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"After agreement of a common date within the EU, we recommend doing the transition in 1 to 2 steps, depending on the member state: Step 1: All EU countries abo
by datadrivenangel 3y ago
"After agreement of a common date within the EU, we recommend doing the transition in 1 to 2 steps, depending on the member state:
Step 1: All EU countries abolish the clock change to DST in spring and remain on the clock time they use in winter. For those countries whose recommended time zone is their current standard time, no further steps need to be taken.
Step 2: Those countries whose recommended time zone is not yet their current standard time, additionally turn back their clocks one last time by one hour in autumn, in order to adopt their recommended time zone as their new standard time."
I really wish we could do this in the US.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- Dylan16807 3y agoI've never seen anyone propose moving in the opposite direction of summer time before. That seems needlessly awkward to me.
- qsort 3y agoThe idea would be to move Spain, France and Benelux to UTC. Currently all of Western Europe is on UTC+1/UTC+2, which is much wider than it "should" be. I have no opinion on the idea, just relaying what they are proposing.
- wiredfool 3y agoIreland is on GMT/-1, and we're already pretty far west in the 15 degrees centered on 0.
- baggy_trough 3y agoThe United States adopted summer time in the 70s but abandoned it because of complaints about the late darkness in winter mornings.
- wharvle 3y agoThe sun setting at or before 5PM is so very much worse than morning darkness. Especially for kids. They need sunlight and their only real opportunity to get much time outside during the school year is the late afternoon and evening, especially as recess time has been cut post-NCLB (and public schools are absurdly timid about sending kids outside in the winter anyway). My kids are old enough that they won’t reap a lot of the benefits of the change even if it happens tomorrow, but I remain hopeful we can make this happen for their kids’ sake. And at least morning darkness means you don’t start your day with a commute that involves having your eyes melted by a just-over-the-horizon sun.
- bobthepanda 3y agoYeah, the argument made more sense in the 70s, but these days school districts have cut back on bus services so much that your child most likely wakes up in darkness anyways to catch a much windier bus route to school.
- pavon 3y agoI don't think it is proposing that. From what I can tell their proposal is a (somewhat awkward) way of saying some countries will stick to their current summer (standard) time next time they switch to it. Other countries will stick with their current winter (DST) time when they next switch to it.
- Dylan16807 3y agoLook at the resulting time zones. They wrote it correctly. Every country is skipping the +1 to summer time, but several of them are still doing a final -1 after that. Several countries that use time zones X and X+1 would switch to X-1.
- netsharc 3y agoYou got the 2 terms mixed up... But yeah, assuming they want to do the magic in September: It would mean for countries where UTC+01:00 (standard time, winter time) makes more sense, they'd move to UTC+01:00 when the next switchover date in September shows up, whereas for countries where UTC+02:00 (daylight savings/summer time) makes more sense, they'd stay on that TZ past the September switchover date. They'd have to assign new names though, one can't have 1 timezone with 2 different names...
- Dylan16807 3y agoNo, none of the countries say on summer time in the plan. Every country that is currently UTC+01:00/UTC+02:00 ends up in either UTC+01:00 or UTC+00:00.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- vikingerik 3y agoThe point is to correct those locales that have gone way too far in the direction of summer time. Spain in particular is almost 3 hours off of solar time. There's a societal pull in the direction of earlier time, even aside from anything about sunlight. Nobody wants to be "late" compared to their economic neighbors so they gravitate towards earlier time zones. This is correcting for that.
- Dylan16807 3y ago> Spain in particular is almost 3 hours off of solar time. I suppose if you squint right at the western edge in summer time you could get there. But the prime meridian runs straight through the country. I think a sensible reckoning would say that it's 1 hour off as a baseline and 1 extra hour during summer.
- reidrac 3y agoDespite the prime meridian crossing the country, Spain is the same timezone as Berlin. One hour more than London. If you are interested, look for the historical reasons for that. Edit: OK, a good source. > On March 16th 1940, the clocks jumped from 23:00h to 00:00h to display the same time as Nazi Germany and other Nazi-occupied countries such as France and the Netherlands. This was an entirely politically motivated move to show support to the fascist government of Germany and showed no consideration for the natural cycle of the sun in Spain. According to the original 24-hour division of the world, Spain’s latitudinal position meant that GMT was the most natural time-zone for it to follow. From: https://theculturetrip.com/europe/spain/articles/heres-why-spain-has-been-in-the-wrong-time-zone-for-the-past-76-years https://theculturetrip.com/europe/spain/articles/heres-why-s... Spanish civil war was won by the fascists and Franco's dictatorship followed.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- polishdude20 3y agoI'd rather it be how it is in the spring rather than winter. When you get home there's at least a bit more time in the day to enjoy the sun.
- loloquwowndueo 3y agoFor large parts of the US it’s probably dark by 4:30 so no, not really. I’m not in the US by the way.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- madcaptenor 3y agoHere's a map of the earliest sunset time: https://weather.com/science/weather-explainers/news/2018-12-11-earliest-sunset-of-the-year-before-winter-solstice https://weather.com/science/weather-explainers/news/2018-12-... . There are parts of the US which have sunsets before 4:30, including some major population centers, but I don't know if I'd call them "large parts".
- alright2565 3y agothat map shows most major cities in North America have the sun set before 5PM (traditional work end time). New York, DC, Los Angeles, San Fransisco, Chicago. New York, Boston, and Chicago all set before 4:30, a minimum of 10% of the population just there.
- madcaptenor 3y agoRight. Most people have sunset before 5 (there's not that much blue on the map), but not before 4:30.
- mjevans 3y agoIf you live, vaguely, in the north (of the 45th parallel) you get that change either way thanks to the tilt of the earth. I'd rather have the sunset start at 8PM and go over the horizon at 9PM (without DST) in the summer, than the current ends at 10PM in the summer. https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/usa/seattle https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/usa/seattle Now somewhere like Miami, FL https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/usa/miami https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/usa/miami with DST has a longest day of about 6AM to 8:40PM (civil twilight start / end), which without DST goes to 5AM and 7:40PM.
- xoa 3y agoWell we can't, and that's having tried! The replies do a great job of illustrating why really: there's no consensus. Some want permanent standard time. Some want permanent DST. Some are fine the way it is. In a big country spanning a lot of latitude as well as longitude and tens of millions on wildly different work and sleep schedules, messy compromise making no one entirely happy is what success looks like. Basically time stuff is arguably one of the big Chesterton's Fences that comes up on HN a lot. We didn't end up where we are for no reason or because people in the past were stupid.
- BurningFrog 3y agoWe legislate lots of things without consensus with 51-49 majorities. People in the past had a very different time environment. I used to have 1 watch. Now I have a dozen different clocks in my apartment. We also did not interact with other time zones nearly as much.
- xoa 3y ago>We legislate lots of things without consensus with 51-49 majorities. We really do not in the US when it's a matter of genuine controversy. Once in a long while something gets forced through if the status quo is just unsustainable or it's a core plank issue or something, but the system isn't designed to allow anyone hitting 51 to easily pass anything contentious. And that's with your implicit take that there is a 51-49, but that's the thing, it's not a dichotomy in the first place. It's more like 25/25/40/5/3/1/1. Plus this isn't some inherently critical issue, for most people it's at most a minor irritation twice per year. For some it's a minor enjoyable, "free sleep". And thus status quo rules :). >People in the past had a very different time environment. I used to have 1 watch. Now I have a dozen different clocks in my apartment. Indeed! Our clocks used to not have global sub-millisecond automatic time synchronization.
- anon84873628 3y ago>Plus this isn't some inherently critical issue, for most people it's at most a minor irritation twice per year. For some it's a minor enjoyable, "free sleep". I want to push back on this a bit. It's not just the moment of change itself, it's how wall time compares to the sun. And the problem with that is business hours being stuck to wall time. Essentially the government controls how business hours relate to the sun, instead of expecting each entity to change their business hours with the seasons (or not) as desired. This goes back to the time when business hours posted on a door were much more important. If you are stuck in a "9-5" job or otherwise are committed to what the clock says, the time change significantly controls your interaction with the sun.
- golemotron 3y ago> I really wish we could do this in the US. The US is about 4000 miles wider. That makes it hard.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]