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Jai has a lot of interesting and clever design ideas but I would never use it for anything serious, even if it was actually released. Jon Blow is probably the

Jai has a lot of interesting and clever design ideas but I would never use it for anything serious, even if it was actually released. Jon Blow is probably the worst person possible to be in charge of a programming language. He seems to be disgusted by everyone and everything and have complete disdain for anything that didn't come directly from him. The fact that he still hasn't released this language after over half a decade shows that he just doesn't create things for other people non commercially.

wredue 3y ago
He certainly doesn’t like shitty programs… which seems to be the vast majority of software today. You can shit on him and Muratori all you like for this push they are doing, but ultimately, they have both put their money where their mouth is.
- CyberDildonics 3y ago
  for this push they are doing, I know about the handmade hero website and love it in theory, but how does an unreleased language that no one can use because the author looks down on everyone help anyone?
  - Xeamek 3y ago
    >no one can use because the author looks down on everyone help anyone. Citation needed. Blow has different aproach when it comes to building the language (it's project driven, as he is working in it alongside his bug commercial game), but that's it. Nothing about looking down on others
- Ygg2 3y ago
  As much as I like Muratori, making sweeping statements about performance overlooks that vast majority of people prefer performance penalties over feature penalties. How software is used and maintained should dictate how you develop it. Is it some software that thrives on features being delivered fast (office suite, image editors)? Perf can suffer, bugs are acceptable. Is it something that needs to be safe at all cost (critical car safety, medical software)? Perf must be tolerable but bugs are no go. Is it something that has no hard perf requirements but will be maintained for decades. Make code clean, treat performance as non-issue.
  - wredue 3y ago
    You’re exactly the type of “excuse factory” person that Muratori talks about. >maintainable software means bad performance It literally doesn’t. In many cases, it’s actually the exact opposite. Interestingly, “maintainable software” not only has shit performance, but also often has incredibly shit maintainability. Muratori, in fact, isn’t even pushing for low level optimization or even benchmarking at this point. In his latest talks, he’s actually just pushing for “don’t make your software garbage based on ominous ‘it’s NoT MAiNTaInAbLE’ claims”, or as he puts it, “non-pessimized”. He literally just pushes for “writing the code that actually needs to be written to accomplish the task”. That’s it. The programmer ego problem is substantially out of hand, so let’s just spell it out: You cannot and will not successfully predict the future of your code, so stop making your code worse by trying to.
    - Ygg2 3y ago
      > It literally doesn’t. It literally does. You want high performance, and not just low hanging fruits? That means branchless code, SIMD and manual loop unrolling. That code is highly arcane. I'm not talking about just use better data/algo. That's every CS grad common knowledge. > He literally just pushes for “writing the code that actually needs to be written to accomplish the task”. That’s it. If he does, it goes against his rants about slow software. If slow software sells, it already accomplished its task. Getting sold/accepted. Maintainable code means easier for others to start working. And lessening the future bus factor (what happens if most knowledgeable person leaves). I.e. you're optimizing for different set of constraints. > You’re exactly the type of “excuse factory” person that Muratori talks about. Man, you need to watch less Muratori. You're tripping things.
chii 3y ago
> he just doesn't create things for other people non commercially. and it's his right not to. He is making a language for himself to make games with. It's designed for that purpose. It's a nice "coincidence" that it's also good for other purposes. His opinionated choices is his, and if you don't like it, it doesn't make his output any worse than anybody else's. He's certainly not the worst person to be in charge of a language - esp. if that language is meant to be for himself!
- CyberDildonics 3y ago
  and it's his right not to I didn't say it wasn't. He's certainly not the worst person to be in charge of a language - esp. if that language is meant to be for himself! This thread is about other people using jai (even though it isn't released), what point are you trying to make here?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- xigoi 3y ago
  Now the question is, why is a personal language that he doesn’t want other people to use getting so much publicity?
  - chii 3y ago
    > he doesn’t want other people to use getting so much publicity? i dont think it's the case that he doesn't want other people to use it. he just doesn't want other people who don't have the same opinion as him to bother him about changing it in a way that he doesn't care for. As an example, there's bugs in the compiler, but those bugs could be worked around currently if not annoying. However, it would be a folly for jonathan or his team to fix those bugs at this stage rather than spending time exploring the design space of the language. By keeping it closed and selective, he would not have to deal with such problems. As for publicity, i have no idea. It's an interesting language, and interesting things gain publicity presumably.
Xeamek 3y ago
I'd argue that having a disdain for everyone and everything is actually an upside, and while I won't expect such aproach to become mainstream, I definitely appreciate it as a niche possibility
- CyberDildonics 3y ago
  Maybe if he released the language and updated his changes in a main branch on github, but he won't do it. How many years has it been? All this time people could have been building libraries and tools.

wredue 3y ago

He certainly doesn’t like shitty programs… which seems to be the vast majority of software today. You can shit on him and Muratori all you like for this push they are doing, but ultimately, they have both put their money where their mouth is.

CyberDildonics 3y ago
for this push they are doing, I know about the handmade hero website and love it in theory, but how does an unreleased language that no one can use because the author looks down on everyone help anyone?
- Xeamek 3y ago
  >no one can use because the author looks down on everyone help anyone. Citation needed. Blow has different aproach when it comes to building the language (it's project driven, as he is working in it alongside his bug commercial game), but that's it. Nothing about looking down on others
Ygg2 3y ago
As much as I like Muratori, making sweeping statements about performance overlooks that vast majority of people prefer performance penalties over feature penalties. How software is used and maintained should dictate how you develop it. Is it some software that thrives on features being delivered fast (office suite, image editors)? Perf can suffer, bugs are acceptable. Is it something that needs to be safe at all cost (critical car safety, medical software)? Perf must be tolerable but bugs are no go. Is it something that has no hard perf requirements but will be maintained for decades. Make code clean, treat performance as non-issue.
- wredue 3y ago
  You’re exactly the type of “excuse factory” person that Muratori talks about. >maintainable software means bad performance It literally doesn’t. In many cases, it’s actually the exact opposite. Interestingly, “maintainable software” not only has shit performance, but also often has incredibly shit maintainability. Muratori, in fact, isn’t even pushing for low level optimization or even benchmarking at this point. In his latest talks, he’s actually just pushing for “don’t make your software garbage based on ominous ‘it’s NoT MAiNTaInAbLE’ claims”, or as he puts it, “non-pessimized”. He literally just pushes for “writing the code that actually needs to be written to accomplish the task”. That’s it. The programmer ego problem is substantially out of hand, so let’s just spell it out: You cannot and will not successfully predict the future of your code, so stop making your code worse by trying to.
  - Ygg2 3y ago
    > It literally doesn’t. It literally does. You want high performance, and not just low hanging fruits? That means branchless code, SIMD and manual loop unrolling. That code is highly arcane. I'm not talking about just use better data/algo. That's every CS grad common knowledge. > He literally just pushes for “writing the code that actually needs to be written to accomplish the task”. That’s it. If he does, it goes against his rants about slow software. If slow software sells, it already accomplished its task. Getting sold/accepted. Maintainable code means easier for others to start working. And lessening the future bus factor (what happens if most knowledgeable person leaves). I.e. you're optimizing for different set of constraints. > You’re exactly the type of “excuse factory” person that Muratori talks about. Man, you need to watch less Muratori. You're tripping things.

chii 3y ago

> he just doesn't create things for other people non commercially. and it's his right not to. He is making a language for himself to make games with. It's designed for that purpose. It's a nice "coincidence" that it's also good for other purposes. His opinionated choices is his, and if you don't like it, it doesn't make his output any worse than anybody else's. He's certainly not the worst person to be in charge of a language - esp. if that language is meant to be for himself!

CyberDildonics 3y ago
and it's his right not to I didn't say it wasn't. He's certainly not the worst person to be in charge of a language - esp. if that language is meant to be for himself! This thread is about other people using jai (even though it isn't released), what point are you trying to make here?
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
xigoi 3y ago
Now the question is, why is a personal language that he doesn’t want other people to use getting so much publicity?
- chii 3y ago
  > he doesn’t want other people to use getting so much publicity? i dont think it's the case that he doesn't want other people to use it. he just doesn't want other people who don't have the same opinion as him to bother him about changing it in a way that he doesn't care for. As an example, there's bugs in the compiler, but those bugs could be worked around currently if not annoying. However, it would be a folly for jonathan or his team to fix those bugs at this stage rather than spending time exploring the design space of the language. By keeping it closed and selective, he would not have to deal with such problems. As for publicity, i have no idea. It's an interesting language, and interesting things gain publicity presumably.

Xeamek 3y ago

I'd argue that having a disdain for everyone and everything is actually an upside, and while I won't expect such aproach to become mainstream, I definitely appreciate it as a niche possibility

CyberDildonics 3y ago
Maybe if he released the language and updated his changes in a main branch on github, but he won't do it. How many years has it been? All this time people could have been building libraries and tools.