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Ask HN: Why are SWE in the US more expensive than SWE in Europe?
Hello HN,
This is something that doesn't make sense to me, I was trying to hire a developer for a side project and received an astronomical quote for around $25K for what seems to be a simple and basic site, the EU developer (UK specifically) quoted me around $1 to $2K and was equally as senior engineer (I checked both of their work and github projects)
This on top of now most software engineers are using AI Copilot and ChatGPT in their work which means that most quotes and salaries look very overpriced.
Am I missing something here?
- gwnywg 3y agoI guess $25k quote was to test the ground how serious you are. I personally would not touch $1k project, considering how much of a hassle it is to maintain it later.
- gerardcastillo 3y agoQuality of life is much easier and cheaper here in EU so, in general, our standard of life doesn't cost as much. I generally assume that a dev salary here is equivalent to a salary in the US that is about 2x. So we are cheaper cause half the salary here gives us a really nice life somewhat similar to what someone would have in the US at 2x.
- darkclouds 3y ago[dead]
- i_have_an_idea 3y agoWhat a myth. You probably live in a cramped 60 sq.m. rented apartment, whilst your American counterpart lives in a mansion house in the suburbs of a major city. You ride the public transport to work and your counterpart drives his luxury SUV.
- gerardcastillo 3y agoDisagreeing is fine but myth is an odd word to choose since I live it in 2023. For reference, I'm from Los Angeles, moved to EU and can attest to this.¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- i_have_an_idea 3y agoMy overall point is that of course your cost of living will be lower when you consume a lot less. And I disagree that the quality of life is the same for someone who lives in a nice house vs small apartment, has to use public transport vs personal luxury vehicle and so on.
- gerardcastillo 3y agoYeah, I get that people have different thoughts and priorities on what is luxurious to them. That makes sense. I'm not really a car person since I grew up needing one for 30 years in LA finding parking multiple times a day. I just wouldn't make too many assumptions about how things work over here. Not sure why there is an assumption that I live in a small apartment. Big houses are also cheap in the suburbs over here :) You should visit sometime!
- ddorian43 3y agoYour "moved to EU" is very generic. If you say the city name it would become more clear to readers.
- addicted 3y agoYou are right about the quality of life being different between the two. You’re probably not right about which one is actually better. https://news.uchicago.edu/story/cities-depression-lower-rates-mental-health-psychology-socioeconomic-networks https://news.uchicago.edu/story/cities-depression-lower-rate... And this is in the U.S. which has among the worst cities but the best suburbs in the developed world.
- KptMarchewa 3y agoOf course, the one having to do hour long commutes in personal tin can has it worse.
- i_have_an_idea 3y agohttps://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod/images/2025-cadillac-escalade-iq-interior-109-64d24fb591b24.jpg https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod/images/2025-cadillac-es... Looks horrible. I'm sure it's much better to be packed like in a can of sardines with all kinds of random people.
- ahoka 3y agoThe poor European probably doesn't even have a gun. What a loser!
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- addicted 3y agoAnother way to put that is you live in a house that is the right size for you which minimizes the amount of stuff you need to buy just so it isn’t filled with cobwebs, and can actually keep it clean and maintained without having to spend inordinate amounts of time of your week to the point your weekends are entirely about “mowing the lawn, or clearing the attic”, and have walking or a quick bus ride access to all the amenities a major city has to offer, as opposed to the opposite, where even buying a pack of gum requires you to get into a car and conduct an activity that kills nearly 50,000 Americans a year.
- hotpotamus 3y agoAs an American, I have to say that that really does sound nice. I've never been all that "good" of a consumer, but increasingly I wonder what I need more stuff for. I think a lot of it is a status thing which I've always resented being a bit caught up in.
- asdajksah2123 3y agoAs someone who has lived in the US for 20 years but has moved quite a bit within the country, and lived in multiple other countries before, but continues to travel a lot, I've become very aware of the "stuff" I have. And it's fairly obvious to me that the 2 largest drivers for the stuff have been: 1. Marketing 2. Needing to fill space I believe most Americans live in far too large houses and would benefit from downsizing, especially once the kids move out. Additionally, I think Americans would benefit from some strategies to avoid impulse buying (the ones I have used successfully in the past, but have lacked the discipline to maintain include never buying anything the day I think of buying it, but always waiting at least 1 day, and avoiding using credit cards and almost entirely depending on cash).
- sugarplant 3y agowow what an intellectual spin on being barely compensated for working renting in your 40s and making quite literally 1/3rd of salary an american sounds really cool now that i think about it
- jsjsof 3y agoUS cities are also full of homeless people and thugs with guns. Plus it's not safe to walk on the street, you have to drive everywhere. Pros and cons.
- i_have_an_idea 3y ago> US cities are also full of homeless people and thugs with guns. So are big European cities like Amsterdam, London, Paris etc. The only difference is that it's not guns but knifes, machetes, brass knuckles and what not. Those are just problems of big cities, not some problem unique to the US.
- asdajksah2123 3y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_homicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_homicide_rat... Top 50 cities (not in a war) with the highest homicide rates (best proxy for crime, (a) because it's most easily available, (b) it's fairly easy to compare across places because different places have different reporting and data collection standards) lists 8 cities in the US and 0 in Europe. What is amazing and took me by surprise that even Eastern European cities just coming out of the Cold War have lower homicide rates than at least 8 US cities. Also, if you think the homeless problem in the US is like anywhere else in the developed world you need to get out more.
- dotcoma 3y ago“ Eastern European” cities came out of the Cold War in 1989…
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- GaryNumanVevo 3y agoOf course, the worst part about the EU homeless is they all speak in an 1950's gangster accent when they try and steal your wallet with a greaser style switchblade.
- mopsi 3y ago> You ride the public transport to work and your counterpart drives his luxury SUV. Oh, it's way worse. Within 10 minutes' walking distance from my home, I have a professional theatre, a concert hall, a cinema, a library, multiple very good schools, museums, several shopping centers, hundreds of bars and restaurants, a farmers market, and a ton of other places. I'm naughty and barely consume anything to visit those places, not even a drop of petrol. I'm so deprived of luxury that I walk to work like a Depression-era pauper.
- sugarplant 3y agono way! in america we don't have any of those things!
- asdajksah2123 3y agoWithin a 10 min walking distance of a US suburb? Soccer moms was a phrase invented in the US for a reason.
- sugarplant 3y agothe key difference is that the american can choose to live in the city and enjoy these cutesy activities. in a lot of european countries, owning a home seems extremely difficult without inheriting, so they have no choice but to rent i think the op framed the argument in a way that will make a lot of people react negatively
- helij 3y agoHome ownership[0][1] is pretty much on par US vs EU. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_ownership_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_owne... [1]https://eyeonhousing.org/2015/06/a-cross-country-comparison-of-homeownership-rates/ https://eyeonhousing.org/2015/06/a-cross-country-comparison-... A lot of myths in this whole thread.
- Spooky23 3y ago
- VirusNewbie 3y agoI have never seen EU compensation that is even half of what I make, it's usually 1/4 or 1/5th.
- GaryNumanVevo 3y agoYou likely never will, at least publicly. I moved from the silicon valley to Amsterdam and negotiated a custom compensation package. I'm making 70% of what I was making as an L5, but the cost of living is much cheaper than SF. My wife and I bought our apartment in the city in cash, and are also looking at buying a summer home in France.
- VirusNewbie 3y agooh crazy. Do you have a really high title or something? Or are you just an L5 making 4x what others in the same title have?
- GaryNumanVevo 3y agoTitle bump + different salary band. There's other SV expats here with similar compensation packages. Base salary is lower, but it's made up for in loads of stock with very fast vesting schedules. Tax wise it's nice because I'm no longer paying California state tax or most of my federal taxes (via Foreign Earned Income Exclusion). I'm just sitting on loads of RSUs, I'll probably quit once I get my permanent residency and retire for a few years to sell off and rebalance my portfolio.
- GaryNumanVevo 3y agoThere's a good post that goes into how salary bands work in the EU for SV Expats [1]. Basically for global talent, the total comp can be 4x to 5x what a local dev would expect to make. For obvious reasons, this isn't widely broadcasted or talked about. [1] - https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/software-engineering-salaries-in-the-netherlands-and-europe/ https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/software-engineering-sala...
- dathinab 3y ago1. Silicon Vally carries a lot of weight to a point it increases prices outside of it 2. Venture Capitalism has gone wild in the US 3. the true cost of living, as in if you want proper health insurance + healthy living + security/peace of mind in the US is can be quite high, much higher then in the EU even through taxes are much lower (creating a huge gap between what seems to be the cost of living if you don't look into details and what is) 4. UK is not in the EU anymore, and the effect of leaving it are starting to hit hard
- latexr 3y ago> now most software engineers are using AI Copilot and ChatGPT in their work Citation needed. I doubt we’re at the level of “most”. And if we are, I worry (even more) for the quality of future software.
- qd011 3y agoIt's not as big of a leap from using Google or Stackoverflow as it might seem on the surface.
- latexr 3y agoYes, it is. And I say this as someone who explored significantly more than the surface. Even the way you “search” is different, as is the number of results and contrasting opinions you see.
- bakuninsbart 3y agoI had copilot on as default for a while and it was more annoying than useful. Now I only use it if it is a task I expect it to do well, but honestly most of these could equally be done by becoming a vim/grep wizard.
- is_true 3y agoThis is really important, it perfectly describes the OP. He is cheap and lives in a bubble.
- i_have_an_idea 3y ago> This on top of now most software engineers are using AI Copilot and ChatGPT in their work which means that most quotes and salaries look very overpriced. So, why don't you use these services and do the work yourself then?
- jacobriis 3y agoYou received two quotes and you assess US developers are 16x more expensive than European developers? I assess your venture is not likely to succeed.
- rvz 3y ago> I assess your venture is not likely to succeed. It works well for many companies offshoring to cheaper countries which is still a thing.
- isbvhodnvemrwvn 3y agoIt's more that the thought process of interpolating things from two quotes indicates not much activity going on between the ears.
- dev_0 3y ago[dead]
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- jsjsof 3y agoYou get what you pay for. Good european engineers have US rates.
- coolThingsFirst 3y agoNot true, even FAANGs with equal hiring bar pay US engineers a lot more. The thing is not only FAANGs pay great salaries in the US, there are tons of other companies that do it. In Europe it's the FAANGs + some trading firms and that's it. This reduces the desire to perfect one's craft and people become chill & lazy.
- jsjsof 3y agoYou should try to read before posting, the question is about contracting. Also, FAANGs in Europe suck and most of their good developers move to the US.
- coolThingsFirst 3y agoThe hiring bar is the same and the number of companies in europe that ask much harder questions for 4x lower salary is huge. European state universities are pretty difficult and the requirements are much harder than US ones. No one hears sob stories - 59/60 is still a fail for 1 point, better luck next time. There are no privileges in Europe for sitting in first row.
- jsjsof 3y agoAt least we can agree on something. Try contracting, you can get more than FAANGs pay in Europe.
- coolThingsFirst 3y agoIt's difficult getting the first client. You mean like Upwork? The other concern is it would likely look very bad on a resume, did this for one client another thing for another. I'm early stage in career and not an expert on anything yet.
- coolThingsFirst 3y agoBecause SWE engineers in Europe are underpaid. You create a software product you can sell it anywhere not like you are bound by the country. This gets exploited by European startups that hire much cheaper talent and offer much cheaper services to US customers.
- flappyeagle 3y agoThe US engineer you mentioned does t want to work with people for whom cost is a concern. Those clients are annoying to work with. When I did contract work this was my strategy.
- gwnywg 3y agoThis is even more true when the customer is a corporate who counts every penny but wants to make milions...
- solardev 3y agoI'm going to share an unpopular opinion: US engineers are drastically overpaid, living off easy VC money for too long. We're not that much better than our foreign peers (if at all). We just live in an epicenter of speculatory investment, with easy money and careless spending meant to give the illusion of early success prior to an IPO or acquisition. The bubble finally burst and thousands were laid off, and the market is correcting itself slowly. Hopefully salaries will come back down to earth. US techies are hated for a reason, because we're drastically overpaid compared to the skill and education that it takes (vs other white collar jobs) and we drive up costs of living for everyone else while contributing much less to society than your average doctor or engineer. Covid made matters worse (I nearly doubled my salary switching companies during that time, although it was never my intent). The intensity of demand fueled even more unrealistic salaries, followed by even more intense layoffs. In this environment, especially with our lack of social safety nets, you can't easily make a small and stable tech company that wants sustainable business instead of hypergrowth. Every startup aims to be the next Alphabet / OpenAI, instead of meeting some practical need in a niche. The US has always been a gilded society with the capitalists driving society and economy, and we just happen to be higher up that pyramid for the time being, as their latest minions. Not because we are that special or that great, but just because they need us (for now) to recoup their investments. We're just pampered pawns in a sinister game, destroying cities and communities in our wake. I'm glad Europe doesn't have the same mentality. Don't copy us.
- asdajksah2123 3y agoWhile your opinion that US tech workers might be overpaid may be true, it bears questioning why this is happening in the Tech sector, one where even before COVID it was far easier to hire remote and offshore workers than say serving burgers. The gap between Tech worker salaries in the US and abroad dwarfs the gap in any other industry by a lot, and in many cases may also be reverse (where the US employees are paid less).
- solardev 3y agoUS companies do frequently hire foreign workers. I worked with many at my last job. But there are still culture and language gaps to deal with, and even with foreign workers, these investment ventures couldn't hire enough people. And the bigger tech companies with insane wages gobble up way more devs than they need, leaving it hard for non tech US businesses to hire developers. We didn't care because it upped our salaries, but now the flip side is we've trained normal businesses to see us as unaffordable. You can't just have a dev or two paid a living wage to maintain a website anymore, you need a whole team or else just outsource the whole thing to Vercel etc. We've consolidated much of the labor side to SaaS instead of regular devs in regular companies. Anyway, I'm not arguing against the reality of supply and demand, but the sustainability of a demand side built off short term hypergrowth vs stable businesses spread across sectors. It's just another dot com bubble and I think it's not great for US society to have these extreme wage gaps, and not great for US business to basically invest everything we have into tech/advertising bubbles and not much else.
- Pigalowda 3y agoI had a project that a US developer wanted 4x the money and 10x the duration for a really small project. I went with the eastern european developer and it was fine. The eastern european developer outsourced the project to India too when i read the code signature, which I laughed about.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- toasted-subs 3y ago1 or 2k seems fishy.
- sixothree 3y agoThe amount of time spent discussing simple things like font choice, button shape and placement could eat that much money rapidly.
- asdajksah2123 3y agoI think one of the more obvious reasons is because companies genuinely believed in the benefit of geographical colocation. And Tech has largely been a winner takes all industry, so paying large sums of more money to hire people is worth it because they payoff is huge, and if you're not #1 you're likely bust. For better or worse American Tech workers have decided to voluntarily give up (nay, aggressively demanded to get rid of) the geographical colocation advantage. Assuming the whole RTO movement doesn't work out (and with the resistance one can see I expect it not to, especially when office leases come up for renewals and decision makers are like, why pay for the office when we can sell not paying for it and offloading costs to workers as an advantage to them, and they're not coming in anyways), I suspect we will find out the truth of this hypothesis within a decade as American salaries converge with global salaries. That's assuming AI doesn't make us all unemployable of course.
- BadCookie 3y agoIf you want a simple website for, say, a local business, then a service like Squarespace or Shopify probably does what you want. Programming ability may not be necessary. If you want something much more custom than that built from scratch, then I strongly doubt that you can get it done for $1-2k competently no matter where the developer is located. To use a (somewhat poor) analogy, there’s a big difference in price between pre-built cabinets from IKEA and custom-built cabinets that exactly fit your space using your preferred materials and finishes even though both are just basic wooden boxes with doors that open. AI has not impacted developer wages yet as far as I know. Pay expectations may have fallen a bit, but that’s got more to do with layoffs caused by interest rate increases.
- b20000 3y agocost of living in large metros in the US is easily x4 of what it is in western europe. also websites in western europe can easily be 10-25k if you work with an agency. you are wrong that real software engineers use AI tools primarily to write code.
- BWStearns 3y ago> This on top of now most software engineers are using IDE Autocompletion in their work which means that most quotes and salaries look very overpriced.
- ironlake 3y agoAnd the compilers. Do software engineers even write code anymore? It all gets compiled so why do we pay these people so much?
- karmakaze 3y agoIt probably comes down to large US corps simply having more money. Since they're in competition with each other they pay more to get and sometimes even hoard devs.
- kathleenlesley 3y ago[dead]
- GaryNumanVevo 3y agoI didn't realize inflation was that bad in the US!
- is_true 3y agoThere's another possibility that I didn't see here. I usually help people hiring developers and when you get quotes that are that different with people on similar seniority levels it's usually because the requirements aren't specified enough.
- gwnywg 3y agoIt costs time and efford to come up with detailed-enough specification :) I once wanted to take a project with BigCorp, my first offer was dead cheap since their requirements were consisting of two lines of text. So I gave them a feel of what I'd build for them within their tiny budget. 4 years later they still try to get somebody to build that thing for them, but specs are now 40 pages long and budget is still tiny. I dropped out 2 years ago (after providing n-th offer quoting 15x more than original quote), at the time I was already smelling a trap project, now I'm glad it went that way, I feel sorry I spent time preparing those offers.