4 ms·

> I was blind but now I see, we ARE human resources, and it's very likely none of us are irreplaceable, none of us matter really all that much to our employers.

> I was blind but now I see, we ARE human resources, and it's very likely none of us are irreplaceable, none of us matter really all that much to our employers... Interestingly, there was a really good article in the NY times yesterday that made that exact point: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/03/business/economy/doctors-pharmacists-labor-unions.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/03/business/economy/doctors-... Basically, the article was talking about how being a doctor or pharmacist used to be a very respected profession, and most doctors/pharmacists didn't previously see the need to unionize. With all the consolidation that's gone on in medicine over the past couple decades, though (the article talks about how many of them used to be partners in small doctor groups, that is increasingly rare these days), they now realize they're wage slaves just like the rest of us, and their management has been treating them like interchangeable widgets to squeeze the most productivity out of. If doctors are unionizing, maybe software developers should rethink their historical aversion to the idea.

CamperBob2 3y ago
Quite a stretch from "This company hired too many people and ended up having to lay off some" and "Hmm, maybe we're not as irreplaceable as we like to think" to "Let's all make ourselves less attractive to our employers by threatening to gang up on them." But I guess unionization is the universal solvent for every HR problem around here.
- 4iuvosvjf23 3y ago
  How is that a stretch? If we're not irreplaceable then ganging up on our employers is a way for us to reclaim some of the leverage in this transaction that we lose by being replaceable.
  - dingnuts 3y ago
    it's not even ganging up, it's just hiring a middleman to do your negotiation for you, and they take a cut. I'm good
    - hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
      > it's just hiring a middleman to do your negotiation for you, and they take a cut. That's a bad take. I can understand reasons for not wanting to join a union, but that's a pretty ridiculous assessment of what goes on. The thing is, all of us like to believe we're special snowflakes and uniquely valuable. What many are realizing is that some of the only real power most of have is if we act collectively. It's not just "a middle man doing the negotiation for you", it's union members acting together, and organizing that way, that gives unions any power at all. Just look at the recent Hollywood strikes - the only reason they got anywhere is the strong power of their unions (e.g. union members aren't allowed to work for any struck employer, worldwide, while a strike is ongoing). And actors and writers really do have special snowflakes, the big stars that make millions per film, and they're all union members, too.
    - explaininjs 3y ago
      Don’t forget all the “oh yeah I’m not allowed to fix that, that’s a CSS bug and I’m a JS Developer. You’ll need to bring in a CSS development team to look at that one”.
      - eropple 3y ago
        You understand that that only happens in unions when the union assents to those divisions, right? You understand that you get to vote about whether your union operates that way?
        explaininjs 3y ago
        You understand you’ve removed all personal agency from the worker? They must now do what the thousands of others have decided is best for their job security, not what that individual actually wants to do. My gf used to be a split artist/technical person at her job, she loved it. It got unionized, and now: “Sorry bub, union says you aren’t allowed to make art any more. Keep your head down and script your scripts, we’re getting a real artist for the other parts. Oh yeah and it will be way more work to integrate with them than if you were doing the full stack, but we still want it done in the same amount of time so work late or whatever. Thanks!”
  - CamperBob2 3y ago
    If we're not irreplaceable then ganging up on our employers is a way for us to reclaim some of the leverage Let's say I have a company with an R&D budget of $1 billion. $100 million goes into robotics and AI, $900 million goes into core business interests. You form a union and demand all kinds of ridiculous accommodations that you could never have reasonably asked for on your own. What will happen when budgeting for the next fiscal year? Replacing you is a core business interest now, and so is avoiding the need to hire your replacement. The R&D budget will be adjusted accordingly. If you want "leverage," the best way to achieve that is to make yourself more valuable, not less.
    - computronus 3y ago
      > demand all kinds of ridiculous accommodations that you could never have reasonably asked for on your own The union oughtn't seek "ridiculous" accommodations then. It should seek at least reasonable ones, and possible aspirational ones, and negotiate it out from there. The problem we're seeing now is that even demands that most would find reasonable are cast as ridiculous by management. And if a union has trouble getting employers to listen, there's no hope that someone on their own can. I've personally lost faith that a typical employer is capable of recognizing the value of an individual employee. So many of the recent layoffs have not accounted for individual performance or criticality to the business (Twitter's being a good example). So my own value isn't as strong of a bargaining chip.
      - CamperBob2 3y ago
        So many of the recent layoffs have not accounted for individual performance or criticality to the business And you think a union will? Unions make more sense when the workers actually are interchangeable. Are you?
        computronus 3y ago
        It doesn't matter, if my employer would treat me as interchangeable anyway. And even interchangeable employees deserve reasonable accommodations. I do think a union can highlight those needs more effectively than individuals (especially for interchangeable ones, to your point).
- I_Am_Nous 3y ago
  If Human Resources are just replaceable resources, you don't care about them outside of what they can do for you. If a company is consistently failing to recognize their employees as people who deserve dignity, maybe a collective group is necessary to ensure they start to. This can be government based or be a private union, but companies don't usually make changes beneficial to employees without some kind of outside pressure.
- ctoth 3y ago
  I'm just trying to understand why on earth you wrote "gang up" here. The corporation has an HR department. Usually, this consists of more than one person. The corporation has a hell of a lot more money, legal resources, (money is speech, my friend) and so on than you do. Why isn't it obvious... the most natural thing in the world... That you would also want more than just you on your side? This is like saying "why did you join an army instead of just fighting the bad guys single-handed?" I must be missing something here, because you said this and everybody just went along with it like "oh yeah why would we do that? when this seems like asking "Why did you start a company with your friend to gang up on that new project you guys were talking about instead of just doing it yourself?" Totally, completely confused.
  - CamperBob2 3y ago
    I've been lucky, I guess. I've never felt like I was working for the "bad guys."
    - jodrellblank 3y ago
      As usual, the anti-union argument on HN is "The rest of you shouldn't put up lion defenses to protect you because I'm strong enough to fight off a lion and the fences would just get in my way". Hopefully for you, your luck holds, and you never get ill/weak/sick/unable to fight lions. Like everyone else does eventually.
      - CamperBob2 3y ago
        (Shrug) The site is run by a VC fund, and is intentionally (but increasingly ineffectively) geared towards an audience of people interested in, or actively working on, startup companies. Is this really the best place to sell the whole "dark Satanic mills" schtick?
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

CamperBob2 3y ago

Quite a stretch from "This company hired too many people and ended up having to lay off some" and "Hmm, maybe we're not as irreplaceable as we like to think" to "Let's all make ourselves less attractive to our employers by threatening to gang up on them." But I guess unionization is the universal solvent for every HR problem around here.

4iuvosvjf23 3y ago
How is that a stretch? If we're not irreplaceable then ganging up on our employers is a way for us to reclaim some of the leverage in this transaction that we lose by being replaceable.
- dingnuts 3y ago
  it's not even ganging up, it's just hiring a middleman to do your negotiation for you, and they take a cut. I'm good
  - hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
    > it's just hiring a middleman to do your negotiation for you, and they take a cut. That's a bad take. I can understand reasons for not wanting to join a union, but that's a pretty ridiculous assessment of what goes on. The thing is, all of us like to believe we're special snowflakes and uniquely valuable. What many are realizing is that some of the only real power most of have is if we act collectively. It's not just "a middle man doing the negotiation for you", it's union members acting together, and organizing that way, that gives unions any power at all. Just look at the recent Hollywood strikes - the only reason they got anywhere is the strong power of their unions (e.g. union members aren't allowed to work for any struck employer, worldwide, while a strike is ongoing). And actors and writers really do have special snowflakes, the big stars that make millions per film, and they're all union members, too.
  - explaininjs 3y ago
    Don’t forget all the “oh yeah I’m not allowed to fix that, that’s a CSS bug and I’m a JS Developer. You’ll need to bring in a CSS development team to look at that one”.
    - eropple 3y ago
      You understand that that only happens in unions when the union assents to those divisions, right? You understand that you get to vote about whether your union operates that way?
      - explaininjs 3y ago
        You understand you’ve removed all personal agency from the worker? They must now do what the thousands of others have decided is best for their job security, not what that individual actually wants to do. My gf used to be a split artist/technical person at her job, she loved it. It got unionized, and now: “Sorry bub, union says you aren’t allowed to make art any more. Keep your head down and script your scripts, we’re getting a real artist for the other parts. Oh yeah and it will be way more work to integrate with them than if you were doing the full stack, but we still want it done in the same amount of time so work late or whatever. Thanks!”
- CamperBob2 3y ago
  If we're not irreplaceable then ganging up on our employers is a way for us to reclaim some of the leverage Let's say I have a company with an R&D budget of $1 billion. $100 million goes into robotics and AI, $900 million goes into core business interests. You form a union and demand all kinds of ridiculous accommodations that you could never have reasonably asked for on your own. What will happen when budgeting for the next fiscal year? Replacing you is a core business interest now, and so is avoiding the need to hire your replacement. The R&D budget will be adjusted accordingly. If you want "leverage," the best way to achieve that is to make yourself more valuable, not less.
  - computronus 3y ago
    > demand all kinds of ridiculous accommodations that you could never have reasonably asked for on your own The union oughtn't seek "ridiculous" accommodations then. It should seek at least reasonable ones, and possible aspirational ones, and negotiate it out from there. The problem we're seeing now is that even demands that most would find reasonable are cast as ridiculous by management. And if a union has trouble getting employers to listen, there's no hope that someone on their own can. I've personally lost faith that a typical employer is capable of recognizing the value of an individual employee. So many of the recent layoffs have not accounted for individual performance or criticality to the business (Twitter's being a good example). So my own value isn't as strong of a bargaining chip.
    - CamperBob2 3y ago
      So many of the recent layoffs have not accounted for individual performance or criticality to the business And you think a union will? Unions make more sense when the workers actually are interchangeable. Are you?
      - computronus 3y ago
        It doesn't matter, if my employer would treat me as interchangeable anyway. And even interchangeable employees deserve reasonable accommodations. I do think a union can highlight those needs more effectively than individuals (especially for interchangeable ones, to your point).
I_Am_Nous 3y ago
If Human Resources are just replaceable resources, you don't care about them outside of what they can do for you. If a company is consistently failing to recognize their employees as people who deserve dignity, maybe a collective group is necessary to ensure they start to. This can be government based or be a private union, but companies don't usually make changes beneficial to employees without some kind of outside pressure.
ctoth 3y ago
I'm just trying to understand why on earth you wrote "gang up" here. The corporation has an HR department. Usually, this consists of more than one person. The corporation has a hell of a lot more money, legal resources, (money is speech, my friend) and so on than you do. Why isn't it obvious... the most natural thing in the world... That you would also want more than just you on your side? This is like saying "why did you join an army instead of just fighting the bad guys single-handed?" I must be missing something here, because you said this and everybody just went along with it like "oh yeah why would we do that? when this seems like asking "Why did you start a company with your friend to gang up on that new project you guys were talking about instead of just doing it yourself?" Totally, completely confused.
- CamperBob2 3y ago
  I've been lucky, I guess. I've never felt like I was working for the "bad guys."
  - jodrellblank 3y ago
    As usual, the anti-union argument on HN is "The rest of you shouldn't put up lion defenses to protect you because I'm strong enough to fight off a lion and the fences would just get in my way". Hopefully for you, your luck holds, and you never get ill/weak/sick/unable to fight lions. Like everyone else does eventually.
    - CamperBob2 3y ago
      (Shrug) The site is run by a VC fund, and is intentionally (but increasingly ineffectively) geared towards an audience of people interested in, or actively working on, startup companies. Is this really the best place to sell the whole "dark Satanic mills" schtick?

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]