5 ms·

Quality of life is much easier and cheaper here in EU so, in general, our standard of life doesn't cost as much. I generally assume that a dev salary here is eq

Quality of life is much easier and cheaper here in EU so, in general, our standard of life doesn't cost as much. I generally assume that a dev salary here is equivalent to a salary in the US that is about 2x. So we are cheaper cause half the salary here gives us a really nice life somewhat similar to what someone would have in the US at 2x.

darkclouds 3y ago
[dead]
i_have_an_idea 3y ago
What a myth. You probably live in a cramped 60 sq.m. rented apartment, whilst your American counterpart lives in a mansion house in the suburbs of a major city. You ride the public transport to work and your counterpart drives his luxury SUV.
- gerardcastillo 3y ago
  Disagreeing is fine but myth is an odd word to choose since I live it in 2023. For reference, I'm from Los Angeles, moved to EU and can attest to this.¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  - i_have_an_idea 3y ago
    My overall point is that of course your cost of living will be lower when you consume a lot less. And I disagree that the quality of life is the same for someone who lives in a nice house vs small apartment, has to use public transport vs personal luxury vehicle and so on.
    - gerardcastillo 3y ago
      Yeah, I get that people have different thoughts and priorities on what is luxurious to them. That makes sense. I'm not really a car person since I grew up needing one for 30 years in LA finding parking multiple times a day. I just wouldn't make too many assumptions about how things work over here. Not sure why there is an assumption that I live in a small apartment. Big houses are also cheap in the suburbs over here :) You should visit sometime!
      - ddorian43 3y ago
        Your "moved to EU" is very generic. If you say the city name it would become more clear to readers.
    - addicted 3y ago
      You are right about the quality of life being different between the two. You’re probably not right about which one is actually better. https://news.uchicago.edu/story/cities-depression-lower-rates-mental-health-psychology-socioeconomic-networks https://news.uchicago.edu/story/cities-depression-lower-rate... And this is in the U.S. which has among the worst cities but the best suburbs in the developed world.
    - KptMarchewa 3y ago
      Of course, the one having to do hour long commutes in personal tin can has it worse.
      - i_have_an_idea 3y ago
        https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod/images/2025-cadillac-escalade-iq-interior-109-64d24fb591b24.jpg https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod/images/2025-cadillac-es... Looks horrible. I'm sure it's much better to be packed like in a can of sardines with all kinds of random people.
        blovescoffee 3y ago
        To each their own. Personally I prefer to ride the metro when I could easily take an Uber or buy a car. It’s quite relaxing and super cheap.
    - snapcaster 3y ago
      small apartment + not driving anywhere is much better
    - financltravsty 3y ago
      Consuming less, what a thought! I feel I need to consume less in general whenever I’m outside the U.S. It might be the lack of stress that pervades everything in the U.S. I don’t need material things to comfort me when my spiritual needs are taken care of.
      - gtirloni 3y ago
        That's fine but your employer is making the same or more due to your work, while you "enjoy" your frugal lifestyle. Why not be properly compensated, spend less and enjoy life with extra vacations or early retirement?
        financltravsty 3y ago
        Early retirement is usually a symptom of the above: you do not enjoy your present life, so you hope to escape the circumstances surrounding it. Do most Europeans need an early retirement or are they living a relaxed, fulfilling life and have no need for an escape?
        gtirloni 3y ago
        My point is that someone is exploiting your (very acceptable and correct, IMHO) relaxed lifestyle. It's the society you're inserted in, for better or worse.
    - fulafel 3y ago
      Consuming less is pretty much a moral imperative in the climate crisis.
      - isbvhodnvemrwvn 3y ago
        Out of choice, not out of necessity.
- ahoka 3y ago
  The poor European probably doesn't even have a gun. What a loser!
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- addicted 3y ago
  Another way to put that is you live in a house that is the right size for you which minimizes the amount of stuff you need to buy just so it isn’t filled with cobwebs, and can actually keep it clean and maintained without having to spend inordinate amounts of time of your week to the point your weekends are entirely about “mowing the lawn, or clearing the attic”, and have walking or a quick bus ride access to all the amenities a major city has to offer, as opposed to the opposite, where even buying a pack of gum requires you to get into a car and conduct an activity that kills nearly 50,000 Americans a year.
  - hotpotamus 3y ago
    As an American, I have to say that that really does sound nice. I've never been all that "good" of a consumer, but increasingly I wonder what I need more stuff for. I think a lot of it is a status thing which I've always resented being a bit caught up in.
    - asdajksah2123 3y ago
      As someone who has lived in the US for 20 years but has moved quite a bit within the country, and lived in multiple other countries before, but continues to travel a lot, I've become very aware of the "stuff" I have. And it's fairly obvious to me that the 2 largest drivers for the stuff have been: 1. Marketing 2. Needing to fill space I believe most Americans live in far too large houses and would benefit from downsizing, especially once the kids move out. Additionally, I think Americans would benefit from some strategies to avoid impulse buying (the ones I have used successfully in the past, but have lacked the discipline to maintain include never buying anything the day I think of buying it, but always waiting at least 1 day, and avoiding using credit cards and almost entirely depending on cash).
  - sugarplant 3y ago
    wow what an intellectual spin on being barely compensated for working renting in your 40s and making quite literally 1/3rd of salary an american sounds really cool now that i think about it
- jsjsof 3y ago
  US cities are also full of homeless people and thugs with guns. Plus it's not safe to walk on the street, you have to drive everywhere. Pros and cons.
  - i_have_an_idea 3y ago
    > US cities are also full of homeless people and thugs with guns. So are big European cities like Amsterdam, London, Paris etc. The only difference is that it's not guns but knifes, machetes, brass knuckles and what not. Those are just problems of big cities, not some problem unique to the US.
    - asdajksah2123 3y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_homicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_homicide_rat... Top 50 cities (not in a war) with the highest homicide rates (best proxy for crime, (a) because it's most easily available, (b) it's fairly easy to compare across places because different places have different reporting and data collection standards) lists 8 cities in the US and 0 in Europe. What is amazing and took me by surprise that even Eastern European cities just coming out of the Cold War have lower homicide rates than at least 8 US cities. Also, if you think the homeless problem in the US is like anywhere else in the developed world you need to get out more.
      - dotcoma 3y ago
        “ Eastern European” cities came out of the Cold War in 1989…
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
    - GaryNumanVevo 3y ago
      Of course, the worst part about the EU homeless is they all speak in an 1950's gangster accent when they try and steal your wallet with a greaser style switchblade.
- mopsi 3y ago
  > You ride the public transport to work and your counterpart drives his luxury SUV. Oh, it's way worse. Within 10 minutes' walking distance from my home, I have a professional theatre, a concert hall, a cinema, a library, multiple very good schools, museums, several shopping centers, hundreds of bars and restaurants, a farmers market, and a ton of other places. I'm naughty and barely consume anything to visit those places, not even a drop of petrol. I'm so deprived of luxury that I walk to work like a Depression-era pauper.
  - sugarplant 3y ago
    no way! in america we don't have any of those things!
    - asdajksah2123 3y ago
      Within a 10 min walking distance of a US suburb? Soccer moms was a phrase invented in the US for a reason.
      - sugarplant 3y ago
        the key difference is that the american can choose to live in the city and enjoy these cutesy activities. in a lot of european countries, owning a home seems extremely difficult without inheriting, so they have no choice but to rent i think the op framed the argument in a way that will make a lot of people react negatively
        helij 3y ago
        Home ownership[0][1] is pretty much on par US vs EU. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_ownership_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_owne... [1]https://eyeonhousing.org/2015/06/a-cross-country-comparison-of-homeownership-rates/ https://eyeonhousing.org/2015/06/a-cross-country-comparison-... A lot of myths in this whole thread.
        Spooky23 3y ago
VirusNewbie 3y ago
I have never seen EU compensation that is even half of what I make, it's usually 1/4 or 1/5th.
- GaryNumanVevo 3y ago
  You likely never will, at least publicly. I moved from the silicon valley to Amsterdam and negotiated a custom compensation package. I'm making 70% of what I was making as an L5, but the cost of living is much cheaper than SF. My wife and I bought our apartment in the city in cash, and are also looking at buying a summer home in France.
  - VirusNewbie 3y ago
    oh crazy. Do you have a really high title or something? Or are you just an L5 making 4x what others in the same title have?
    - GaryNumanVevo 3y ago
      Title bump + different salary band. There's other SV expats here with similar compensation packages. Base salary is lower, but it's made up for in loads of stock with very fast vesting schedules. Tax wise it's nice because I'm no longer paying California state tax or most of my federal taxes (via Foreign Earned Income Exclusion). I'm just sitting on loads of RSUs, I'll probably quit once I get my permanent residency and retire for a few years to sell off and rebalance my portfolio.
    - GaryNumanVevo 3y ago
      There's a good post that goes into how salary bands work in the EU for SV Expats [1]. Basically for global talent, the total comp can be 4x to 5x what a local dev would expect to make. For obvious reasons, this isn't widely broadcasted or talked about. [1] - https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/software-engineering-salaries-in-the-netherlands-and-europe/ https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/software-engineering-sala...

darkclouds 3y ago

[dead]

i_have_an_idea 3y ago

What a myth. You probably live in a cramped 60 sq.m. rented apartment, whilst your American counterpart lives in a mansion house in the suburbs of a major city. You ride the public transport to work and your counterpart drives his luxury SUV.

gerardcastillo 3y ago
Disagreeing is fine but myth is an odd word to choose since I live it in 2023. For reference, I'm from Los Angeles, moved to EU and can attest to this.¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- i_have_an_idea 3y ago
  My overall point is that of course your cost of living will be lower when you consume a lot less. And I disagree that the quality of life is the same for someone who lives in a nice house vs small apartment, has to use public transport vs personal luxury vehicle and so on.
  - gerardcastillo 3y ago
    Yeah, I get that people have different thoughts and priorities on what is luxurious to them. That makes sense. I'm not really a car person since I grew up needing one for 30 years in LA finding parking multiple times a day. I just wouldn't make too many assumptions about how things work over here. Not sure why there is an assumption that I live in a small apartment. Big houses are also cheap in the suburbs over here :) You should visit sometime!
    - ddorian43 3y ago
      Your "moved to EU" is very generic. If you say the city name it would become more clear to readers.
  - addicted 3y ago
    You are right about the quality of life being different between the two. You’re probably not right about which one is actually better. https://news.uchicago.edu/story/cities-depression-lower-rates-mental-health-psychology-socioeconomic-networks https://news.uchicago.edu/story/cities-depression-lower-rate... And this is in the U.S. which has among the worst cities but the best suburbs in the developed world.
  - KptMarchewa 3y ago
    Of course, the one having to do hour long commutes in personal tin can has it worse.
    - i_have_an_idea 3y ago
      https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod/images/2025-cadillac-escalade-iq-interior-109-64d24fb591b24.jpg https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod/images/2025-cadillac-es... Looks horrible. I'm sure it's much better to be packed like in a can of sardines with all kinds of random people.
      - blovescoffee 3y ago
        To each their own. Personally I prefer to ride the metro when I could easily take an Uber or buy a car. It’s quite relaxing and super cheap.
  - snapcaster 3y ago
    small apartment + not driving anywhere is much better
  - financltravsty 3y ago
    Consuming less, what a thought! I feel I need to consume less in general whenever I’m outside the U.S. It might be the lack of stress that pervades everything in the U.S. I don’t need material things to comfort me when my spiritual needs are taken care of.
    - gtirloni 3y ago
      That's fine but your employer is making the same or more due to your work, while you "enjoy" your frugal lifestyle. Why not be properly compensated, spend less and enjoy life with extra vacations or early retirement?
      - financltravsty 3y ago
        Early retirement is usually a symptom of the above: you do not enjoy your present life, so you hope to escape the circumstances surrounding it. Do most Europeans need an early retirement or are they living a relaxed, fulfilling life and have no need for an escape?
        gtirloni 3y ago
        My point is that someone is exploiting your (very acceptable and correct, IMHO) relaxed lifestyle. It's the society you're inserted in, for better or worse.
  - fulafel 3y ago
    Consuming less is pretty much a moral imperative in the climate crisis.
    - isbvhodnvemrwvn 3y ago
      Out of choice, not out of necessity.
ahoka 3y ago
The poor European probably doesn't even have a gun. What a loser!
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
addicted 3y ago
Another way to put that is you live in a house that is the right size for you which minimizes the amount of stuff you need to buy just so it isn’t filled with cobwebs, and can actually keep it clean and maintained without having to spend inordinate amounts of time of your week to the point your weekends are entirely about “mowing the lawn, or clearing the attic”, and have walking or a quick bus ride access to all the amenities a major city has to offer, as opposed to the opposite, where even buying a pack of gum requires you to get into a car and conduct an activity that kills nearly 50,000 Americans a year.
- hotpotamus 3y ago
  As an American, I have to say that that really does sound nice. I've never been all that "good" of a consumer, but increasingly I wonder what I need more stuff for. I think a lot of it is a status thing which I've always resented being a bit caught up in.
  - asdajksah2123 3y ago
    As someone who has lived in the US for 20 years but has moved quite a bit within the country, and lived in multiple other countries before, but continues to travel a lot, I've become very aware of the "stuff" I have. And it's fairly obvious to me that the 2 largest drivers for the stuff have been: 1. Marketing 2. Needing to fill space I believe most Americans live in far too large houses and would benefit from downsizing, especially once the kids move out. Additionally, I think Americans would benefit from some strategies to avoid impulse buying (the ones I have used successfully in the past, but have lacked the discipline to maintain include never buying anything the day I think of buying it, but always waiting at least 1 day, and avoiding using credit cards and almost entirely depending on cash).
- sugarplant 3y ago
  wow what an intellectual spin on being barely compensated for working renting in your 40s and making quite literally 1/3rd of salary an american sounds really cool now that i think about it
jsjsof 3y ago
US cities are also full of homeless people and thugs with guns. Plus it's not safe to walk on the street, you have to drive everywhere. Pros and cons.
- i_have_an_idea 3y ago
  > US cities are also full of homeless people and thugs with guns. So are big European cities like Amsterdam, London, Paris etc. The only difference is that it's not guns but knifes, machetes, brass knuckles and what not. Those are just problems of big cities, not some problem unique to the US.
  - asdajksah2123 3y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_homicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_homicide_rat... Top 50 cities (not in a war) with the highest homicide rates (best proxy for crime, (a) because it's most easily available, (b) it's fairly easy to compare across places because different places have different reporting and data collection standards) lists 8 cities in the US and 0 in Europe. What is amazing and took me by surprise that even Eastern European cities just coming out of the Cold War have lower homicide rates than at least 8 US cities. Also, if you think the homeless problem in the US is like anywhere else in the developed world you need to get out more.
    - dotcoma 3y ago
      “ Eastern European” cities came out of the Cold War in 1989…
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
  - GaryNumanVevo 3y ago
    Of course, the worst part about the EU homeless is they all speak in an 1950's gangster accent when they try and steal your wallet with a greaser style switchblade.
mopsi 3y ago
> You ride the public transport to work and your counterpart drives his luxury SUV. Oh, it's way worse. Within 10 minutes' walking distance from my home, I have a professional theatre, a concert hall, a cinema, a library, multiple very good schools, museums, several shopping centers, hundreds of bars and restaurants, a farmers market, and a ton of other places. I'm naughty and barely consume anything to visit those places, not even a drop of petrol. I'm so deprived of luxury that I walk to work like a Depression-era pauper.
- sugarplant 3y ago
  no way! in america we don't have any of those things!
  - asdajksah2123 3y ago
    Within a 10 min walking distance of a US suburb? Soccer moms was a phrase invented in the US for a reason.
    - sugarplant 3y ago
      the key difference is that the american can choose to live in the city and enjoy these cutesy activities. in a lot of european countries, owning a home seems extremely difficult without inheriting, so they have no choice but to rent i think the op framed the argument in a way that will make a lot of people react negatively
      - helij 3y ago
        Home ownership[0][1] is pretty much on par US vs EU. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_ownership_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_owne... [1]https://eyeonhousing.org/2015/06/a-cross-country-comparison-of-homeownership-rates/ https://eyeonhousing.org/2015/06/a-cross-country-comparison-... A lot of myths in this whole thread.
      - Spooky23 3y ago

VirusNewbie 3y ago

I have never seen EU compensation that is even half of what I make, it's usually 1/4 or 1/5th.

GaryNumanVevo 3y ago
You likely never will, at least publicly. I moved from the silicon valley to Amsterdam and negotiated a custom compensation package. I'm making 70% of what I was making as an L5, but the cost of living is much cheaper than SF. My wife and I bought our apartment in the city in cash, and are also looking at buying a summer home in France.
- VirusNewbie 3y ago
  oh crazy. Do you have a really high title or something? Or are you just an L5 making 4x what others in the same title have?
  - GaryNumanVevo 3y ago
    Title bump + different salary band. There's other SV expats here with similar compensation packages. Base salary is lower, but it's made up for in loads of stock with very fast vesting schedules. Tax wise it's nice because I'm no longer paying California state tax or most of my federal taxes (via Foreign Earned Income Exclusion). I'm just sitting on loads of RSUs, I'll probably quit once I get my permanent residency and retire for a few years to sell off and rebalance my portfolio.
  - GaryNumanVevo 3y ago
    There's a good post that goes into how salary bands work in the EU for SV Expats [1]. Basically for global talent, the total comp can be 4x to 5x what a local dev would expect to make. For obvious reasons, this isn't widely broadcasted or talked about. [1] - https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/software-engineering-salaries-in-the-netherlands-and-europe/ https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/software-engineering-sala...