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The fact that BMW and Mini are at the top of this list should make you ignore this data. First off, the Mini is just a smaller BMW, second the BMWs are complic

by winrid 3y ago

The fact that BMW and Mini are at the top of this list should make you ignore this data. First off, the Mini is just a smaller BMW, second the BMWs are complicated and designed to be maintained a certain way because that is how german cars are designed. You don't accidentally go 10k over an oil change on a higher mileage BMW and expect nothing bad to happen, but that would probably be okay on a Honda/Toyota/some American cars.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
Dah00n 3y ago
Of couse you shouldn't just ignore it. What you should do is think a bit deeper than "X > Y so X = better". Included in the data is the fact that a BMW needs the maintenance it does, to rank where it ranks here, as its average owner maintain it as they do. The maintenance schedule and how the BMWs included in the statistics were maintained is likely different than on a Toyota, but following the maintenance schedule or not is up to you to decide. However, those who do not follow the maintenance schedule are included here as well as are those who service their BMW more than required. If you are not average, expect results that are not average. That goes both ways.
- winrid 3y ago
  I the 2nd point maybe I didn't get across well is more that the initial three years does not tell as much or are very useful. In 2023 people are not buying new cars with the high interest rates we have now, taking that depreciation hit, only to sell three years later. Also: > If you are not average, expect results that are not average. That goes both ways. I still have trouble believing BMW has 3x the reliability in the first three years than practically all the American manufacturers. > think a bit deeper than "X > Y so X = better" that's pretty much what the list is for.
  - Dah00n 3y ago
    Well, it is a list of new cars, but yes, I agree it isn't that useful. >I still have trouble believing BMW has 3x the reliability in the first three years than practically all the American manufacturers. I do not know it 3 times is the correct number, but I do not doubt that it is a significant difference. I'd also argue that if we had the graphs, we would be able to see it getting worse after Tesla became a success. >that's pretty much what the list is for. I have no idea what the list if for. IMO it is a mess and maybe even clickbait.
- tirant 3y ago
  It is not only how they are maintained, but also how they are driven. BMW's are sport enthusiast vehicles. They are probably used and abused and higher levels than typical Toyotas and Lexus. You won't see many Toyotas and Lexus in race tracks, however they are usually populated by all type of BMWs, specially M performance and full M models. So I expect that under normal usage, BMWs are even more reliable that the ranking shows.
everly 3y ago
I wouldnt exactly call 3rd and 9th "top of the list" The fact that Lexus/Toyota are actually at the top makes me trust it
piperswe 3y ago
But if you do maintain them in that certain way, they can be brilliantly reliable. Problem is, many people (especially in America) don't. And getting the proper fluids for them can be a pain in the ass in America, since BMW LL oil is basically impossible to get anywhere except dealerships and specialty websites. I'm surprised Mercedes is so low in the list. They've traditionally been one of the more reliable German brands, that's why they're used as taxis in many countries.
- taurath 3y ago
  Chrysler has had some of the least reliable for most of my entire lifetime and Mercedes shares a parent company and presumably a lot of parts with them.
  - wil421 3y ago
    Both of my WK2 Jeep grand Cherokee’s have been reliable and they share parts with the old MLs. The parts they share are pretty silly to consider reliability, control arms, 5-speed transmission (until 2014), and some other random parts with Mercedes stamped on it. Considering Chrysler transmissions were terrible I’m glad they used Benz then ZFs.
  - SandunGunn 3y ago
    Mercedes is owned by Daimler Chrysler (30 out of 30) by Stellantis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellantis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellantis) along with: Fiat, Alfa Romeo (unranked), Dodge (21) RAM (15) Jeep (26)
    - taurath 3y ago
      Whoa I totally messed that up! I didn’t even know that they dropped Chrysler in 2007 (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_Group https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_Group)
- numlock86 3y ago
  > I'm surprised Mercedes is so low in the list. They've traditionally been one of the more reliable German brands, that's why they're used as taxis in many countries. Oh, my sweet summer child. I can tell you still have fond memories of the pre-2010 Mercedes era ... Who's gonna tell him?
tirant 3y ago
Newer BMWs are some of the most reliable cars that you can buy. Minis and BMWs are essentially the same cars, just Minis are limited to the low segment, with less luxury features and smaller motors. That means that, as expected, the higher complexity of luxury segments and their big V8 or V12 engines have more chances of failing.
deleted 3y ago
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ycombinatrix 3y ago
spoken like someone that hasn't owned a BMW from the last 10 years
- winrid 3y ago
  did they stop using plastic guides for the timing chains yet? :)
wil421 3y ago
That’s completely not true at all. BMWs have come around in the past years. The 2000 e46 I had was as reliable as my 2002 4Runner. I replaced the same things at similar intervals, water pump, belt tensioner, wheel bearing, plugs, coils etc. BMWs B58 engines is so nice Toyota put it in a Supra.

by winrid 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

Dah00n 3y ago

Of couse you shouldn't just ignore it. What you should do is think a bit deeper than "X > Y so X = better". Included in the data is the fact that a BMW needs the maintenance it does, to rank where it ranks here, as its average owner maintain it as they do. The maintenance schedule and how the BMWs included in the statistics were maintained is likely different than on a Toyota, but following the maintenance schedule or not is up to you to decide. However, those who do not follow the maintenance schedule are included here as well as are those who service their BMW more than required. If you are not average, expect results that are not average. That goes both ways.

winrid 3y ago
I the 2nd point maybe I didn't get across well is more that the initial three years does not tell as much or are very useful. In 2023 people are not buying new cars with the high interest rates we have now, taking that depreciation hit, only to sell three years later. Also: > If you are not average, expect results that are not average. That goes both ways. I still have trouble believing BMW has 3x the reliability in the first three years than practically all the American manufacturers. > think a bit deeper than "X > Y so X = better" that's pretty much what the list is for.
- Dah00n 3y ago
  Well, it is a list of new cars, but yes, I agree it isn't that useful. >I still have trouble believing BMW has 3x the reliability in the first three years than practically all the American manufacturers. I do not know it 3 times is the correct number, but I do not doubt that it is a significant difference. I'd also argue that if we had the graphs, we would be able to see it getting worse after Tesla became a success. >that's pretty much what the list is for. I have no idea what the list if for. IMO it is a mess and maybe even clickbait.
tirant 3y ago
It is not only how they are maintained, but also how they are driven. BMW's are sport enthusiast vehicles. They are probably used and abused and higher levels than typical Toyotas and Lexus. You won't see many Toyotas and Lexus in race tracks, however they are usually populated by all type of BMWs, specially M performance and full M models. So I expect that under normal usage, BMWs are even more reliable that the ranking shows.

everly 3y ago

I wouldnt exactly call 3rd and 9th "top of the list" The fact that Lexus/Toyota are actually at the top makes me trust it

piperswe 3y ago

But if you do maintain them in that certain way, they can be brilliantly reliable. Problem is, many people (especially in America) don't. And getting the proper fluids for them can be a pain in the ass in America, since BMW LL oil is basically impossible to get anywhere except dealerships and specialty websites. I'm surprised Mercedes is so low in the list. They've traditionally been one of the more reliable German brands, that's why they're used as taxis in many countries.

taurath 3y ago
Chrysler has had some of the least reliable for most of my entire lifetime and Mercedes shares a parent company and presumably a lot of parts with them.
- wil421 3y ago
  Both of my WK2 Jeep grand Cherokee’s have been reliable and they share parts with the old MLs. The parts they share are pretty silly to consider reliability, control arms, 5-speed transmission (until 2014), and some other random parts with Mercedes stamped on it. Considering Chrysler transmissions were terrible I’m glad they used Benz then ZFs.
- SandunGunn 3y ago
  Mercedes is owned by Daimler Chrysler (30 out of 30) by Stellantis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellantis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellantis) along with: Fiat, Alfa Romeo (unranked), Dodge (21) RAM (15) Jeep (26)
  - taurath 3y ago
    Whoa I totally messed that up! I didn’t even know that they dropped Chrysler in 2007 (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_Group https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_Group)
numlock86 3y ago
> I'm surprised Mercedes is so low in the list. They've traditionally been one of the more reliable German brands, that's why they're used as taxis in many countries. Oh, my sweet summer child. I can tell you still have fond memories of the pre-2010 Mercedes era ... Who's gonna tell him?

tirant 3y ago

Newer BMWs are some of the most reliable cars that you can buy. Minis and BMWs are essentially the same cars, just Minis are limited to the low segment, with less luxury features and smaller motors. That means that, as expected, the higher complexity of luxury segments and their big V8 or V12 engines have more chances of failing.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

ycombinatrix 3y ago

spoken like someone that hasn't owned a BMW from the last 10 years

winrid 3y ago
did they stop using plastic guides for the timing chains yet? :)

wil421 3y ago

That’s completely not true at all. BMWs have come around in the past years. The 2000 e46 I had was as reliable as my 2002 4Runner. I replaced the same things at similar intervals, water pump, belt tensioner, wheel bearing, plugs, coils etc. BMWs B58 engines is so nice Toyota put it in a Supra.