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Ha I just watched a documentary that mentioned this pigment. Fall of Civilizations 17 - Carthage: Empire of the Phoenecians https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6d

• yuppiepuppie 3y ago
  There is a podcast too which I listen to on the go. I’m also American and living in Europe for the past decade, and having dived into history such as Roman, Carthage, the Celts, … has really made me appreciate the vast history of our species. I can drive down the ride and see a huge castle the was attacked by Hannibal on his quest for Rome. And my native friends where I live couldn’t care less :( I hope America can preserve its history for a while so others can enjoy it in 1000 years like we do with Rome.
  • brnt 3y ago
    You are perhaps only looking at big history, as does the trope prescribe ;) Chances are that your native friends have a lot of small history to tell, and you might find it interesting.
    • yuppiepuppie 3y ago
      For sure. Even my wifes grandmother has quite a good history story with the Spanish civil war :) I love hearing those stories.
  • graphe 3y ago
    Americans have preserved their history somewhat. https://youtu.be/aB6AUYr6Ecs https://youtu.be/aB6AUYr6Ecs great channel, fascinating especially their collapsing hierarchies. They formed temporary hierarchies to build luxurious settlements for everyone to live in, then collapsed back into being non hierarchical.
  • botanical 3y ago
    > And my native friends where I live couldn’t care less :( Well, I wouldn't care for the history of a long dead civilisation either if my own civilisation and culture has been destroyed in the last half millennium by invaders. There are less than 4 million people in 2023. And America will preserve its history but I don't think it will be seen in a positive light to be enjoyed.
  • boringg 3y ago
    Library of Congress.
  • robga 3y ago
    And out as a book shortly https://fallofcivilizationspodcast.com/2023/10/16/fall-of-civilizations-book/ https://fallofcivilizationspodcast.com/2023/10/16/fall-of-ci...
• borissk 3y ago
  Phoenicians, the people who founded Carthage, also used an early alphabet (depending on who you ask it may have been the first alphabet). English alphabet is based on Latin, which is based on Etruscan, which is based on Greek, which is based on the Phoenician alphabet. Growing up in Europe Phoenicia and Carthage were covered extensively in school. Interesting why in US schools they don't teach world geography and history.
  • dr_dshiv 3y ago
    They did in my public school… But I only recently learned about the final fall of Carthage in the second Punic war, when Hannibal had to return to Africa to face the young Roman general Scipio. The war elephants weren’t so veteran and so the Roman’s were able to scare them off as they charged, breaking the Carthaginian line, leading to a rapid routing. Great battles were described in fairly great detail —
    • borissk 3y ago
      I've heard the hypothesis that many in the US elite saw the confrontation with USSR as being similar to the Punic wars. With US similar to Carthage being the sea/trading power and USSR similar to Rome being the land power - poorer, but highly militarized. This being one of the arguments for keeping the US military budget high, as one of the reason for Carthage destruction was it's elites had a lot of money, but didn't invest enough into army and navy.
    • ffgjgf1 3y ago
      > the final fall of Carthage in the second Punic war The final (non-metaphorical) Fall happened at the end of the third Punic War about 50 years later.
    • fl7305 3y ago
      > The war elephants weren’t so veteran and so the Roman’s were able to scare them off as they charged Just smear a bunch of pigs with flammable grease, set on fire, and send off towards the elephants who will promptly panic. Super easy, barely an inconvience.
• seydor 3y ago
  Fall of civilizations is an amazing series. Add the Minoans to the list of fallen civilizations that extracted purple before the Pheniceans
• actionfromafar 3y ago
  The Amazons[0] lived in Ukraine and Achilles[1] was buried on Snake Island. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazons 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achilles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achilles
• bozhark 3y ago
  the sea peoples bit has my mind spinning still
  • chubot 3y ago
    Yeah in general the existence of so many sophisticated peoples without surviving words or even names/identities -- peoples with the ability to wage warfare against established civilizations like Egypt -- is a bit haunting to me It reminds me of Graeber's Dawn of Humanity (good book, though I would also say there are parts you can skim, and still get the message. Also I don't take everything at face value, but it's worth thinking about) He reminds us that there were politically conscious groups of Homo Sapiens living for tens of thousands of years throughout history! They organized their societies in much different ways than ours. But many of them didn't leave a trace, either because they didn't write stuff down, or because their documents were destroyed by other people who were able to get on ships with weapons and diseases. (I actually didn't know that the Romans completely destroyed Carthage's documents and libraries before watching the podcast. They wiped them off the face of the Earth, so the only things we know about Carthage are what the Romans said. Also, "Carthage" isn't even what they called their city -- it's what the Romans called it.) History is really written by the winners of wars, but there are other ways to live
• jowea 3y ago
  > Also, I have heard of "Carthage" from all those movies like Gladiator ... Somehow it escaped me until my 40's that Carthage was founded by people from what's now Syria, and the city was in what's now Tunisia At least accordingly to myth Carthage was colonized from Tyre, which is today in Lebanon.
  • KineticLensman 3y ago
    > At least accordingly to myth And a lot of archaeological evidence! > Carthage was colonized from Tyre, which is today in Lebanon. It was founded by Phoenicians [0], whose land today largely coincides with modern-day Lebanon, which as a self-governing state is a relatively modern construct (post WW1). [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia
    • boringg 3y ago
      Phoenicians didn't call themselves phoenicians either.
      • nolok 3y ago
        And then there are the Sea Peoples https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples
        • boringg 3y ago
          I feel like most believable group for the sea peoples were migrants who had to leave their lands because the food supply had collapsed. Wasn't it the salinity had increased in deserts or something similar to that?
    • stork19 3y ago
      Actually, a self-governing Lebanon existed in one form or another since at least the 16th century: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Lebanon_Emirate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Lebanon_Emirate
• dghughes 3y ago
  Carthage has to have the goofiest downfall of a culture in all history. The Carthaginians labelled their ship parts for efficient construction. Rome captured one of their ships and found all the labels. Rome then made the better style ship made by Carthage and conquered them mainly due to the ships. It's like death by Ikea.
  • ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
    > It's like death by Ikea. You win the Internet.
  • himinlomax 3y ago
    Carthage and Rome also fought what was by some measures (by number of ships or sailors) the biggest naval battle of all times, even taking WW2 into account.
    • nolok 3y ago
      Fun fact is that they have this record "only" because the east asians seas just kept screwing with everyone doing massive fleets. The mongols, koreans, japans ...
  • chadash 3y ago
    The Romans actually had a difficult time beating the Carthaginian navy. They tried to copy their ships, but without the ship-building experience, they didn't have much success. To level the playing field, they invented the corvus (AKA the "crow") [1] which was a boarding bridge designed to pierce the enemy ship and allow combatants to board. This played to Rome's strength as a land power with much better hand-to-hand combat troops. The Corvus had much success in battle, but it is thought to have significantly weighed down ships and offset their center of mass. So at one point, the Roman Navy was stuck in a storm and is thought to have lost over 350 naval ships (and 300 cargo ships) and 100k men at once. It is thought that the corvus might have been responsible for making the ships more likely to capsize during this storm, as the Romans stopped using them after this disaster [2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corvus_(boarding_device) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corvus_(boarding_device) [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_withdrawal_from_Africa_(255_BC)#Storm_off_Camarina https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_withdrawal_from_Africa_(...
• chadash 3y ago
  I didn’t realize this is on YouTube. I see it provides a little bit of visual context, but I listen to this as a podcast and I agree, it’s absolutely fantastic quality material. The Greenland Vikings was my favorite of the four I’ve heard so far (Greenland, Carthage, Nabateans and Byzantium) but they are all very good.
• wolverine876 3y ago
  > There were a bunch I didn't know about at all -- like medieval civilizations in Cambodia, Burma, and Jordan. They were wealthy, and built huge things, and then disappeared. I met a traveller from an antique land, Who said—“Two vast and trunkless legs of stone Stand in the desert. . . . Near them, on the sand, Half sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown, And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command, Tell that its sculptor well those passions read Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things, The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed; And on the pedestal, these words appear: My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings; Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair! Nothing beside remains. Round the decay Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare The lone and level sands stretch far away.”
  • _a_a_a_ 3y ago
    There's a bit more to this story "Shelley wrote the poem in friendly competition with his friend and fellow poet Horace Smith (1779–1849), who also wrote a sonnet on the same topic with the same title." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozymandias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozymandias Horace's entry is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozymandias_(Smith) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozymandias_(Smith) In Egypt's sandy silence, all alone, Stands a gigantic Leg, which far off throws The only shadow that the Desert knows:— "I am great OZYMANDIAS," saith the stone, "The King of Kings; this mighty City shows The wonders of my hand."— The City's gone,— Naught but the Leg remaining to disclose The site of this forgotten Babylon. We wonder — and some Hunter may express Wonder like ours, when thro' the wilderness Where London stood, holding the Wolf in chace, He meets some fragment huge, and stops to guess What powerful but unrecorded race Once dwelt in that annihilated place Shelley's is arguably better but I like both.
• Tagbert 3y ago
  There is also a podcast for Fall of Civilizations if audio works better for you
• otteromkram 3y ago
  > I guess being American I have a fuzzy picture of that side of the world, and what it looked like in ancient times. Whoa, whoa, whoa...that's a "you" problem, not a "we" problem. Lots of people in America know about history and geography. We're glad that you took interest and keep at it, but let's not perpetuate false stereotypes.