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Also alarm clocks, caffeine, unnatural sleep schedules. This site[1] has lots of good information, with this basic (unfortunately impossible for many) recommend

Also alarm clocks, caffeine, unnatural sleep schedules. This site[1] has lots of good information, with this basic (unfortunately impossible for many) recommendation: "There is only one formula for healthy and refreshing sleep: Go to sleep only when you are very tired. Not earlier. Not later. Wake up naturally without an alarm clock." [1] https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Science_of_sleep https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Science_of_sleep

EA-3167 3y ago
Unfortunately for me that would entail staying up until 3AM and waking up at 11AM. That might work for me, but it doesn't work for my professional or social life.
- hermanradtke 3y ago
  It is worse. The sleep formula article says free sleep often involves 24 hour sleep sessions, which is practically impossible for most people.
- sen 3y ago
  Yeah I had a period before I had kids and when I worked for myself where I could sleep whenever I wanted. I’d get tired around 3-4am, go to sleep about 5am, wake up around 12-1pm, and felt great every day. The most energy, motivation, and general good moods I’ve had in my life. Then kids + career = 10pm-5am sleep schedule and pretty much feel tired (struggling-to-function tired) 24/7.
  - gambiting 3y ago
    In the same cart now. Not sure how you can stay functional as a human with a 2 year old who won't sleep past 6am. Going to bed super early doesn't seem to help either. I can force myself to go to sleep before 10pm so in theory I get a full restorative 8 hours of sleep, but I don't feel anywhere near as rested as I was doing 2am-10am.
- golergka 3y ago
  One more reason to embrace fully remote work with async communication. I’m in my top work shape at 2am, when slack is dead silent.
- fishtacos 3y ago
  In my teenage years, I was a nocturnal primate. It worked with my work schedule (retail, 2pm start), but, as has been noted by others here, as well, that simply will not work anymore. Both due to age and due to work requirements. Social life isn't particularly impacted, but tiredness due to lack of sleep has impacted both work effectiveness and even getting work, where I showed up at interviews groggy and clearly slower in responses and ability to express what was my intent vs. what came out. Haven't figured out a balance yet, but at the very least I have an idea of what causes it, exacerbated by stress and related causalities. I think the worst aspect of it nowadays is that the cycle seems difficult to break. Thanks to this conversational reminder, I'll try to hit the hay when the body seeks it, no matter how early. Waking up is not a problem. It's the falling asleep part that has caused me to gray severely in the past 3 years, through and post pandemic. It came on so quickly and strongly, I still feel robbed.
  - throwaway2037 3y ago
    Grey hair is your main concern here? Just dye it. (I assume you are a man. Why? Most women in the developed world start dying their hair to hide grey hair in their 40s.) In East Asia, it is also very common for men to dye their hair to hide grey hair.
    - wkat4242 3y ago
      I think the OP doesn't mean the grey hair part literally but figuratively, like synonymous for worry.
      - fishtacos 3y ago
        To reply to you and previous commenter, it's a combination of both. Literally, I've grayed within the past 2 years excessively (or perhaps normal by hittin 40 - it felt rather quick). The worries and stress and existential this and that (without going into details, we all swallow some bullets) clearly made a difference, and CV-19 didn't help. It's ultimately a synonym for worry - and whatever it entails. As for literally dying my hair, I did once a while ago. Never again. It felt awkward, impersonal, awkward (x2), fraudulent, and so on. It's good to feel comfotable in one one's skin, even while it whithers.
- jedberg 3y ago
  During the early pandemic, neither of my kids had school and my wife wasn't working (and I was running my own company and set the meeting time). So we just turned off all the alarms. Went to bed when we wanted, woke up when we wanted. The kids would go to bed around 2am and wake up around 11am. My wife and I would go to bed around 3-4am and wake up at 11am. It was fantastic. Sadly modern life doesn't allow for that, as we have to take them to school at a set time and I have to meet with other people now.
  - ClimaxGravely 3y ago
    That sounds sublime. I'm currently working for a company that allows me to be fairly flexible with my hours and I've found it's been amazing for my productivity. Some days I wake up late and miss a portion of the work day but I'm able to work later and have a fresh mind for the entirety of my work time. With this routine I've found I'm managing to accomplish way more than I did in a previously more rigid environment. Currently I'm an IC so it's easier to have this kind of schedule. At past jobs when I was in more of a managerial role so this wouldn't have been as easy due to the amount of meetings with various partners and employees. This experience has been so positive it's made it so that I'm now pursuing a job/career where I can maintain this lifestyle. I loathe wasting time sitting around because I'm tired.
  - throwaway2037 3y ago
    This is a wild post. Thank you to share! Did you write any blog posts about this experience? I would be a fascinating read.
    - jedberg 3y ago
      No, I didn't think it would be that interesting. I tell the story from time to time when it's relevant. :) I mean, my post above is pretty much all there is. We basically lived on that schedule until my daughter started online kindergarten. Then we made her roll out of bed at 8:38 to be online by 8:40.
      - angrais 3y ago
- gsk22 3y ago
  It sounds like you may have delayed sleep phase disorder -- basically, a late-shifted circadian rhythm. I keep similar hours by default and was diagnosed with DSPD about 5 years ago. It explained a lot of issues in my life and was a relief to hear that I wasn't just "lazy" like all the morning people always told me! As an additional plus, if you are in the United States, sleep disorders qualify as disabilities, which means employers are generally required to make reasonable accommodations, including later working hours. I find that tech companies are generally fine with varying hours anyway, but it's a nice tool to keep in your back pocket in case you have a manager that insists on 9am meetings.
  - wkat4242 3y ago
    I'm pretty sure I have this too. In the evenings I'd always have this invigoration even when I was young. And in the morning I just can't get up. My day is always flexible at the end and never at the start. I wonder where and how to get this diagnosed though.
    - gsk22 3y ago
      Tell your doctor about your symptoms and ask them to refer you to a sleep study. They hook you up to monitors and watch you overnight. That's how I was diagnosed.
hermanradtke 3y ago
> only when you are very tired The sleep formula article said “truly sleepy” which, to me, is significantly different from “very tired”.
globular-toast 3y ago
> "There is only one formula for healthy and refreshing sleep: Go to sleep only when you are very tired. Not earlier. Not later. Wake up naturally without an alarm clock." I did that for years when I was younger. For me that meant a longer-than-24-hour day which quickly led to being completely nocturnal. Those were dark days, literally and figuratively. I can distinctly remember my first "day" without daylight. It wasn't a nice feeling. I would usually try to correct it when that happened which was like having a 12 hour jet lag.
- tstrimple 3y ago
  Whenever I let my schedule go I usually end up in a similar situation. It almost feels like my body would prefer a 19 hour wake period with 7 hours of sleep which would keep my sleep wake cycle rotating throughout a 24 hour period. Not very conducive to working in a business setting with meetings and such.
  - intelVISA 3y ago
    I'm jealous of people who are aligned to the magic 24hr sleep cycle, for me my days feel better as 20hrs awake 10hrs asleep vs traditional 16:8.
    - ClimaxGravely 3y ago
      Absolutely. I often fantasize what a different length day might be like.
- throwawaytemp29 3y ago
  Me too. I had a 26 hour schedule for like a month once. It seems fine til it isn’t.
- earthling8118 3y ago
  I did this once. It was great. I still think of it and wish I could go back. Yes, it causes issues within our society. That's the only thing keeping me from it and I bemoan this on a daily basis. If we were more flexible I could thrive.
nunez 3y ago
That formula does not work if your cicardian rhythm is untuned, which is the case for many people. It takes lots and lots of repetition to get to the point where you can wake up without alarms at a consistent time.
- Fire-Dragon-DoL 3y ago
  Do you have to wake up at the exact same time? I wake up with the alarm only if I go to bed too late, otherwise I assume I have to sleep for 10 hours, go to bed and my body naturally wakes up between 830 and 930 hours of sleep. Very resting. Also if I gwt 2 days of 9 hours, the next day usually I end up sleeping 8 and still feel rested, so it seems the body naturally adjusts

EA-3167 3y ago

Unfortunately for me that would entail staying up until 3AM and waking up at 11AM. That might work for me, but it doesn't work for my professional or social life.

hermanradtke 3y ago
It is worse. The sleep formula article says free sleep often involves 24 hour sleep sessions, which is practically impossible for most people.
sen 3y ago
Yeah I had a period before I had kids and when I worked for myself where I could sleep whenever I wanted. I’d get tired around 3-4am, go to sleep about 5am, wake up around 12-1pm, and felt great every day. The most energy, motivation, and general good moods I’ve had in my life. Then kids + career = 10pm-5am sleep schedule and pretty much feel tired (struggling-to-function tired) 24/7.
- gambiting 3y ago
  In the same cart now. Not sure how you can stay functional as a human with a 2 year old who won't sleep past 6am. Going to bed super early doesn't seem to help either. I can force myself to go to sleep before 10pm so in theory I get a full restorative 8 hours of sleep, but I don't feel anywhere near as rested as I was doing 2am-10am.
golergka 3y ago
One more reason to embrace fully remote work with async communication. I’m in my top work shape at 2am, when slack is dead silent.
fishtacos 3y ago
In my teenage years, I was a nocturnal primate. It worked with my work schedule (retail, 2pm start), but, as has been noted by others here, as well, that simply will not work anymore. Both due to age and due to work requirements. Social life isn't particularly impacted, but tiredness due to lack of sleep has impacted both work effectiveness and even getting work, where I showed up at interviews groggy and clearly slower in responses and ability to express what was my intent vs. what came out. Haven't figured out a balance yet, but at the very least I have an idea of what causes it, exacerbated by stress and related causalities. I think the worst aspect of it nowadays is that the cycle seems difficult to break. Thanks to this conversational reminder, I'll try to hit the hay when the body seeks it, no matter how early. Waking up is not a problem. It's the falling asleep part that has caused me to gray severely in the past 3 years, through and post pandemic. It came on so quickly and strongly, I still feel robbed.
- throwaway2037 3y ago
  Grey hair is your main concern here? Just dye it. (I assume you are a man. Why? Most women in the developed world start dying their hair to hide grey hair in their 40s.) In East Asia, it is also very common for men to dye their hair to hide grey hair.
  - wkat4242 3y ago
    I think the OP doesn't mean the grey hair part literally but figuratively, like synonymous for worry.
    - fishtacos 3y ago
      To reply to you and previous commenter, it's a combination of both. Literally, I've grayed within the past 2 years excessively (or perhaps normal by hittin 40 - it felt rather quick). The worries and stress and existential this and that (without going into details, we all swallow some bullets) clearly made a difference, and CV-19 didn't help. It's ultimately a synonym for worry - and whatever it entails. As for literally dying my hair, I did once a while ago. Never again. It felt awkward, impersonal, awkward (x2), fraudulent, and so on. It's good to feel comfotable in one one's skin, even while it whithers.
jedberg 3y ago
During the early pandemic, neither of my kids had school and my wife wasn't working (and I was running my own company and set the meeting time). So we just turned off all the alarms. Went to bed when we wanted, woke up when we wanted. The kids would go to bed around 2am and wake up around 11am. My wife and I would go to bed around 3-4am and wake up at 11am. It was fantastic. Sadly modern life doesn't allow for that, as we have to take them to school at a set time and I have to meet with other people now.
- ClimaxGravely 3y ago
  That sounds sublime. I'm currently working for a company that allows me to be fairly flexible with my hours and I've found it's been amazing for my productivity. Some days I wake up late and miss a portion of the work day but I'm able to work later and have a fresh mind for the entirety of my work time. With this routine I've found I'm managing to accomplish way more than I did in a previously more rigid environment. Currently I'm an IC so it's easier to have this kind of schedule. At past jobs when I was in more of a managerial role so this wouldn't have been as easy due to the amount of meetings with various partners and employees. This experience has been so positive it's made it so that I'm now pursuing a job/career where I can maintain this lifestyle. I loathe wasting time sitting around because I'm tired.
- throwaway2037 3y ago
  This is a wild post. Thank you to share! Did you write any blog posts about this experience? I would be a fascinating read.
  - jedberg 3y ago
    No, I didn't think it would be that interesting. I tell the story from time to time when it's relevant. :) I mean, my post above is pretty much all there is. We basically lived on that schedule until my daughter started online kindergarten. Then we made her roll out of bed at 8:38 to be online by 8:40.
    - angrais 3y ago
gsk22 3y ago
It sounds like you may have delayed sleep phase disorder -- basically, a late-shifted circadian rhythm. I keep similar hours by default and was diagnosed with DSPD about 5 years ago. It explained a lot of issues in my life and was a relief to hear that I wasn't just "lazy" like all the morning people always told me! As an additional plus, if you are in the United States, sleep disorders qualify as disabilities, which means employers are generally required to make reasonable accommodations, including later working hours. I find that tech companies are generally fine with varying hours anyway, but it's a nice tool to keep in your back pocket in case you have a manager that insists on 9am meetings.
- wkat4242 3y ago
  I'm pretty sure I have this too. In the evenings I'd always have this invigoration even when I was young. And in the morning I just can't get up. My day is always flexible at the end and never at the start. I wonder where and how to get this diagnosed though.
  - gsk22 3y ago
    Tell your doctor about your symptoms and ask them to refer you to a sleep study. They hook you up to monitors and watch you overnight. That's how I was diagnosed.

hermanradtke 3y ago

> only when you are very tired The sleep formula article said “truly sleepy” which, to me, is significantly different from “very tired”.

globular-toast 3y ago

> "There is only one formula for healthy and refreshing sleep: Go to sleep only when you are very tired. Not earlier. Not later. Wake up naturally without an alarm clock." I did that for years when I was younger. For me that meant a longer-than-24-hour day which quickly led to being completely nocturnal. Those were dark days, literally and figuratively. I can distinctly remember my first "day" without daylight. It wasn't a nice feeling. I would usually try to correct it when that happened which was like having a 12 hour jet lag.

tstrimple 3y ago
Whenever I let my schedule go I usually end up in a similar situation. It almost feels like my body would prefer a 19 hour wake period with 7 hours of sleep which would keep my sleep wake cycle rotating throughout a 24 hour period. Not very conducive to working in a business setting with meetings and such.
- intelVISA 3y ago
  I'm jealous of people who are aligned to the magic 24hr sleep cycle, for me my days feel better as 20hrs awake 10hrs asleep vs traditional 16:8.
  - ClimaxGravely 3y ago
    Absolutely. I often fantasize what a different length day might be like.
throwawaytemp29 3y ago
Me too. I had a 26 hour schedule for like a month once. It seems fine til it isn’t.
earthling8118 3y ago
I did this once. It was great. I still think of it and wish I could go back. Yes, it causes issues within our society. That's the only thing keeping me from it and I bemoan this on a daily basis. If we were more flexible I could thrive.

nunez 3y ago

That formula does not work if your cicardian rhythm is untuned, which is the case for many people. It takes lots and lots of repetition to get to the point where you can wake up without alarms at a consistent time.

Fire-Dragon-DoL 3y ago
Do you have to wake up at the exact same time? I wake up with the alarm only if I go to bed too late, otherwise I assume I have to sleep for 10 hours, go to bed and my body naturally wakes up between 830 and 930 hours of sleep. Very resting. Also if I gwt 2 days of 9 hours, the next day usually I end up sleeping 8 and still feel rested, so it seems the body naturally adjusts