced with the obviousness of said stupidity one choses to double down that this is the one true way, and proclaim Many of you will die, but that is a sacrifice I am willing to make then the intention becomes all to clear. If everyone had good intentions, we would cherry pick the good things from all the rival plans and might just find a magical middle ground that balanced many of the issues and resulted in a better outcome for all.
        anon291 3y ago
        Intentions don't matter. Politics would be way less divisive if we realized this simple thing.
    - anon291 3y ago
      The well meaning but clueless activists and the rich are often one and the same. Its almost as if the rich want to keep those people uncompetitive so their own kids face less competition.
  - yellowpencil 3y ago
    Dogma I'd guess.
  - Nasrudith 3y ago
    Probably a case of sociopaths going to sociopath. They don't really care about children or the damage they are doing. They just want to make the right sounding mouth-noises to advance and playing Handicapper General in the name of equality. We saw same sort of vile behavior before with "anti-sex trafficking". We really ought to be throwing these people into woodchippers instead of into power.
  - Erratic6576 3y ago
    my parents made sure we got good English as foreign language skills because they knew it’s crucial. I guess maths would have been more useful longterm
Teever 3y ago
People do a lot of reading online, but not so much math.
bequanna 3y ago
> their local public schools decided to keep everyone at the same math level and their children are bored out of their minds. What is the thinking behind this? Is this similar to what was happening in the Bay Area where people took issue with some racial group not being perfectly represented in advanced classes so they scrapped them altogether?
- spamizbad 3y ago
  I think there's several things at play. Disclaimer: I'm not endorsing any of these arguments, just restating them. There's resistance towards "creaming" elite students out of classrooms, as it can increase a teacher's workload: all the students who require zero assistance and could possibly assist their peers are now removed from class, and replaced with different students who will require more of the teacher's attention, reducing individual attention on students who need help. There's also some equity concerns, where there's reluctance to invest additional personnel and administrative overhead on students who are "going to be fine no matter what" and would rather see those additional resources towards students who are struggling - lots of this is based on the belief that low-SES students are less likely to be part of any gifted/honors program compared to high-SES students. Edit: And finally, there's the cynical data-driven reason that underscores this, where if you need to maximize the number of students who demonstrate reading/math proficiency, you need to pull as many students as possible over the line - once they're over the line you can "ignore" them and focus on getting others over the line. Schools unfortunately aren't measured by how they serve their most dedicated students.
  - tstrimple 3y ago
    The shame is we need to focus on both. We have to elevate those in a position to take advantage of it while also providing a solid baseline we need everyone to reach. I sympathize with the peers helping peers aspect. I know one way to learn a lot about a topic is to teach it, so there’s potentially value to both the more advanced and less advanced students. But what would a program like that even look like? I probably would have failed out of high school instead of almost failing if I didn’t have access to AP classes. And I’m fortunate AP classes were based on test scores and not grades for that school. Those classes were the only interesting classes for me. So I hate the idea of them not being an option. But I also would have benefitted a lot from being put into a position to mentor another student on a topic they didn’t understand. Hard to say which would have benefited me more.
notyofriend 3y ago
This is the way. Singapore math and Russian math programs have exploded in popularity due to school failure.
stillwithit 3y ago
> local public schools decided to keep everyone at the same math level That was a thing when I went to public school in the late 80s-90s. Easier for schools to manage assembly line thinkers. This is 100% intentional government policy. The kids who don’t fit in the system are “troublemakers”. My family is full of PhDs and tutored me. Teachers tried telling my parents otherwise but the fam laughed in their face and pulled the “free speech” card. Look at the ages of politicians, the material comfort they have, then question with a straight face why our society is ossified and half asleep.

by sct202 3y ago

yellowpencil 3y ago

See Cambridge, MA as an example. https://www.boston.com/news/the-boston-globe/2023/07/18/cambridge-schools-are-divided-over-middle-school-algebra/ https://www.boston.com/news/the-boston-globe/2023/07/18/camb...

ecshafer 3y ago
I am not sure why so many people are against mathematics in school. Cambridge is full of harvard, mit, bio and tech employees. I would think they would realize the importance of math. This trend is really upsetting. My daughter is a baby but i am already looking into math circles and alternative mathematics curriculums since us math education was bad before this trend of gutting mathematics education.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > Cambridge is full of harvard, mit, bio and tech employees Are their kids in public school? In some areas, the rich and educated have completed separated from public education, which leaves poor, overworked parents prey to well-meaning but clueless activists.
  - yellowpencil 3y ago
    In public schools the only way to "vote with your wallet" is to relocate, the next best option which is less disruptive to a family is to opt out of the school system if the means are available. What other options are there?
    - kasey_junk 3y ago
      Nearly every big city public school system in the country has moved to a model where you can choose which school your child attends in the system. With all kinds of magnet and charter options. Those schools are judged and rewarded based on their popularity. This was done largely to address your concern. It has all sorts of other negatives associated with it but lack of choice in curriculum and staffing isn’t one of them.
      - yellowpencil 3y ago
        I'm in a big city and that is certainly not the case. I can submit preferred locations but ultimately there is a very opaque selection process and there is no guarantee made other than a seat somewhere in the system. I know some families who were on a waiting list for years to go to a school in their neighborhood (less than a half mile walking) and were only able to get in this year because of seats opening up due to city exodus. EDIT - to add, what does this solve in the Cambridge, MA situation where the entire district has removed advanced Algebra?
        tptacek 3y ago
        The context this comment is missing is that the district in question is middle school.
        ecshafer 3y ago
        There are plenty of countries that you get algebra in elementary school. Saying it's only middle school is overly dismisive to the massive amounts of damage to mathematical education in the country this policy is doing.
        tptacek 3y ago
        It can't be doing "massive damage" to mathematical education, because it has simply never been the case that significant numbers of students have ever taken advanced algebra in 8th grade.
  - blitzar 3y ago
    > well-meaning but clueless activists Lets call a spade a shovel here - there is nothing well meaning about not teaching maths to children.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > there is nothing well meaning about not teaching maths to children It's stupid. And there is definitely corruption [1]. (Surprise, surprise, it's another Stanford researcher.) But I don't think most activists are going in to hurt children. They mean well, but wind up causing more harm than good. [1] https://stanfordreview.org/review-investigation-jo-boaler-is-worse-than-we-thought/ https://stanfordreview.org/review-investigation-jo-boaler-is...
      - blitzar 3y ago
        These are complex systems, even my best efforts at things I have specialist knowledge of can overlook something stupid, there is no intent there. However, if when peer reviewed and faced with the obviousness of said stupidity one choses to double down that this is the one true way, and proclaim Many of you will die, but that is a sacrifice I am willing to make then the intention becomes all to clear. If everyone had good intentions, we would cherry pick the good things from all the rival plans and might just find a magical middle ground that balanced many of the issues and resulted in a better outcome for all.
      - anon291 3y ago
        Intentions don't matter. Politics would be way less divisive if we realized this simple thing.
  - anon291 3y ago
    The well meaning but clueless activists and the rich are often one and the same. Its almost as if the rich want to keep those people uncompetitive so their own kids face less competition.
- yellowpencil 3y ago
  Dogma I'd guess.
- Nasrudith 3y ago
  Probably a case of sociopaths going to sociopath. They don't really care about children or the damage they are doing. They just want to make the right sounding mouth-noises to advance and playing Handicapper General in the name of equality. We saw same sort of vile behavior before with "anti-sex trafficking". We really ought to be throwing these people into woodchippers instead of into power.
- Erratic6576 3y ago
  my parents made sure we got good English as foreign language skills because they knew it’s crucial. I guess maths would have been more useful longterm

Teever 3y ago

People do a lot of reading online, but not so much math.

bequanna 3y ago

> their local public schools decided to keep everyone at the same math level and their children are bored out of their minds. What is the thinking behind this? Is this similar to what was happening in the Bay Area where people took issue with some racial group not being perfectly represented in advanced classes so they scrapped them altogether?

spamizbad 3y ago
I think there's several things at play. Disclaimer: I'm not endorsing any of these arguments, just restating them. There's resistance towards "creaming" elite students out of classrooms, as it can increase a teacher's workload: all the students who require zero assistance and could possibly assist their peers are now removed from class, and replaced with different students who will require more of the teacher's attention, reducing individual attention on students who need help. There's also some equity concerns, where there's reluctance to invest additional personnel and administrative overhead on students who are "going to be fine no matter what" and would rather see those additional resources towards students who are struggling - lots of this is based on the belief that low-SES students are less likely to be part of any gifted/honors program compared to high-SES students. Edit: And finally, there's the cynical data-driven reason that underscores this, where if you need to maximize the number of students who demonstrate reading/math proficiency, you need to pull as many students as possible over the line - once they're over the line you can "ignore" them and focus on getting others over the line. Schools unfortunately aren't measured by how they serve their most dedicated students.
- tstrimple 3y ago
  The shame is we need to focus on both. We have to elevate those in a position to take advantage of it while also providing a solid baseline we need everyone to reach. I sympathize with the peers helping peers aspect. I know one way to learn a lot about a topic is to teach it, so there’s potentially value to both the more advanced and less advanced students. But what would a program like that even look like? I probably would have failed out of high school instead of almost failing if I didn’t have access to AP classes. And I’m fortunate AP classes were based on test scores and not grades for that school. Those classes were the only interesting classes for me. So I hate the idea of them not being an option. But I also would have benefitted a lot from being put into a position to mentor another student on a topic they didn’t understand. Hard to say which would have benefited me more.

notyofriend 3y ago

This is the way. Singapore math and Russian math programs have exploded in popularity due to school failure.

stillwithit 3y ago

> local public schools decided to keep everyone at the same math level That was a thing when I went to public school in the late 80s-90s. Easier for schools to manage assembly line thinkers. This is 100% intentional government policy. The kids who don’t fit in the system are “troublemakers”. My family is full of PhDs and tutored me. Teachers tried telling my parents otherwise but the fam laughed in their face and pulled the “free speech” card. Look at the ages of politicians, the material comfort they have, then question with a straight face why our society is ossified and half asleep.