15 ms·

Why it's OK to leave a tech job at 5 p.m.

191 points by edw519 15y ago

doktrin 15y ago
This country rapidly needs to regain its sanity when it comes to work/life balance. While some of us employed in tech may have the luxury of giving the middle finger to stigma, many employees in other sectors are not able to do so. What do you do when a 11-12 hour workday is expected upon penalty of being marginalized and eventually let go? In particular, what do you do when you don't have extremely in-demand skills, and cannot readily take the gamble on being back in the market for a new job? This is a situation many of our peers are in, and it deserves attention - if for no other reason than it 1) applies to many tech jobs already and 2) will only become more of an issue if/when the current tech job market contracts. If this unfortunate workaholic-glamorization trend continues, we are setting ourselves up for very unpleasant professional careers down the line.
- itg 15y ago
  Sometimes it's not even the employer, it's the employees who see working extra hours as a badge of honor. Everyone stays longer than they need to so if you decide you want a work-life balance, you are the odd one out and made to feel guilty.
  - j_baker 15y ago
    Yes, but the company isn't doing anything effectively to stop this culture from existing, is it? You know, sometimes I'm amazed at how groups frequently take on a life of their own. I've been in this situation before, and it's almost always more complex than meets the eye. Family therapists notice that usually the person who's acting up usually isn't the person who has a problem. They call this person the identified patient[1]. In other words, they're the ones the family has identified as being the patient. Having such a person helps create the appearance that the family doesn't have a problem. In this case, there's usually an employee or two who are "acting out" the company's problem. You see this kind of behavior more frequently when you have someone who's more manipulative than your typical office jerk running the company. They may want their employees to work around the clock, but they don't want to get their hands dirty. So they find a way to manipulate some people within the company to do the policing for them. This helps them to look like the good guy while others take the fall for doing their dirty work. It's generally a pretty ugly situation for all involved except for the person who's reaping its benefits. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identified_patient http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identified_patient
    - kamaal 15y ago
      For a long while I used to think that if I work hard I will win. And I was right. But not for long. Because working hard is just one thing. You must know what to work on. True hard work is to utilize time in hand to continually move to the next level of challenges after you are done with the current one. Once you do this you will realize that you are doing jobs that demand better productivity and quality time and not necessarily quantity of time. It becomes a totally different story if the quality and quantity goals both merge. In such a case you are really in a different situation and I would say you are on the right path. And that is the path which leads to better life and pay. That is totally different that the current BigCorp set ups. Tending to endless bug tickets, and minor feature enhancements will give you nothing on the longer run. This is where you gradually realize you are robbed of your soul and purpose in life in return for crazy hours and peanuts in pay. When people talk of crazy hours doing no benefit this is what they are talking about. Not the prior one that I mentioned. In fact I would consider my self fortunate If I find my self in one such situation.
- bearmf 15y ago
  The average work week in US is 43 hours. To be precise, it is on average 8.6 hours per day worked. Working 11-12 hours is definitely not common. Of the few people I know who do it, all do it voluntarily.
  - yummyfajitas 15y ago
    Indeed - people consistently overestimate the number of hours they work, particularly if they work more than 40. http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2011/06/art3full.pdf http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2011/06/art3full.pdf
    - jackpirate 15y ago
      That's probably because most people have ridiculous commutes. Even if you only commute 30 minutes each way, and work 8 hours a day, it certainly feels like you've worked 9 hours that day.
      - yummyfajitas 15y ago
        The average commute is 2.5 hours/week (about 30 minutes/day, both ways). http://www.bls.gov/news.release/atus.t01.htm http://www.bls.gov/news.release/atus.t01.htm (Compute "Working and work related activities" - "Working", but that's actually an overestimate, since there are more work related activities than travel.)
  - mbell 15y ago
    The overall average is a poor metric to use in this context. How many jobs do you think are out there are are expressly limited to 40 hours a week to avoid over time? Or 20 hours a week to limit having to offer health insurance? I'd be far more interested in an average for "professional" employment paid on salary, it would be far more telling.
- bunderbunder 15y ago
  What do you do when a 11-12 hour workday is expected upon penalty of being marginalized and eventually let go? You take advantage of the fact that it's all but impossible for humans to sustain their productivity while working those kinds of hours for any length of time. With all due respect to whoever said it first, furious activity is no substitute for keeping yourself in working order. Or something like that.
  - kamaal 15y ago
    You take advantage of the fact that it's all but impossible for humans to sustain their productivity while working those kinds of hours for any length of time. In current market economics those jobs will be moved to people who are ready to work for lesser pay. Like to china, what that means is now you get more people for same money. Therefore more hours.
- dclowd9901 15y ago
  I honestly don't get it. I am almost skipping to my car after my day job so I can go home and work on my personal projects. Why would anyone want to stick around later to make someone else more money?
  - ronnier 15y ago
    I get obsessed with what I'm working on and have to force myself to stop and go home. I leave work and I'm still thinking about what I've left.
  - Gats 15y ago
    Because you don't want to be the asshole that did not put enough hour, and did drive the project in a wall. Not that it was going anywhere else...
    - dclowd9901 15y ago
      If a project's success is hinging on its developers' willingness to lose valuable personal time for it, those companies better start coughing up equity.
      - lucian303 15y ago
        Or even better, they better start coughing up more $$$. As in substantially more. I think software companies should hire full time but pay by the hour. Overtime will disappear or be required rarely. Employees will be happier. Of course, bad managers, to make themselves look good will assign 1 weeks worth of work for every hour at first. Till they all lose their jobs.
  - devs1010 15y ago
    I think it depends where you are in your career. For me, there are times / projects where I find that I am pushing myself and improving my skills by working on them so I may go beyond whats expected by really delving in, optimizing code, etc to better my skills. Other times, I feel the way you do and have little connection to the work.
- MattRogish 15y ago
  "What do you do when a 11-12 hour workday is expected upon penalty of being marginalized and eventually let go?" Quit and work somewhere sane :)
  - geon 15y ago
    > In particular, what do you do when you don't have extremely in-demand skills, and cannot readily take the gamble on being back in the market for a new job?
    - MattRogish 15y ago
      Oh, I see that (Was that an edit?) In that case, you are in a world of shit. You'd the sub in the relationship and you'd either get used to it, or work your ass off after-hours to get skills and experience that make you more marketable. Nothing magic to that equation; plenty of people do it. It's hard, but better than overworking at a sweatshop
      - scarmig 15y ago
        Of course, once everyone does that, that just puts pressure on our jobs. Even for things that seem a mile away--a maid or a gas station attendant--as they move into something white collar, that puts pressure on existing lower-level white collar workers, who in turn respond by doing the same thing. For any suggestion that fixing something socially is equivalent to fixing it for an individual, you've got to ask yourself: what happens when everyone does it? Otherwise it's just a pleasant-sounding nostrum.
        MattRogish 15y ago
        Yeah, but most people don't do that. That's the whole point. It's hard. People are lazy. The reason why we get paid to do what we do is that we climbed that particular mountain. If it was easy, we'd be unemployed. :)
      - mtrichardson 15y ago
- lucian303 15y ago
  Totally. Right on the money. And the irony is that most people do work better during the day usually having 1 peak in the morning and one in the afternoon. I used to work long hours and spend hours past midnight on problems I could have solved in half an hour after rest. This is something that should stop.
- tsotha 15y ago
  Why would you work an 11-12 hour work day? If I had a job like that I would quit, even with no real marketable skills. I'd rather take ye olde 9-5 job even if it meant a substantial drop in income.
quanticle 15y ago
"But, let's forget about having family or being married for a minute. 5:30 as an on average time for going home should be acceptable for everyone -- single or not single ... family or no family -- assuming you don't come into the office everyday at 11 a.m." Frankly, though, a lot of us do come into the office at 11 a.m. (or sometimes even later), and are happy with working later hours in exchange.
- mhurron 15y ago
  At which point the article becomes more about working your 8 hour day and leaving. I doubt your happy to work until 11pm or midnight for the privilege of showing up at 11am.
  - scarmig 15y ago
    One advantage is that getting in at 11am usually means it's more difficult to bully you into staying past when you should be leaving.
- nandemo 15y ago
  Can you clarify who is "us"? Facebook employees? Or programmers working in American tech companies in general? I live in Japan. In 99% of Japanese companies, and even most of the foreign ones, there's no such thing as flexible working hours. I'm curious to know how common it is in the US.
mhurron 15y ago
Work/Life balance. It's not supposed to be a bullet point to hire people with that is forgotten the moment they start working.
WalterSear 15y ago
"Let them eat cake," she said.
- AznHisoka 15y ago
  cake is a lie
mindcrime 15y ago
What's funny - to me - is that I'm sitting here asking myself "why is this even a story?" I do not work more than 8 hours a day, when working any sort of $DAYJOB. I just don't... there's no good reason to, and I'm not going to do it. My time belongs to me (or, more appropriately, to my startup) and the opportunity cost of spending extra hours at "the office" is just way too high. Now, if I were working for someone else's startup, or working on my startup full-time, and had significant equity and working long hours had a direct correlation between my chances of becoming independently wealthy, then sure. In fact, I already work 60 or 70 (or more) hours a week, since I'm spending almost all of my night and weekend hours on Fogbeam Labs as it is. But, yeah... unless there's a compelling reason to work long days at a job that is basically "just a salary", I refuse to do it. I don't really give a shit what my coworkers, boss, or anyone else thinks about it.
- reinhardt 15y ago
  I was also curious why is this even a story. But then again I'm European.
  - rollypolly 15y ago
    I think it's tied to the industry you work in more so than geography. For example, game companies can lack work/life balance, even in Europe.
    - IsTom 15y ago
      I dunno, last time I talked to a guy at Techland he said it's 8 hours a day unless it's close to release. They have to play games for an hour too.
    - gurkendoktor 15y ago
      I think you picked the worst example. I have heard harsh warnings about going into the (German) game industry since I was a freshman. And I have heard bad things out of the most famous German game shop during their last AAA release crunchtime, so it doesn't seem to have gotten any better.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
Craiggybear 15y ago
I leave at 4.30 pm. I get in at 8.00 am, so I figure eight hours is enough -- any longer than that is pointless because I'm too tired. I have a three/four hour commute on top of this and have to be up at 5.15 am. I get back home around 6.45-7-45 pm, so, fuck it, my day is long enough. I've got a life, my own internal dialogue and other interests. Life's short enough as it is.
- DannoHung 15y ago
  Why on earth do you commute so long? Is that really the best option for you?
  - Craiggybear 15y ago
    No, lets face it, it is sub-optimal for anyone. I'll be leaving soon anyway. I couldn't keep that up indefinitely. Although, weirdly, there are those in there who do even further commutes.
  - cheddarmint 15y ago
    I had a point early in my career where I accepted a 5 hour daily commute (round trip) in order to accomplish the more important goal of finding meaningful work in my field in the region I wanted to live in. Definitely sub-optimal, locally, but things worked out for the best in the end. I _did_ gain 25 lbs or so in 10 months of doing this. Luckily, it sounds like the poster is only doing this temporarily.
- paulhauggis 15y ago
  So you have 5-6 hours of commute time? This is insane. I had 2 hours of commute time and it drove me nuts.
  - Craiggybear 15y ago
    It is absolutely batshit fucking crazy. And I don't even like the work. Partly my own fault because I chose several years ago to live in quite a rural area. Still, not worth the hassle.
paulhauggis 15y ago
This is why it's important to have a secondary source of income (most likely a business) and money in the bank. If I'm required to work past 5 for too long (once in awhile, it's fine), I find work elsewhere. It's worked pretty well so far.
- bmj 15y ago
  Yeah, the balance aspect is pretty key on both sides. I generally put in 7-8 hours in the office, plus perhaps an hour or so in the morning before the rest of my family is awake (though I may not always work this hour). I've been with the same employer for over five years, and there have been times that I've been asked to work a bit extra (though, typically, I've been able to leave at 5, and work later in the evening, after the kids are in bed). And, of course, there have been times I've been given a great deal of flexibility in my work schedule to accommodate emergencies. Of course, this isn't typical, perhaps even in tech, and I feel rather fortunate to have this situation.
timsally 15y ago
For an orthogonal perspective, see grellas (writing on another article): Work-life balance is very important as well, a point the author emphasizes. He seems to have made that choice later in life (as did I) and I commend him for it. But, while I can exhort others too to strive for such balance, I will not begrudge them the choice to work exceedingly hard (especially as they are first developing in their careers) to achieve other "unbalanced" goals. People do accomplish insanely great things by working insanely hard. If they choose to do this in their work as employees, that is their privilege and, as long as they are highly-skilled and highly compensated, I say more power to them if they do it without the benefit of protective labor laws. Complete comment: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3642433 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3642433.
- pyre 15y ago
  I think that this is the operative statement: as long as they are highly-skilled and highly compensated
stuff4ben 15y ago
I've worked those longer hours on one startup, 10-11 hour days for several weeks putting out fires. Never once did I get paid more or even a congrats for the work. It was expected and quite frankly, I enjoyed it as a new hire. It helped me get up to speed, built up some comradeship with the other devs/mgrs there, and I had nothing better to do at home. But as the fires died down and I became well-known for my work ethic, WHEN IT WAS NEEDED, I pulled back to 8 hour days on average. So as in many things in life, it's ok in moderation to work longer hours, but I try not to make a habit of it. Nowadays, I'm at a large enterprisey business and I may work 7 hours during off times. But there was a point (oddly enough right when I started) where I was putting in 10 hour days for a couple weeks. Now that I have kids, I really do want to get home before they go to bed. Also helps that I have a 7 minute commute.
abyssknight 15y ago
I do this, and occasionally I catch flak for it. I put in 8 hours, and that 8 hours happens to be fantastic -- regardless of how busy I look, what I work on, or who I work with. The problem is that casual observers don't see that. They only see the present. Thankfully, my efforts were noticed despite my lack of unpaid overtime. I've been promoted twice in the past three years, added to special panels and events, and even been given assignments that just rock. There is this stigma around working 40 hours a week, and only 40 hours, that I will never understand. If you don't need more 40 (or even less) to do your job, what does it matter? The employer is getting what they asked for, and often times more, and you're getting a paycheck. Its called ROWE: results oriented work environment. Just a shame it hasn't caught on in the US.
- roc 15y ago
  > "They only see the present." That's a symptom of bad management. If they assume presence == productivity, it will be just one of many flawed assumptions and bad practices that will result in a pretty lousy workplace for knowledge workers.
richieb 15y ago
You need to watch this: http://thewebivore.com/go-the-fuck-home-my-ignite-talk http://thewebivore.com/go-the-fuck-home-my-ignite-talk
taf2 15y ago
i used to be the one who would ask, "where is everyone we're a startup and it's only 7:30pm?" I used to freak out if I saw a line of code that was stupidly duplicated or just plain wrong. It's been 3 startups, and 2 kids later that I realize just how wrong I was... so far no great success - but moderate success, many lessons learned and certainly people i've pushed away for truly silly reasons like perceived hours spent behind the desk or strange lines of code written... reality is I now spend fewer hours behind the desk although admittedly probably still far too many to be sane... and definitely used to (and still do) write crazy lines of code... I think it's a matter of perspective, age, prospects and who knows probably other factors that'll influence our feelings about how many hours we need to put in... after all, is it one critical bug fixed or 100s of lines of new code written which matters more - is a mater of perspective, that one bug fixed could make the difference between winning the big client or losing'em... I think "hours spent behind the desk" is a silly measure of ones productivity... a well rested mind after all makes far better decisions - that's not to say we should be lazy, but that we need balance - plan and simple.
- spoiledtechie 15y ago
  I love this. You are so right. Im glad you came to your senses as well.
- bryanl 15y ago
  How far you've come. I'm proud to see you write this.
  - taf2 15y ago
    haha, i'm still freakin crazy dude!
jack-r-abbit 15y ago
My commute is no less than 1hr, so if I'm to be home for dinner with my family I need to leave at 5 (5:30 tops). My boss is very understanding of that... in the sense that he agreed to let me come in at 7am so I could leave at 5. Did I mention my 1hr commute? You do the math. I'm gone 12hrs a day. And I still feel like I need to sneak out as everyone else is likely to be there until 6 or 7. I hate that this seems "normal" and that I feel guilty for leaving at 5. I do enjoy the couple hours of quiet time in the morning though.
dkrich 15y ago
Completely unrelated, but why do stories having anything to do with Pete Cashmore always include a photo of him looking seductively into the camera? This one seems to be in some cool night club. As if knowing that the author happens to be a rare attractive tech reporter adds some credibility to his stories. I do agree with the tenets of the story though. Working until 5pm should be plenty long to call it a productive day if you don't spend your time yanking off at the water cooler or gossiping with coworkers or even worse sitting in pointless meetings. I felt so adamantly about this at one point that I wrote a series of op-eds to the New York Times trying to make the case that the single greatest way to alleviate our dependence on foreign oil, lower pollution, mitigate the need for mass-transit, and increase productivity was to give tax incentives to employers who allow employees to work from home 1-2 days per week. Seems surprising to me that more focus hasn't been put on this recently. Anyhow, the stories were never run and now I'm really off topic.
Tycho 15y ago
Did no one read the part of her interview where she said she started work (sending emails so people would notice) at 5.30 am? And then would send emails from home at like 9pm? Ie. she was working way more than 12 hours a day, she just happened to leave the office at 5.30 when other bosses might be scheduling meetings. The 'story' is completely not what it's being made out to be.
MattRogish 15y ago
I believe strongly in a sustainable pace. Software development isn't like brick-laying - you can't work more hours, past the breaking point, and expect to get marginal returns. Sure, you'll get some sloppiness and "bugs" in bricklaying, but likely nothing that can fundamentally ruin the project. Software developers working too much lead to negative returns as they add more bugs than they fix (or add features). And sleep-deprived coding has lead to more architectural "bite us in the ass" problems than any slightly faster feature output. That's why I have a cap at ~40 hrs/week. Don't work any more or I'll get mad. And I believe in the "Results Only Work Environment" (http://www.gorowe.com http://www.gorowe.com) - there is no clock; folks "working late" or "coming in early" have nowhere to hide. Only the people working at a sustainable pace and consistently delivering high-quality, working software are rewarded. And we're hiring: http://fundinggates.com/jobs http://fundinggates.com/jobs
- lucian303 15y ago
  Nicely put. Results matter, not hours. Most people have still not grasped this. And coding late, or even into the next day is kinda like driving without sleep: dangerous, illegal (in many states), and likely to lead to the shittiest code one ever writes.
- lwat 15y ago
  I know companies that throw everyone out of the office at 6pm sharp. No working from home allowed either. They seem to be doing just fine. Sometimes you have to force people to work reasonable hours or they'll just burn themselves out in a year or two.
- radikalus 15y ago
  I strongly advocate pace as well; I don't think it's THAT dependent however on hours/week. I prefer working longer hours when my pace is high and working less when I'm feeling not very effective.
- adrianhoward 15y ago
  you can't work more hours, past the breaking point, and expect to get marginal returns I find it a little depressing how difficult it can be to convince folk of this though - both employers and employees. Once team I was brought in to help was working silly hours, and I could very quickly see that it was having a terribly effect on productivity. You could just look at the stories that were being worked on at 9pm on a Friday night and guarantee that you'd be seeing them again the next week with a bug report attached. I managed to persuade everybody to start working more sensible hours. We collected stone cold facts from the history of the number of bug reports and complaints + stories done that this was more productive on every scale. And yet..... push back from management (who were very invested in the "startup's work 60 hours a week" mindset) and some of the developers (who had become locked into "hero developer" mode). Even ignoring the ethical argument (not saying that you should) it's just more productive to work that way.
mikezupan 15y ago
I leave at 4pm.. but I get in at 7am. Generally I get a good 3-4 hours of quiet work done before everyone else shows up.
ken 15y ago
I'm kind of suspicious whenever I hear the phrase "work/life balance". It strikes me as something that seeks to reinforce the industrial-revolution-era idea that my (week)days should be broken into thirds: working (not fun but pays bills), playing (fun but costs money), and sleeping. Sure, that's definitely better than working 12 hour days, but is that really the goal? It seems that most of the fun-loving and happy people I know, regardless of their financial situation, don't operate in such a world. A good friend and startup founder (who you might think would tend towards free-market/libertarianism, since he works very hard and surely wants to be compensated for it) asks me: we can feed and clothe and house everyone, so why don't we? Why isn't work optional? People who work hard to make a dent in the universe will anyway, and people who just mess around don't really get much done at work anyway, so why keep up the charade? How many great ideas (or works of art) are stuck in somebody's brain simply because they don't know how to make that idea pay the rent? I'm a programmer -- or at least, of all the things I've done in my life, that's the one I've been paid the most money for. But personally, I hate that it's always indoors and sedentary. It's unfortunate that society places so much value on an activity that is arguably bad for my physical and mental health. So why are virtually all programming jobs (ostensibly) full-time, i.e., 40 hours? A programmer's salary is great, but why can't I work 20 hours as a programmer, and 20 hours as a tree-planter, or teaching rock climbing to high school kids, for maybe 55% of a programmer's salary? Out of all the possible ways of dividing up my time, spending all daylight hours indoors writing code is perhaps the worst I can imagine. I know I don't have all the answers, but I think that after a decade of work, I'm starting to know what questions to ask. If I find myself asking about "work/life balance", I've already lost, because it means I'm admitting that the "work" is something I know I won't love doing. Certainly some people have no problem breaking their day up like this, but I can't, and I suspect I'm not alone.
- Arelius 15y ago
  The problem is that there does still exist a whole lot of jobs that require people to do them that are not easy to motivate people to do. Some of these jobs are required so that we can house, clothe, and feed them. If nobody actually had to work, would we really have enough people building homes, farming food, and making, and distributing food such that we could continue to feed, clothe and house everbody? I don't know what the answer is, but you must admit that there is a serious possibility that the answer is No. I agree everybody should have the right to food, clothes, and shelter, but I'm not sure that the approach of giving it to everybody for free will actually be sustainable, at least not without some additional thought into the infrastructure.
Limes102 15y ago
When I was working for a company, I would get it an 8:15 and left at 17:00 on the dot. When asked if I could stay to do something which I felt could wait until the morning, I would say no and leave. I didn't get fired, instead I had a life. Working is not everything, there are much more important things in life.
jaysignorello 15y ago
It might be OK in the company policy, but where it counts is co-worker and manager opinion. I personally have found that coming into work at 7am and working til 4pm just doesn't fly with other co-workers. They get the opinion that I didn't have to work as much as everyone else. Productivity can be hard to judge, so it's easy to revert back to time in the office. I believe there was a study at Google that had similar results as what I experienced as well.
rs98101 15y ago
Been a software engineer for 15 years now. I've always worked 40 hour weeks, about once a year I work a 60 hour week. I've probably made more money than my peers on average, plus I've had a life outside of work. I've always been baffled why employees put up with 50+ hour work weeks.
ruswick 15y ago
I think everyone is complaining a bit too much. I'm trying to find an internship, (read "begging companies to let me work over 40 hours a week for them free of charge.") and have had absolutely no luck. You're making a living, right? So what's a few extra hours per day?
- groby_b 15y ago
  That's time I don't spend seeing my partner. That's time my health deteriorates because working excessive hours is unhealthy. That's time I slowly lose friends because I never see them. There's no point in making a living without having a life.
  - ruswick 15y ago
    Well, that ultimately comes down to preference. I would rather have a job than extra time to spend in my personal life.
    - acuozzo 15y ago
      > I would rather have a job than extra time to spend in my personal life. I've never interacted with an old and dying man or woman whom would've said anything similar.
    - jwingy 15y ago
      Unless you exhibit traits of aspergers such as often having an obsessive singular focus, this isn't about preference, it's a fact of the human condition. You will burn out and you won't be productive.
    - pullo 15y ago
      I understand your statements as coming from someone who is looking for an opportunity and frustrated now. Wait until you get a job( which you will) and 'settle'. If you are already employed or , looking for fulfillment outside your 'day job', this thread might be more relatable to you.
    - groby_b 15y ago
lss456 15y ago
I used to work at a developer job where it was taboo to leave before 5:30 (even if you came in at 8:30). Management often scheduled meetings (that lasted at least an hour, sometimes more) at 5:30 on a Friday. If you wanted a personal life there, you had to fight for it. And I did - I left the job :)
RobertKohr 15y ago
One of the joys of being a contractor is the complete lack of shame at leaving at 5pm, and being happy when asked to work later (aka get more money). As a salaried worker I was easily pulled into working late hours as it was the status quo. In essence when you are salaried, you are owned, and will be frequently asked to work late, work weekends, and work from home at night. As a contractor, you will still get asked, but only when the reward for the company is worth the cost. As a salaried worker, the only cost for the extra time is your happiness, which isn't worth as much to them as you think. The best jobs are ones where there is no expectation of hours though. This is where you have a significant stake in the outcome, such as an early employee or as an independent project. Where you are no longer getting paid for your time, but only for results.
alan_cx 15y ago
I sell my skills for money. It is all I have, my skilled time. I exchange that time for money. If my pay ends at 5.30, so does my time. No employer has ever given me free money, so Im not about to give them my time for free. The day the free cash is handed out is the day I dish out some free time.
- platform 15y ago
  there are bonuses and promotions. Or another words 'discretionary' compensation. Your formula above does not work in unless you work for a 0 discretionary compensation place. Promotion paths are also important -- a position or title that is externally recognized as 'achievement'. Is akin to a 'vetting/classification' that was done for your talents. VCs look at that as well as anybody else. So to summarise,discretionary compensation and promosition creates competitive environment. That drives the stress, long hours,and success or failure within a corporate career path.
JohnnyFlash 15y ago
I work till 5pm. Have done for about 2 years now. Whats happened? 1) I haven't burned out 2) I have retained good relationships with my family and friends 3) I enjoy evenings out Previously I worked all hours. If my partner had let me I would have brought the computer to bed and typed into the night. I burned out and jeopardised my relationship. I get that there are times when you need to work longer. When you have a deadline or something really needs to be done. However.. if this is every day for a long period of time then you are probably doing something wrong.
Garbage 15y ago
I hear people repeatedly saying "work-life balance". Work and Life are not different things. Everything is life. If you don't have life, you can't work. It's as simple as that.

191 points by edw519 15y ago

This country rapidly needs to regain its sanity when it comes to work/life balance. While some of us employed in tech may have the luxury of giving the middle finger to stigma, many employees in other sectors are not able to do so. What do you do when a 11-12 hour workday is expected upon penalty of being marginalized and eventually let go? In particular, what do you do when you don't have extremely in-demand skills, and cannot readily take the gamble on being back in the market for a new job? This is a situation many of our peers are in, and it deserves attention - if for no other reason than it 1) applies to many tech jobs already and 2) will only become more of an issue if/when the current tech job market contracts. If this unfortunate workaholic-glamorization trend continues, we are setting ourselves up for very unpleasant professional careers down the line.

itg 15y ago
Sometimes it's not even the employer, it's the employees who see working extra hours as a badge of honor. Everyone stays longer than they need to so if you decide you want a work-life balance, you are the odd one out and made to feel guilty.
- j_baker 15y ago
  Yes, but the company isn't doing anything effectively to stop this culture from existing, is it? You know, sometimes I'm amazed at how groups frequently take on a life of their own. I've been in this situation before, and it's almost always more complex than meets the eye. Family therapists notice that usually the person who's acting up usually isn't the person who has a problem. They call this person the identified patient[1]. In other words, they're the ones the family has identified as being the patient. Having such a person helps create the appearance that the family doesn't have a problem. In this case, there's usually an employee or two who are "acting out" the company's problem. You see this kind of behavior more frequently when you have someone who's more manipulative than your typical office jerk running the company. They may want their employees to work around the clock, but they don't want to get their hands dirty. So they find a way to manipulate some people within the company to do the policing for them. This helps them to look like the good guy while others take the fall for doing their dirty work. It's generally a pretty ugly situation for all involved except for the person who's reaping its benefits. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identified_patient http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identified_patient
  - kamaal 15y ago
    For a long while I used to think that if I work hard I will win. And I was right. But not for long. Because working hard is just one thing. You must know what to work on. True hard work is to utilize time in hand to continually move to the next level of challenges after you are done with the current one. Once you do this you will realize that you are doing jobs that demand better productivity and quality time and not necessarily quantity of time. It becomes a totally different story if the quality and quantity goals both merge. In such a case you are really in a different situation and I would say you are on the right path. And that is the path which leads to better life and pay. That is totally different that the current BigCorp set ups. Tending to endless bug tickets, and minor feature enhancements will give you nothing on the longer run. This is where you gradually realize you are robbed of your soul and purpose in life in return for crazy hours and peanuts in pay. When people talk of crazy hours doing no benefit this is what they are talking about. Not the prior one that I mentioned. In fact I would consider my self fortunate If I find my self in one such situation.
bearmf 15y ago
The average work week in US is 43 hours. To be precise, it is on average 8.6 hours per day worked. Working 11-12 hours is definitely not common. Of the few people I know who do it, all do it voluntarily.
- yummyfajitas 15y ago
  Indeed - people consistently overestimate the number of hours they work, particularly if they work more than 40. http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2011/06/art3full.pdf http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2011/06/art3full.pdf
  - jackpirate 15y ago
    That's probably because most people have ridiculous commutes. Even if you only commute 30 minutes each way, and work 8 hours a day, it certainly feels like you've worked 9 hours that day.
    - yummyfajitas 15y ago
      The average commute is 2.5 hours/week (about 30 minutes/day, both ways). http://www.bls.gov/news.release/atus.t01.htm http://www.bls.gov/news.release/atus.t01.htm (Compute "Working and work related activities" - "Working", but that's actually an overestimate, since there are more work related activities than travel.)
- mbell 15y ago
  The overall average is a poor metric to use in this context. How many jobs do you think are out there are are expressly limited to 40 hours a week to avoid over time? Or 20 hours a week to limit having to offer health insurance? I'd be far more interested in an average for "professional" employment paid on salary, it would be far more telling.
bunderbunder 15y ago
What do you do when a 11-12 hour workday is expected upon penalty of being marginalized and eventually let go? You take advantage of the fact that it's all but impossible for humans to sustain their productivity while working those kinds of hours for any length of time. With all due respect to whoever said it first, furious activity is no substitute for keeping yourself in working order. Or something like that.
- kamaal 15y ago
  You take advantage of the fact that it's all but impossible for humans to sustain their productivity while working those kinds of hours for any length of time. In current market economics those jobs will be moved to people who are ready to work for lesser pay. Like to china, what that means is now you get more people for same money. Therefore more hours.
dclowd9901 15y ago
I honestly don't get it. I am almost skipping to my car after my day job so I can go home and work on my personal projects. Why would anyone want to stick around later to make someone else more money?
- ronnier 15y ago
  I get obsessed with what I'm working on and have to force myself to stop and go home. I leave work and I'm still thinking about what I've left.
- Gats 15y ago
  Because you don't want to be the asshole that did not put enough hour, and did drive the project in a wall. Not that it was going anywhere else...
  - dclowd9901 15y ago
    If a project's success is hinging on its developers' willingness to lose valuable personal time for it, those companies better start coughing up equity.
    - lucian303 15y ago
      Or even better, they better start coughing up more $$$. As in substantially more. I think software companies should hire full time but pay by the hour. Overtime will disappear or be required rarely. Employees will be happier. Of course, bad managers, to make themselves look good will assign 1 weeks worth of work for every hour at first. Till they all lose their jobs.
- devs1010 15y ago
  I think it depends where you are in your career. For me, there are times / projects where I find that I am pushing myself and improving my skills by working on them so I may go beyond whats expected by really delving in, optimizing code, etc to better my skills. Other times, I feel the way you do and have little connection to the work.
MattRogish 15y ago
"What do you do when a 11-12 hour workday is expected upon penalty of being marginalized and eventually let go?" Quit and work somewhere sane :)
- geon 15y ago
  > In particular, what do you do when you don't have extremely in-demand skills, and cannot readily take the gamble on being back in the market for a new job?
  - MattRogish 15y ago
    Oh, I see that (Was that an edit?) In that case, you are in a world of shit. You'd the sub in the relationship and you'd either get used to it, or work your ass off after-hours to get skills and experience that make you more marketable. Nothing magic to that equation; plenty of people do it. It's hard, but better than overworking at a sweatshop
    - scarmig 15y ago
      Of course, once everyone does that, that just puts pressure on our jobs. Even for things that seem a mile away--a maid or a gas station attendant--as they move into something white collar, that puts pressure on existing lower-level white collar workers, who in turn respond by doing the same thing. For any suggestion that fixing something socially is equivalent to fixing it for an individual, you've got to ask yourself: what happens when everyone does it? Otherwise it's just a pleasant-sounding nostrum.
      - MattRogish 15y ago
        Yeah, but most people don't do that. That's the whole point. It's hard. People are lazy. The reason why we get paid to do what we do is that we climbed that particular mountain. If it was easy, we'd be unemployed. :)
    - mtrichardson 15y ago
lucian303 15y ago
Totally. Right on the money. And the irony is that most people do work better during the day usually having 1 peak in the morning and one in the afternoon. I used to work long hours and spend hours past midnight on problems I could have solved in half an hour after rest. This is something that should stop.
tsotha 15y ago
Why would you work an 11-12 hour work day? If I had a job like that I would quit, even with no real marketable skills. I'd rather take ye olde 9-5 job even if it meant a substantial drop in income.

quanticle 15y ago

"But, let's forget about having family or being married for a minute. 5:30 as an on average time for going home should be acceptable for everyone -- single or not single ... family or no family -- assuming you don't come into the office everyday at 11 a.m." Frankly, though, a lot of us do come into the office at 11 a.m. (or sometimes even later), and are happy with working later hours in exchange.

mhurron 15y ago
At which point the article becomes more about working your 8 hour day and leaving. I doubt your happy to work until 11pm or midnight for the privilege of showing up at 11am.
- scarmig 15y ago
  One advantage is that getting in at 11am usually means it's more difficult to bully you into staying past when you should be leaving.
nandemo 15y ago
Can you clarify who is "us"? Facebook employees? Or programmers working in American tech companies in general? I live in Japan. In 99% of Japanese companies, and even most of the foreign ones, there's no such thing as flexible working hours. I'm curious to know how common it is in the US.

mhurron 15y ago

Work/Life balance. It's not supposed to be a bullet point to hire people with that is forgotten the moment they start working.

WalterSear 15y ago

"Let them eat cake," she said.

AznHisoka 15y ago
cake is a lie

mindcrime 15y ago

What's funny - to me - is that I'm sitting here asking myself "why is this even a story?" I do not work more than 8 hours a day, when working any sort of $DAYJOB. I just don't... there's no good reason to, and I'm not going to do it. My time belongs to me (or, more appropriately, to my startup) and the opportunity cost of spending extra hours at "the office" is just way too high. Now, if I were working for someone else's startup, or working on my startup full-time, and had significant equity and working long hours had a direct correlation between my chances of becoming independently wealthy, then sure. In fact, I already work 60 or 70 (or more) hours a week, since I'm spending almost all of my night and weekend hours on Fogbeam Labs as it is. But, yeah... unless there's a compelling reason to work long days at a job that is basically "just a salary", I refuse to do it. I don't really give a shit what my coworkers, boss, or anyone else thinks about it.

reinhardt 15y ago
I was also curious why is this even a story. But then again I'm European.
- rollypolly 15y ago
  I think it's tied to the industry you work in more so than geography. For example, game companies can lack work/life balance, even in Europe.
  - IsTom 15y ago
    I dunno, last time I talked to a guy at Techland he said it's 8 hours a day unless it's close to release. They have to play games for an hour too.
  - gurkendoktor 15y ago
    I think you picked the worst example. I have heard harsh warnings about going into the (German) game industry since I was a freshman. And I have heard bad things out of the most famous German game shop during their last AAA release crunchtime, so it doesn't seem to have gotten any better.

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

Craiggybear 15y ago

I leave at 4.30 pm. I get in at 8.00 am, so I figure eight hours is enough -- any longer than that is pointless because I'm too tired. I have a three/four hour commute on top of this and have to be up at 5.15 am. I get back home around 6.45-7-45 pm, so, fuck it, my day is long enough. I've got a life, my own internal dialogue and other interests. Life's short enough as it is.

DannoHung 15y ago
Why on earth do you commute so long? Is that really the best option for you?
- Craiggybear 15y ago
  No, lets face it, it is sub-optimal for anyone. I'll be leaving soon anyway. I couldn't keep that up indefinitely. Although, weirdly, there are those in there who do even further commutes.
- cheddarmint 15y ago
  I had a point early in my career where I accepted a 5 hour daily commute (round trip) in order to accomplish the more important goal of finding meaningful work in my field in the region I wanted to live in. Definitely sub-optimal, locally, but things worked out for the best in the end. I _did_ gain 25 lbs or so in 10 months of doing this. Luckily, it sounds like the poster is only doing this temporarily.
paulhauggis 15y ago
So you have 5-6 hours of commute time? This is insane. I had 2 hours of commute time and it drove me nuts.
- Craiggybear 15y ago
  It is absolutely batshit fucking crazy. And I don't even like the work. Partly my own fault because I chose several years ago to live in quite a rural area. Still, not worth the hassle.

paulhauggis 15y ago

This is why it's important to have a secondary source of income (most likely a business) and money in the bank. If I'm required to work past 5 for too long (once in awhile, it's fine), I find work elsewhere. It's worked pretty well so far.

bmj 15y ago
Yeah, the balance aspect is pretty key on both sides. I generally put in 7-8 hours in the office, plus perhaps an hour or so in the morning before the rest of my family is awake (though I may not always work this hour). I've been with the same employer for over five years, and there have been times that I've been asked to work a bit extra (though, typically, I've been able to leave at 5, and work later in the evening, after the kids are in bed). And, of course, there have been times I've been given a great deal of flexibility in my work schedule to accommodate emergencies. Of course, this isn't typical, perhaps even in tech, and I feel rather fortunate to have this situation.

timsally 15y ago

For an orthogonal perspective, see grellas (writing on another article): Work-life balance is very important as well, a point the author emphasizes. He seems to have made that choice later in life (as did I) and I commend him for it. But, while I can exhort others too to strive for such balance, I will not begrudge them the choice to work exceedingly hard (especially as they are first developing in their careers) to achieve other "unbalanced" goals. People do accomplish insanely great things by working insanely hard. If they choose to do this in their work as employees, that is their privilege and, as long as they are highly-skilled and highly compensated, I say more power to them if they do it without the benefit of protective labor laws. Complete comment: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3642433 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3642433.

pyre 15y ago
I think that this is the operative statement: as long as they are highly-skilled and highly compensated

stuff4ben 15y ago

I've worked those longer hours on one startup, 10-11 hour days for several weeks putting out fires. Never once did I get paid more or even a congrats for the work. It was expected and quite frankly, I enjoyed it as a new hire. It helped me get up to speed, built up some comradeship with the other devs/mgrs there, and I had nothing better to do at home. But as the fires died down and I became well-known for my work ethic, WHEN IT WAS NEEDED, I pulled back to 8 hour days on average. So as in many things in life, it's ok in moderation to work longer hours, but I try not to make a habit of it. Nowadays, I'm at a large enterprisey business and I may work 7 hours during off times. But there was a point (oddly enough right when I started) where I was putting in 10 hour days for a couple weeks. Now that I have kids, I really do want to get home before they go to bed. Also helps that I have a 7 minute commute.

abyssknight 15y ago

I do this, and occasionally I catch flak for it. I put in 8 hours, and that 8 hours happens to be fantastic -- regardless of how busy I look, what I work on, or who I work with. The problem is that casual observers don't see that. They only see the present. Thankfully, my efforts were noticed despite my lack of unpaid overtime. I've been promoted twice in the past three years, added to special panels and events, and even been given assignments that just rock. There is this stigma around working 40 hours a week, and only 40 hours, that I will never understand. If you don't need more 40 (or even less) to do your job, what does it matter? The employer is getting what they asked for, and often times more, and you're getting a paycheck. Its called ROWE: results oriented work environment. Just a shame it hasn't caught on in the US.

roc 15y ago
> "They only see the present." That's a symptom of bad management. If they assume presence == productivity, it will be just one of many flawed assumptions and bad practices that will result in a pretty lousy workplace for knowledge workers.

richieb 15y ago

You need to watch this: http://thewebivore.com/go-the-fuck-home-my-ignite-talk http://thewebivore.com/go-the-fuck-home-my-ignite-talk

taf2 15y ago

i used to be the one who would ask, "where is everyone we're a startup and it's only 7:30pm?" I used to freak out if I saw a line of code that was stupidly duplicated or just plain wrong. It's been 3 startups, and 2 kids later that I realize just how wrong I was... so far no great success - but moderate success, many lessons learned and certainly people i've pushed away for truly silly reasons like perceived hours spent behind the desk or strange lines of code written... reality is I now spend fewer hours behind the desk although admittedly probably still far too many to be sane... and definitely used to (and still do) write crazy lines of code... I think it's a matter of perspective, age, prospects and who knows probably other factors that'll influence our feelings about how many hours we need to put in... after all, is it one critical bug fixed or 100s of lines of new code written which matters more - is a mater of perspective, that one bug fixed could make the difference between winning the big client or losing'em... I think "hours spent behind the desk" is a silly measure of ones productivity... a well rested mind after all makes far better decisions - that's not to say we should be lazy, but that we need balance - plan and simple.

spoiledtechie 15y ago
I love this. You are so right. Im glad you came to your senses as well.
bryanl 15y ago
How far you've come. I'm proud to see you write this.
- taf2 15y ago
  haha, i'm still freakin crazy dude!

jack-r-abbit 15y ago

My commute is no less than 1hr, so if I'm to be home for dinner with my family I need to leave at 5 (5:30 tops). My boss is very understanding of that... in the sense that he agreed to let me come in at 7am so I could leave at 5. Did I mention my 1hr commute? You do the math. I'm gone 12hrs a day. And I still feel like I need to sneak out as everyone else is likely to be there until 6 or 7. I hate that this seems "normal" and that I feel guilty for leaving at 5. I do enjoy the couple hours of quiet time in the morning though.

dkrich 15y ago

Completely unrelated, but why do stories having anything to do with Pete Cashmore always include a photo of him looking seductively into the camera? This one seems to be in some cool night club. As if knowing that the author happens to be a rare attractive tech reporter adds some credibility to his stories. I do agree with the tenets of the story though. Working until 5pm should be plenty long to call it a productive day if you don't spend your time yanking off at the water cooler or gossiping with coworkers or even worse sitting in pointless meetings. I felt so adamantly about this at one point that I wrote a series of op-eds to the New York Times trying to make the case that the single greatest way to alleviate our dependence on foreign oil, lower pollution, mitigate the need for mass-transit, and increase productivity was to give tax incentives to employers who allow employees to work from home 1-2 days per week. Seems surprising to me that more focus hasn't been put on this recently. Anyhow, the stories were never run and now I'm really off topic.

Tycho 15y ago

Did no one read the part of her interview where she said she started work (sending emails so people would notice) at 5.30 am? And then would send emails from home at like 9pm? Ie. she was working way more than 12 hours a day, she just happened to leave the office at 5.30 when other bosses might be scheduling meetings. The 'story' is completely not what it's being made out to be.

MattRogish 15y ago

I believe strongly in a sustainable pace. Software development isn't like brick-laying - you can't work more hours, past the breaking point, and expect to get marginal returns. Sure, you'll get some sloppiness and "bugs" in bricklaying, but likely nothing that can fundamentally ruin the project. Software developers working too much lead to negative returns as they add more bugs than they fix (or add features). And sleep-deprived coding has lead to more architectural "bite us in the ass" problems than any slightly faster feature output. That's why I have a cap at ~40 hrs/week. Don't work any more or I'll get mad. And I believe in the "Results Only Work Environment" (http://www.gorowe.com http://www.gorowe.com) - there is no clock; folks "working late" or "coming in early" have nowhere to hide. Only the people working at a sustainable pace and consistently delivering high-quality, working software are rewarded. And we're hiring: http://fundinggates.com/jobs http://fundinggates.com/jobs

lucian303 15y ago
Nicely put. Results matter, not hours. Most people have still not grasped this. And coding late, or even into the next day is kinda like driving without sleep: dangerous, illegal (in many states), and likely to lead to the shittiest code one ever writes.
lwat 15y ago
I know companies that throw everyone out of the office at 6pm sharp. No working from home allowed either. They seem to be doing just fine. Sometimes you have to force people to work reasonable hours or they'll just burn themselves out in a year or two.
radikalus 15y ago
I strongly advocate pace as well; I don't think it's THAT dependent however on hours/week. I prefer working longer hours when my pace is high and working less when I'm feeling not very effective.
adrianhoward 15y ago
you can't work more hours, past the breaking point, and expect to get marginal returns I find it a little depressing how difficult it can be to convince folk of this though - both employers and employees. Once team I was brought in to help was working silly hours, and I could very quickly see that it was having a terribly effect on productivity. You could just look at the stories that were being worked on at 9pm on a Friday night and guarantee that you'd be seeing them again the next week with a bug report attached. I managed to persuade everybody to start working more sensible hours. We collected stone cold facts from the history of the number of bug reports and complaints + stories done that this was more productive on every scale. And yet..... push back from management (who were very invested in the "startup's work 60 hours a week" mindset) and some of the developers (who had become locked into "hero developer" mode). Even ignoring the ethical argument (not saying that you should) it's just more productive to work that way.

mikezupan 15y ago

I leave at 4pm.. but I get in at 7am. Generally I get a good 3-4 hours of quiet work done before everyone else shows up.

ken 15y ago

I'm kind of suspicious whenever I hear the phrase "work/life balance". It strikes me as something that seeks to reinforce the industrial-revolution-era idea that my (week)days should be broken into thirds: working (not fun but pays bills), playing (fun but costs money), and sleeping. Sure, that's definitely better than working 12 hour days, but is that really the goal? It seems that most of the fun-loving and happy people I know, regardless of their financial situation, don't operate in such a world. A good friend and startup founder (who you might think would tend towards free-market/libertarianism, since he works very hard and surely wants to be compensated for it) asks me: we can feed and clothe and house everyone, so why don't we? Why isn't work optional? People who work hard to make a dent in the universe will anyway, and people who just mess around don't really get much done at work anyway, so why keep up the charade? How many great ideas (or works of art) are stuck in somebody's brain simply because they don't know how to make that idea pay the rent? I'm a programmer -- or at least, of all the things I've done in my life, that's the one I've been paid the most money for. But personally, I hate that it's always indoors and sedentary. It's unfortunate that society places so much value on an activity that is arguably bad for my physical and mental health. So why are virtually all programming jobs (ostensibly) full-time, i.e., 40 hours? A programmer's salary is great, but why can't I work 20 hours as a programmer, and 20 hours as a tree-planter, or teaching rock climbing to high school kids, for maybe 55% of a programmer's salary? Out of all the possible ways of dividing up my time, spending all daylight hours indoors writing code is perhaps the worst I can imagine. I know I don't have all the answers, but I think that after a decade of work, I'm starting to know what questions to ask. If I find myself asking about "work/life balance", I've already lost, because it means I'm admitting that the "work" is something I know I won't love doing. Certainly some people have no problem breaking their day up like this, but I can't, and I suspect I'm not alone.

Arelius 15y ago
The problem is that there does still exist a whole lot of jobs that require people to do them that are not easy to motivate people to do. Some of these jobs are required so that we can house, clothe, and feed them. If nobody actually had to work, would we really have enough people building homes, farming food, and making, and distributing food such that we could continue to feed, clothe and house everbody? I don't know what the answer is, but you must admit that there is a serious possibility that the answer is No. I agree everybody should have the right to food, clothes, and shelter, but I'm not sure that the approach of giving it to everybody for free will actually be sustainable, at least not without some additional thought into the infrastructure.

Limes102 15y ago

When I was working for a company, I would get it an 8:15 and left at 17:00 on the dot. When asked if I could stay to do something which I felt could wait until the morning, I would say no and leave. I didn't get fired, instead I had a life. Working is not everything, there are much more important things in life.

jaysignorello 15y ago

It might be OK in the company policy, but where it counts is co-worker and manager opinion. I personally have found that coming into work at 7am and working til 4pm just doesn't fly with other co-workers. They get the opinion that I didn't have to work as much as everyone else. Productivity can be hard to judge, so it's easy to revert back to time in the office. I believe there was a study at Google that had similar results as what I experienced as well.

rs98101 15y ago

Been a software engineer for 15 years now. I've always worked 40 hour weeks, about once a year I work a 60 hour week. I've probably made more money than my peers on average, plus I've had a life outside of work. I've always been baffled why employees put up with 50+ hour work weeks.

ruswick 15y ago

I think everyone is complaining a bit too much. I'm trying to find an internship, (read "begging companies to let me work over 40 hours a week for them free of charge.") and have had absolutely no luck. You're making a living, right? So what's a few extra hours per day?

groby_b 15y ago
That's time I don't spend seeing my partner. That's time my health deteriorates because working excessive hours is unhealthy. That's time I slowly lose friends because I never see them. There's no point in making a living without having a life.
- ruswick 15y ago
  Well, that ultimately comes down to preference. I would rather have a job than extra time to spend in my personal life.
  - acuozzo 15y ago
    > I would rather have a job than extra time to spend in my personal life. I've never interacted with an old and dying man or woman whom would've said anything similar.
  - jwingy 15y ago
    Unless you exhibit traits of aspergers such as often having an obsessive singular focus, this isn't about preference, it's a fact of the human condition. You will burn out and you won't be productive.
  - pullo 15y ago
    I understand your statements as coming from someone who is looking for an opportunity and frustrated now. Wait until you get a job( which you will) and 'settle'. If you are already employed or , looking for fulfillment outside your 'day job', this thread might be more relatable to you.
  - groby_b 15y ago

lss456 15y ago

I used to work at a developer job where it was taboo to leave before 5:30 (even if you came in at 8:30). Management often scheduled meetings (that lasted at least an hour, sometimes more) at 5:30 on a Friday. If you wanted a personal life there, you had to fight for it. And I did - I left the job :)

RobertKohr 15y ago

One of the joys of being a contractor is the complete lack of shame at leaving at 5pm, and being happy when asked to work later (aka get more money). As a salaried worker I was easily pulled into working late hours as it was the status quo. In essence when you are salaried, you are owned, and will be frequently asked to work late, work weekends, and work from home at night. As a contractor, you will still get asked, but only when the reward for the company is worth the cost. As a salaried worker, the only cost for the extra time is your happiness, which isn't worth as much to them as you think. The best jobs are ones where there is no expectation of hours though. This is where you have a significant stake in the outcome, such as an early employee or as an independent project. Where you are no longer getting paid for your time, but only for results.

alan_cx 15y ago

I sell my skills for money. It is all I have, my skilled time. I exchange that time for money. If my pay ends at 5.30, so does my time. No employer has ever given me free money, so Im not about to give them my time for free. The day the free cash is handed out is the day I dish out some free time.

platform 15y ago
there are bonuses and promotions. Or another words 'discretionary' compensation. Your formula above does not work in unless you work for a 0 discretionary compensation place. Promotion paths are also important -- a position or title that is externally recognized as 'achievement'. Is akin to a 'vetting/classification' that was done for your talents. VCs look at that as well as anybody else. So to summarise,discretionary compensation and promosition creates competitive environment. That drives the stress, long hours,and success or failure within a corporate career path.

JohnnyFlash 15y ago

I work till 5pm. Have done for about 2 years now. Whats happened? 1) I haven't burned out 2) I have retained good relationships with my family and friends 3) I enjoy evenings out Previously I worked all hours. If my partner had let me I would have brought the computer to bed and typed into the night. I burned out and jeopardised my relationship. I get that there are times when you need to work longer. When you have a deadline or something really needs to be done. However.. if this is every day for a long period of time then you are probably doing something wrong.

Garbage 15y ago

I hear people repeatedly saying "work-life balance". Work and Life are not different things. Everything is life. If you don't have life, you can't work. It's as simple as that.