6 ms·

I'm disappointed at the anti-DIY sentiments here, it's this safety obsessed mentality that got us to where kids can't walk outside by themselves any longer. Th

I'm disappointed at the anti-DIY sentiments here, it's this safety obsessed mentality that got us to where kids can't walk outside by themselves any longer. The box in that guy's build is outside and could probably burn to a crisp without hurting anything else. I suspect it would not hurt anything even inside a garage, other than making a lot of smoke and setting off smoke detectors.

wannacboatmovie 3y ago
Fairly certain most DIY electrical work is strictly verboten in the UK, where the author is located. I would think at a minimum you need approval from the council. Not too dissimilar to the permitting process in the US, but the UK is noticeably more safety-obsessed.
- rcxdude 3y ago
  Well, there's a pretty large fraction which is still fine to do full DIY. (but not EV chargers) The next level basically either requires some certification or to get the council to inspect it, but plenty of people just ignore that.
  - folmar 3y ago
    It seems things are pretty lax in the UK. Here in Poland you need a qualification certificate to replace a broken socket and a supervisors' certificate to move it half a meter.
- OJFord 3y ago
  > Fairly certain most DIY electrical work is strictly verboten in the UK No. You can't touch the consumer unit, and there's a restricted zone around bath/shower for example (by distance), but most things a homeowner might want to do are perfectly legal to DIY. > the US, but the UK is noticeably more safety-obsessed. Crikey, are you joking? Internet forums are awash with US concern over 'code', and to extend beyond electricity: food safety, FDA guidelines, all sorts of common senseless rubbish.
  - MrStonedOne 3y ago
    Nobody outside of the uk knows what a "consumer unit" is. that sounds to me like you can't touch the breaker panel which is what you have to touch to wire in a new circuit.
irjustin 3y ago
> I'm disappointed at the anti-DIY sentiments here, it's this safety obsessed mentality that got us to where kids can't walk outside by themselves any longer. The leaps here are way too big.
- finnjohnsen2 3y ago
  and big leaps are certainly not safe
schiffern 3y ago
>I'm disappointed at the anti-DIY sentiment How would you feel about a "DIY House Circuit Breakers" project? This is essentially the equivalent. Total insanity.
- foobarian 3y ago
  I disagree though, DIY circuit breakers actually could burn down your house, which I think is a step up from this project. It's like a DIY kernel file system driver vs. DIY bittorrent client.
  - nsteel 3y ago
    If you put something like this in your garage and you get it wrong (despite using the right components), you can cause an electrical fire. Burning your house down seems quite possible. But I appreciate he didn't put this in his garage. However, even hooking it up to the CU is not something some random guy should be doing: https://www.speakev.com/threads/a-cautionary-tale-of-severe-electrical-fire.152651/?post_id=2872381&nested_view=1#post-2872381 https://www.speakev.com/threads/a-cautionary-tale-of-severe-... (this one was probably due to not-adequately tightening the terminals, would you even think/know as a DIY'er?)
- repiret 3y ago
  I disagree - the actual current switching electronics are off-the-shelf relays. It's more like "didn't use a GFCI or AFCI breaker where one is required, but did try to address the same safety hazard those breakers address, in a way that wasn't as good as such a breaker, but isn't totally incompetent"
  - schiffern 3y ago
    > the actual current switching electronics are off-the-shelf relays So? The system that controls the relay (with logic to prevent exposed high-voltage contacts while the car is unplugged, or danger if the cord is damaged or immersed in water) is just as safety-critical as the relay itself. > "didn't use a GFCI or AFCI breaker where one is required, but did try to address the same safety hazard those breakers address, in a way that wasn't as good as such a breaker Stop right there. What you describe is automatically incompetent, all by itself. Seriously, don't do this ever. There are extremely good reasons why anything but certified, unmodified hardware is illegal to install in electrical wiring. There are equally good reasons why you can't omit required safety hardware, even if you "tried" with something else. These laws are written in blood.
tw04 3y ago
>I'm disappointed at the anti-DIY sentiments here, it's this safety obsessed mentality that got us to where kids can't walk outside by themselves any longer. Just no? That analogy is EXTREMELY strained. From his own link: A word about safety. I’m not an electrician. I’m not allowed to make alterations to my consumer unit. I let my kids play outside all the time solo and with friends without supervision. On the flip side, I don't do things like design my own L2 charger because it violates several codes, would nullify my homeowners insurance, and could quite literally land me in prison should I mess it up and cause a licensed electrician to die because I did something dumb or cause my car to start on fire killing my family. Do I do my own wiring? Absolutely. Would I mess around with attaching something at 240v that I made from scratch that could burn my house down and kill my family if I do it wrong? Nope, I'm good.
- mindslight 3y ago
  > would nullify my homeowners insurance What is up with this common refrain? One of the main functions of insurance is to indemnify you against your own negligence. Let's say you turn a small stovetop fire into a house fire by trying to put it out with water - the insurance company doesn't just get to stiff you because you were responsible for causing the problem. Are there actually prevalent and enforceable weasel clauses about DIY work in some areas, or is this a scare story popularized by oversocialized redditors fantasizing about what might happen, or what?
  - reanimus 3y ago
    Homeowner's insurance assumes you're doing your due diligence to not do things that unnecessarily destroy your home. Negligence is specifically not covered when it's something that you should have reasonably been able to prevent. There's a difference between a panic-induced response that makes an accidental fire worse and you making the explicit decision to install something unsafe.
    - mindslight 3y ago
      I see the distinction you're making with my specific example, but I'm aware of no such distinction for the policies I've had. Are you referencing any concrete laws or contractual terms? Also then, a different example: You plug in a non-NRTL-tested appliance from Amazon, and it burns down your house. Clearly outside the bounds of what is prudent, but also something many people commonly do. You're telling me that insurance is set up to stiff all of them, and yet we're not seeing endless news articles about that happening?
conk 3y ago
Except this DIY project could kill someone if it malfunctions. There are several inadequate parts of this design that make it a safety risk beyond the fire risk.
- myself248 3y ago
  Oh, please, do tell.
pardoned_turkey 3y ago
All the no-name $6 extension cords from Amazon that we have in our homes are far more likely to burn your place down than this project. It's surprising that we have such cavalier attitudes when it comes to our own field, but so much fear and magical thinking about the power of government oversight when it comes to everything else...
- syndicatedjelly 3y ago
  > It's surprising that we have such cavalier attitudes when it comes to our own field, but so much fear and magical thinking about the power of government oversight when it comes to everything else... You must be new to HN. Let me introduce you to the two types of comments: 1) The problem I am responding to does not involve software. The people in that industry must not be competent. Therefore, the solution is more government regulation. 2) The problem I am responding to involves software. Everyone in my industry is highly competent and moral! Therefore, let the free markets operate and the problem will automatically disappear.
- mcbishop 3y ago
  Yup, I'm sure a lot of people are trickle charging their EVs with 16-gauge extension cords.
flashback2199 3y ago
Don't DIY what you can buy.
- dns_snek 3y ago
  I hope you didn't mean it like that, but the way it's written sounds depressing. Doing & making things (within reason) is the essence of human experience. Buying all the things is the essence of consumerism.
  - flashback2199 3y ago
    It feels depressing until you realize the set of all things that you can DIY that you can't buy is infinite. Factor in that the things you can buy are extremely cheap when you factor in your time, due to mass production. So it doesn't make sense to spend time building something you can just buy. I just think it's a good principle that someone older than me shared with me a long time ago, in an electronics hobby store that no longer exists, when I was buying parts to build a bench power supply, though I had to discover some reasons the hard way. I thought they were being an ass at the time, so I plowed ahead with my project, and realized halfway thru that this project was pretty dumb and I should have just bought one and moved on to a better more interesting project.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
beej71 3y ago
I'm also a little disappointed. Yes it can go wrong, but it sounds like the author has learned a lot and listens to criticism. And clearly embodies the hacker spirit. And I have a large number of items that either came with my house or I purchased legitimately that could absolutely burn it to the ground. It's all measured risk. When I get an EV, I'll be adding a consumer grade charger to the house. And then I'll trust, with zero actual knowledge, that it won't burn down my house, or that my car won't.
- bigfudge 3y ago
  You don’t have zero knowledge though. Most electronics sold is safe, and designs tested. So your prior for them burning down the house should be much lower than for something you diyed
  - beej71 3y ago
    Most is. But there have been two significant house fires from electrical systems in my small town in the last year. It's also my experience that if you have the know-how, you can often do a better job than the professionals you hire, or the factory that mass-produces a product for the highest possible margins.
twothamendment 3y ago
People are weird about electricity. It isn't uncommon for people to be scared when they learn I wired my home which has a 400 amp service. I wired the previous two also. Sure electricity could kill me, burn me, burn down my house, etc., but I don't have to be the one to discover how it works. People have done that and there are building codes to follow that are build upon a whole bunch of previous failures. We all learn different things and are at different places. I can wire my whole house and pass inspection, but I'd never take on this project, that is beyond me - but more power to him for trying. I agree, nothing wrong with some DIY that at most will go up in smoke.

wannacboatmovie 3y ago

Fairly certain most DIY electrical work is strictly verboten in the UK, where the author is located. I would think at a minimum you need approval from the council. Not too dissimilar to the permitting process in the US, but the UK is noticeably more safety-obsessed.

rcxdude 3y ago
Well, there's a pretty large fraction which is still fine to do full DIY. (but not EV chargers) The next level basically either requires some certification or to get the council to inspect it, but plenty of people just ignore that.
- folmar 3y ago
  It seems things are pretty lax in the UK. Here in Poland you need a qualification certificate to replace a broken socket and a supervisors' certificate to move it half a meter.
OJFord 3y ago
> Fairly certain most DIY electrical work is strictly verboten in the UK No. You can't touch the consumer unit, and there's a restricted zone around bath/shower for example (by distance), but most things a homeowner might want to do are perfectly legal to DIY. > the US, but the UK is noticeably more safety-obsessed. Crikey, are you joking? Internet forums are awash with US concern over 'code', and to extend beyond electricity: food safety, FDA guidelines, all sorts of common senseless rubbish.
- MrStonedOne 3y ago
  Nobody outside of the uk knows what a "consumer unit" is. that sounds to me like you can't touch the breaker panel which is what you have to touch to wire in a new circuit.

irjustin 3y ago

> I'm disappointed at the anti-DIY sentiments here, it's this safety obsessed mentality that got us to where kids can't walk outside by themselves any longer. The leaps here are way too big.

finnjohnsen2 3y ago
and big leaps are certainly not safe

schiffern 3y ago

>I'm disappointed at the anti-DIY sentiment How would you feel about a "DIY House Circuit Breakers" project? This is essentially the equivalent. Total insanity.

foobarian 3y ago
I disagree though, DIY circuit breakers actually could burn down your house, which I think is a step up from this project. It's like a DIY kernel file system driver vs. DIY bittorrent client.
- nsteel 3y ago
  If you put something like this in your garage and you get it wrong (despite using the right components), you can cause an electrical fire. Burning your house down seems quite possible. But I appreciate he didn't put this in his garage. However, even hooking it up to the CU is not something some random guy should be doing: https://www.speakev.com/threads/a-cautionary-tale-of-severe-electrical-fire.152651/?post_id=2872381&nested_view=1#post-2872381 https://www.speakev.com/threads/a-cautionary-tale-of-severe-... (this one was probably due to not-adequately tightening the terminals, would you even think/know as a DIY'er?)
repiret 3y ago
I disagree - the actual current switching electronics are off-the-shelf relays. It's more like "didn't use a GFCI or AFCI breaker where one is required, but did try to address the same safety hazard those breakers address, in a way that wasn't as good as such a breaker, but isn't totally incompetent"
- schiffern 3y ago
  > the actual current switching electronics are off-the-shelf relays So? The system that controls the relay (with logic to prevent exposed high-voltage contacts while the car is unplugged, or danger if the cord is damaged or immersed in water) is just as safety-critical as the relay itself. > "didn't use a GFCI or AFCI breaker where one is required, but did try to address the same safety hazard those breakers address, in a way that wasn't as good as such a breaker Stop right there. What you describe is automatically incompetent, all by itself. Seriously, don't do this ever. There are extremely good reasons why anything but certified, unmodified hardware is illegal to install in electrical wiring. There are equally good reasons why you can't omit required safety hardware, even if you "tried" with something else. These laws are written in blood.

tw04 3y ago

>I'm disappointed at the anti-DIY sentiments here, it's this safety obsessed mentality that got us to where kids can't walk outside by themselves any longer. Just no? That analogy is EXTREMELY strained. From his own link: A word about safety. I’m not an electrician. I’m not allowed to make alterations to my consumer unit. I let my kids play outside all the time solo and with friends without supervision. On the flip side, I don't do things like design my own L2 charger because it violates several codes, would nullify my homeowners insurance, and could quite literally land me in prison should I mess it up and cause a licensed electrician to die because I did something dumb or cause my car to start on fire killing my family. Do I do my own wiring? Absolutely. Would I mess around with attaching something at 240v that I made from scratch that could burn my house down and kill my family if I do it wrong? Nope, I'm good.

mindslight 3y ago
> would nullify my homeowners insurance What is up with this common refrain? One of the main functions of insurance is to indemnify you against your own negligence. Let's say you turn a small stovetop fire into a house fire by trying to put it out with water - the insurance company doesn't just get to stiff you because you were responsible for causing the problem. Are there actually prevalent and enforceable weasel clauses about DIY work in some areas, or is this a scare story popularized by oversocialized redditors fantasizing about what might happen, or what?
- reanimus 3y ago
  Homeowner's insurance assumes you're doing your due diligence to not do things that unnecessarily destroy your home. Negligence is specifically not covered when it's something that you should have reasonably been able to prevent. There's a difference between a panic-induced response that makes an accidental fire worse and you making the explicit decision to install something unsafe.
  - mindslight 3y ago
    I see the distinction you're making with my specific example, but I'm aware of no such distinction for the policies I've had. Are you referencing any concrete laws or contractual terms? Also then, a different example: You plug in a non-NRTL-tested appliance from Amazon, and it burns down your house. Clearly outside the bounds of what is prudent, but also something many people commonly do. You're telling me that insurance is set up to stiff all of them, and yet we're not seeing endless news articles about that happening?

conk 3y ago

Except this DIY project could kill someone if it malfunctions. There are several inadequate parts of this design that make it a safety risk beyond the fire risk.

myself248 3y ago
Oh, please, do tell.

pardoned_turkey 3y ago

All the no-name $6 extension cords from Amazon that we have in our homes are far more likely to burn your place down than this project. It's surprising that we have such cavalier attitudes when it comes to our own field, but so much fear and magical thinking about the power of government oversight when it comes to everything else...

syndicatedjelly 3y ago
> It's surprising that we have such cavalier attitudes when it comes to our own field, but so much fear and magical thinking about the power of government oversight when it comes to everything else... You must be new to HN. Let me introduce you to the two types of comments: 1) The problem I am responding to does not involve software. The people in that industry must not be competent. Therefore, the solution is more government regulation. 2) The problem I am responding to involves software. Everyone in my industry is highly competent and moral! Therefore, let the free markets operate and the problem will automatically disappear.
mcbishop 3y ago
Yup, I'm sure a lot of people are trickle charging their EVs with 16-gauge extension cords.

flashback2199 3y ago

Don't DIY what you can buy.

dns_snek 3y ago
I hope you didn't mean it like that, but the way it's written sounds depressing. Doing & making things (within reason) is the essence of human experience. Buying all the things is the essence of consumerism.
- flashback2199 3y ago
  It feels depressing until you realize the set of all things that you can DIY that you can't buy is infinite. Factor in that the things you can buy are extremely cheap when you factor in your time, due to mass production. So it doesn't make sense to spend time building something you can just buy. I just think it's a good principle that someone older than me shared with me a long time ago, in an electronics hobby store that no longer exists, when I was buying parts to build a bench power supply, though I had to discover some reasons the hard way. I thought they were being an ass at the time, so I plowed ahead with my project, and realized halfway thru that this project was pretty dumb and I should have just bought one and moved on to a better more interesting project.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

beej71 3y ago

I'm also a little disappointed. Yes it can go wrong, but it sounds like the author has learned a lot and listens to criticism. And clearly embodies the hacker spirit. And I have a large number of items that either came with my house or I purchased legitimately that could absolutely burn it to the ground. It's all measured risk. When I get an EV, I'll be adding a consumer grade charger to the house. And then I'll trust, with zero actual knowledge, that it won't burn down my house, or that my car won't.

bigfudge 3y ago
You don’t have zero knowledge though. Most electronics sold is safe, and designs tested. So your prior for them burning down the house should be much lower than for something you diyed
- beej71 3y ago
  Most is. But there have been two significant house fires from electrical systems in my small town in the last year. It's also my experience that if you have the know-how, you can often do a better job than the professionals you hire, or the factory that mass-produces a product for the highest possible margins.

twothamendment 3y ago

People are weird about electricity. It isn't uncommon for people to be scared when they learn I wired my home which has a 400 amp service. I wired the previous two also. Sure electricity could kill me, burn me, burn down my house, etc., but I don't have to be the one to discover how it works. People have done that and there are building codes to follow that are build upon a whole bunch of previous failures. We all learn different things and are at different places. I can wire my whole house and pass inspection, but I'd never take on this project, that is beyond me - but more power to him for trying. I agree, nothing wrong with some DIY that at most will go up in smoke.