3 ms·

>they conclude that we should move back to old mechanical systems. But mechanical systems are not always more reliable. In general I agree, but I worry this gl

>they conclude that we should move back to old mechanical systems. But mechanical systems are not always more reliable. In general I agree, but I worry this glosses over the subtle cases in the middle. In a non-zero number of cases, the only reason electronics are "superior" to mechanical solutions is precisely because it's easy to enforce proprietary restrictions. In this subset of cases, it is proper to replace the electronic solution with a (here, superior) mechanical one. .

seanmcdirmid 3y ago
Actually the lack of minimization of moving parts makes them superior. Friction’s effect on wear and tear is real.
- schiffern 3y ago
  I agree with the general principle. My point is, we should acknowledge that there are some cases "right on the edge" that would naturally favor mechanical instead of electronic solutions, but the ability to cheaply enforce proprietary restrictions pushed them "over the edge" to using an electronic solution instead. In these cases we should indeed consider replacing electronics with mechanical solutions — if not for retrofit, at least for later product iterations.
  - eternityforest 3y ago
    The cases right on the edge are real, but not common. All the examples I can think of are hundreds of years old and have no serious competition from digital stuff, like eating utensils (for abled people, stabilized spoons seem to be a great invention for those who need them). What do you consider an edge case that should be mechanical?
    - schiffern 3y ago
      We don't disagree. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38509700 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38509700
- asdff 3y ago
  Electronics have wear and tear too because at the end of the day it needs to run on some hardware. Solder joints are never built to last until the end of time, just to not lead to a lot of repair claims within the warranty period and any longer is an opportunity to cut costs for a future manager.
  - AussieWog93 3y ago
    I refurbish a whole lot of ewaste as part of my job, and with a few exceptions any time a device fails it's either the electrolytics in the power supply or something mechanical. Solid state electronics technically _can_ fail but their expected service life is an order of magnitude more than the mechanical stuff. Same with properly done solder joints. If they crack, it's either due to mechanical stresses (e.g. constant reinsertion on battery jacks) or it's a design fault (Xbox 360, PS3 cold solder).
    - adhesive_wombat 3y ago
      Or a blown MOSFET that's exactly the right size to work on paper but no more (or is missing ESD protection and blew up a gate).
      - infogulch 3y ago
        Which is a flaw that could be fixed in the design for future runs and a fix documented for earlier runs.
        adhesive_wombat 3y ago
        Excuse me, a properly sized MOSFET is nearly 5p more and a TVS diode is nearly a penny for 4. Why do you hate profits? Jokes aside, I think it's more likely that the undersized parts are the revised design, the original being "wastefully robust".
    - droopyEyelids 3y ago
      That order of magnitude longevity gap is a profit opportunity for the component manufacturers, and people are absolutely working to figure out how to make them cheaper. I dont mean this cynically, only that no one wants to spend extra on overengineered parts.
ksjskskskkk 3y ago
[flagged]
infogulch 3y ago
But if the electronic design is open then what's would be the point of forcing an electronic solution when its inferior? The hypothetical is that electronic designs are open instead of closed.
- samtho 3y ago
  It’s easier to fix with off-the-shelf parts (blown capacitor, damaged MOSFET, etc) than a part in which is manufactured for and by the automaker (e.g. variable valve timing component).
calamari4065 3y ago
Hm, I disagree. DRM is a very modern concept. We originally made electronic solutions to mechanical problems because electronics allows for much more complex and nuanced response to input conditions, as well as the physical advantages of size and complexity. Some systems are better as simple mechanical devices, but I'd put that number at a very, very low percentage. Take your washer, dryer, dishwasher, or oven. These things can be purely mechanical, and are generally incredibly reliable when they are mechanical. In modern times, we've computerized these things for very dubious reasons mainly down to user tracking and enforced obsolescence. But adding network connectivity can be genuinely useful. Get a notification when your laundry or dishes are done. Automatically turn off the oven if you forget to when you leave the house. Track the runtime of your dishwasher and get notified when you need to clean the filter. People would use features like that if it were possible to do so without a proprietary app that barely works, but demands your email and phone number and access to your microphone and camera. Or mandatory firmware updates that slowly degrade performance until you buy a new one. The number of problems that can be solved mechanically and for which electronics cannot provide any extra value for the user is almost certainly very close to zero.
- nudgeee 3y ago
  Just to add to your first point, many washers feature digital control of motors at the very low level, especially for BLDC motor types. This can reduce noise, increase efficiency and longevity of a motor. This requires electronics and software for precise timing control.
  - calamari4065 3y ago
    Eh, I think that's a different thing. The line between machine and electronics is pretty blurry when you get down to it. Is an LED attached to a mechanical switch electronics? What if the switch controls a transistor that switches the light? A relay? A CPU? What if it's an incandescent bulb on a mechanical timer? The distinction isn't super clear, and a lot of electronic circuits are much less complex and more reliable than a mechanical replacement. Is that good or bad? I think the discussion here is less about "uses any electricity at all" and more "uses internet connected DRM to be actively shitty"
eternityforest 3y ago
Electronics separate form and function. The behavior can be anything we want with almost no extra cost. Plus, we can make module and reuse it in thousands of products with only code changes. Electronics lets us pack in more complexity, giving us a place to compensate for imperfections elsewhere, such as users leaving babies behind in hot cars. Plus without proprietary restrictions, nearly every vehicle and appliances in the world could probably use the same 5 modules or so for everything, making repairs rather easy.

seanmcdirmid 3y ago

Actually the lack of minimization of moving parts makes them superior. Friction’s effect on wear and tear is real.

schiffern 3y ago
I agree with the general principle. My point is, we should acknowledge that there are some cases "right on the edge" that would naturally favor mechanical instead of electronic solutions, but the ability to cheaply enforce proprietary restrictions pushed them "over the edge" to using an electronic solution instead. In these cases we should indeed consider replacing electronics with mechanical solutions — if not for retrofit, at least for later product iterations.
- eternityforest 3y ago
  The cases right on the edge are real, but not common. All the examples I can think of are hundreds of years old and have no serious competition from digital stuff, like eating utensils (for abled people, stabilized spoons seem to be a great invention for those who need them). What do you consider an edge case that should be mechanical?
  - schiffern 3y ago
    We don't disagree. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38509700 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38509700
asdff 3y ago
Electronics have wear and tear too because at the end of the day it needs to run on some hardware. Solder joints are never built to last until the end of time, just to not lead to a lot of repair claims within the warranty period and any longer is an opportunity to cut costs for a future manager.
- AussieWog93 3y ago
  I refurbish a whole lot of ewaste as part of my job, and with a few exceptions any time a device fails it's either the electrolytics in the power supply or something mechanical. Solid state electronics technically _can_ fail but their expected service life is an order of magnitude more than the mechanical stuff. Same with properly done solder joints. If they crack, it's either due to mechanical stresses (e.g. constant reinsertion on battery jacks) or it's a design fault (Xbox 360, PS3 cold solder).
  - adhesive_wombat 3y ago
    Or a blown MOSFET that's exactly the right size to work on paper but no more (or is missing ESD protection and blew up a gate).
    - infogulch 3y ago
      Which is a flaw that could be fixed in the design for future runs and a fix documented for earlier runs.
      - adhesive_wombat 3y ago
        Excuse me, a properly sized MOSFET is nearly 5p more and a TVS diode is nearly a penny for 4. Why do you hate profits? Jokes aside, I think it's more likely that the undersized parts are the revised design, the original being "wastefully robust".
  - droopyEyelids 3y ago
    That order of magnitude longevity gap is a profit opportunity for the component manufacturers, and people are absolutely working to figure out how to make them cheaper. I dont mean this cynically, only that no one wants to spend extra on overengineered parts.

ksjskskskkk 3y ago

[flagged]

infogulch 3y ago

But if the electronic design is open then what's would be the point of forcing an electronic solution when its inferior? The hypothetical is that electronic designs are open instead of closed.

samtho 3y ago
It’s easier to fix with off-the-shelf parts (blown capacitor, damaged MOSFET, etc) than a part in which is manufactured for and by the automaker (e.g. variable valve timing component).

calamari4065 3y ago

Hm, I disagree. DRM is a very modern concept. We originally made electronic solutions to mechanical problems because electronics allows for much more complex and nuanced response to input conditions, as well as the physical advantages of size and complexity. Some systems are better as simple mechanical devices, but I'd put that number at a very, very low percentage. Take your washer, dryer, dishwasher, or oven. These things can be purely mechanical, and are generally incredibly reliable when they are mechanical. In modern times, we've computerized these things for very dubious reasons mainly down to user tracking and enforced obsolescence. But adding network connectivity can be genuinely useful. Get a notification when your laundry or dishes are done. Automatically turn off the oven if you forget to when you leave the house. Track the runtime of your dishwasher and get notified when you need to clean the filter. People would use features like that if it were possible to do so without a proprietary app that barely works, but demands your email and phone number and access to your microphone and camera. Or mandatory firmware updates that slowly degrade performance until you buy a new one. The number of problems that can be solved mechanically and for which electronics cannot provide any extra value for the user is almost certainly very close to zero.

nudgeee 3y ago
Just to add to your first point, many washers feature digital control of motors at the very low level, especially for BLDC motor types. This can reduce noise, increase efficiency and longevity of a motor. This requires electronics and software for precise timing control.
- calamari4065 3y ago
  Eh, I think that's a different thing. The line between machine and electronics is pretty blurry when you get down to it. Is an LED attached to a mechanical switch electronics? What if the switch controls a transistor that switches the light? A relay? A CPU? What if it's an incandescent bulb on a mechanical timer? The distinction isn't super clear, and a lot of electronic circuits are much less complex and more reliable than a mechanical replacement. Is that good or bad? I think the discussion here is less about "uses any electricity at all" and more "uses internet connected DRM to be actively shitty"

eternityforest 3y ago

Electronics separate form and function. The behavior can be anything we want with almost no extra cost. Plus, we can make module and reuse it in thousands of products with only code changes. Electronics lets us pack in more complexity, giving us a place to compensate for imperfections elsewhere, such as users leaving babies behind in hot cars. Plus without proprietary restrictions, nearly every vehicle and appliances in the world could probably use the same 5 modules or so for everything, making repairs rather easy.