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Keep the 4Runner and buy something new for a family hauler. New vehicles are much safer from a structural standpoint than older ones. Modern high strength stee

by AmVess 3y ago

Keep the 4Runner and buy something new for a family hauler. New vehicles are much safer from a structural standpoint than older ones. Modern high strength steels form the safety cage of the vehicle, and greatly reduce the risk of injury in offset frontal impacts, side impacts, and rear impacts. And then you have the multitudes of air bags. Finally, the various electronic gizmos that further reduce risk of injury. The presence of high strength steels alone warrants a new vehicle purchase. Vehicles are disposable, people are not.

gjsman-1000 3y ago
> Finally, the various electronic gizmos that further reduce risk of injury. Combined with the various electronic gizmos and infotainment systems that further increase the risk of injury. :)
saulrh 3y ago
To expand... - Improved FEM makes modern crumple zones deeper and smoother - Heavy use of composites dramatically improve the raw amount of energy absorbed by the car instead of the passengers - Better manufacturing methods mean parts can be shaped/placed to be less likely to enter the cabin - Better placement of more airbags means you're more likely to hit something soft - Better seats and better placements of better seat belts means you're less likely to snap something due to whiplash - Better brakes and steering geometry reduces your chance of losing control - Better brakes and steering geometry improves your ability to avoid other vehicles - Electronic stability control _massively_ reduces chances of rollovers - Electronic stability control _massively_ improves your ability to dodge other cars in emergency maneuvers - Electronic stability control _massively_ improves your ability to handle bumps and potholes and waves and black ice and other disruptions - Electronic stability control _massively_ improves the car's ability to go where you point the wheels regardless of speed or condition Seriously, especially if you're driving a truck or SUV, you _need_ electronic stability control. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_stability_control https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_stability_control: > According to the U.S. National Highway Traffic > Safety Administration and the Insurance > Institute for Highway Safety in 2004 and 2006 > respectively, one-third of fatal accidents > could be prevented by the use of the technology > Additionally, SUVs with stability control are > involved in 67% fewer accidents than SUVs > without the system > The IIHS study concluded that ESC reduces > the likelihood of all fatal crashes by > 43%, fatal single-vehicle crashes by 56%, and > fatal single-vehicle rollovers by 77–80%. > ESC is described as the most important advance > in auto safety Not "the most important since seat belts", not "the most important since air bags", not "the most important current advance". Electronic stability control is THE most important safety feature in modern automotive vehicles, the single biggest factor in whether you will die because you got in a car _period_, more than air bags, more than seat belts, more than crumple zones, more than _headlights_ or _tire compounds_ or _safety glass_. Preventing an accident entirely is better than any mitigation and ESC is incredibly good at preventing a huge class of accidents. And those numbers are from 2005-ish. Modern active rollover prevention and traction control systems and anti-understeer/oversteer controls are _even better_.
- whartung 3y ago
  Electronic stability control is pure wizardry. It’s useful to dig up some videos on YouTube watching it in action, or, even better, when it’s not in action. Look up the “Moose maneuver”.
- dekhn 3y ago
  I've disabled ESC and it's pretty amazing how much of a difference it makes in my car. But I can still make it go crazy by driving over a small bump while turning and accelerating (like, out of a driveway onto a busy street)
  - VectorLock 3y ago
    You're slipping your wheels, that 'going crazy' is the ESC trying to regain traction.
- mike_hock 3y ago
  I'm guessing you sell ESC systems.
  - saulrh 3y ago
    Not even slightly. I wouldn't touch a human-safety-critical system like that if you paid me twice what I'm currently making. No, I just would really like it if people didn't die in car accidents, I think that modern controls theory is Really Neat, and I'm entirely willing to evangelize for modern safety technology when it has the potential to prevent ONE THIRD of all deaths in automotive accidents in the US.
    - fsckboy 3y ago
      I remember when ABS braking was introduced, with all the fanfare of your enthusiasm. ABS braking was supposed to reduce accidents but actual statistics said it didn't. It made people write articles that said "it's almost as if humans have a built-in riskiness gauge, and as we make cars safer, they drive more recklessly" (and not "wreck"lessly haha). I just checked wikipedia and there is a paucity of info showing actual effectiveness, and some showing what I just mentioned. It's a little suspicious that there is not overwhelmingly positive data https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-lock_braking_system#Effectiveness https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-lock_braking_system#Effec...
Roark66 3y ago
>New vehicles are much safer from a structural standpoint than older ones. Perhaps if you compare the same model 15 years ago and now that is true, but people rarely buy the same model used as they would new. At least among my aquitances it is common to consider a higher class used car, or a much cheaper lower class new car. I doubt a 6 years old lexus rx350 is less safe than 2023 Toyota Yaris for example. Two cars of comparable price around here in Central EU.
- w0m 3y ago
  Depends on the new safety tech; it often comes into the luxury brands and works it's way down. 6 years could be long enough for something significant to be in the Yaris.
- usefulcat 3y ago
  > I doubt a 6 years old lexus rx350 is less safe than 2023 Toyota Yaris for example. Ok, but those two vehicles are significantly different sizes regardless of year, are they not? And that’s usually very relevant where safety is concerned.
  - fsckboy 3y ago
    that may be true of these two cars, but I don't think he was cherry-picking those just to make his general argument. are you making the general argument that this larger vs smaller car issue will always be the difference? what happens to the difference in safety improvements over time, always overshadowed by size in the used market?
    - usefulcat 3y ago
      My point was that, depending on the type of collision, a 6 year old rx350 could easily be a lot safer than a Yaris due its much larger size. Maybe there would be less of a difference in a single vehicle collision, but AIUI in a multi vehicle collision size (and relative height) usually matters a lot. So it didn't seem to make their point very well.
- 3y ago
kube-system 3y ago
> The presence of high strength steels alone warrants a new vehicle purchase. Vehicles are disposable, people are not. Agreed. Although the steels used for safety critical parts of new vehicles are now "ultra-high-strength steels", with tensile strengths exceeding a gigapascal. These can be 4x stronger than "high strength steel", and 6x stronger than steel from the "good ol' days" e.g.: https://cdn-fastly.thetruthaboutcars.com/media/2022/07/19/9219924/ttac-s-long-term-test-2015-honda-fit-the-bell-tolls-at-7-987-miles.jpg?size=720x845&nocrop=1 https://cdn-fastly.thetruthaboutcars.com/media/2022/07/19/92...

by AmVess 3y ago

gjsman-1000 3y ago

> Finally, the various electronic gizmos that further reduce risk of injury. Combined with the various electronic gizmos and infotainment systems that further increase the risk of injury. :)

saulrh 3y ago

To expand... - Improved FEM makes modern crumple zones deeper and smoother - Heavy use of composites dramatically improve the raw amount of energy absorbed by the car instead of the passengers - Better manufacturing methods mean parts can be shaped/placed to be less likely to enter the cabin - Better placement of more airbags means you're more likely to hit something soft - Better seats and better placements of better seat belts means you're less likely to snap something due to whiplash - Better brakes and steering geometry reduces your chance of losing control - Better brakes and steering geometry improves your ability to avoid other vehicles - Electronic stability control _massively_ reduces chances of rollovers - Electronic stability control _massively_ improves your ability to dodge other cars in emergency maneuvers - Electronic stability control _massively_ improves your ability to handle bumps and potholes and waves and black ice and other disruptions - Electronic stability control _massively_ improves the car's ability to go where you point the wheels regardless of speed or condition Seriously, especially if you're driving a truck or SUV, you _need_ electronic stability control. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_stability_control https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_stability_control: > According to the U.S. National Highway Traffic > Safety Administration and the Insurance > Institute for Highway Safety in 2004 and 2006 > respectively, one-third of fatal accidents > could be prevented by the use of the technology > Additionally, SUVs with stability control are > involved in 67% fewer accidents than SUVs > without the system > The IIHS study concluded that ESC reduces > the likelihood of all fatal crashes by > 43%, fatal single-vehicle crashes by 56%, and > fatal single-vehicle rollovers by 77–80%. > ESC is described as the most important advance > in auto safety Not "the most important since seat belts", not "the most important since air bags", not "the most important current advance". Electronic stability control is THE most important safety feature in modern automotive vehicles, the single biggest factor in whether you will die because you got in a car _period_, more than air bags, more than seat belts, more than crumple zones, more than _headlights_ or _tire compounds_ or _safety glass_. Preventing an accident entirely is better than any mitigation and ESC is incredibly good at preventing a huge class of accidents. And those numbers are from 2005-ish. Modern active rollover prevention and traction control systems and anti-understeer/oversteer controls are _even better_.

whartung 3y ago
Electronic stability control is pure wizardry. It’s useful to dig up some videos on YouTube watching it in action, or, even better, when it’s not in action. Look up the “Moose maneuver”.
dekhn 3y ago
I've disabled ESC and it's pretty amazing how much of a difference it makes in my car. But I can still make it go crazy by driving over a small bump while turning and accelerating (like, out of a driveway onto a busy street)
- VectorLock 3y ago
  You're slipping your wheels, that 'going crazy' is the ESC trying to regain traction.
mike_hock 3y ago
I'm guessing you sell ESC systems.
- saulrh 3y ago
  Not even slightly. I wouldn't touch a human-safety-critical system like that if you paid me twice what I'm currently making. No, I just would really like it if people didn't die in car accidents, I think that modern controls theory is Really Neat, and I'm entirely willing to evangelize for modern safety technology when it has the potential to prevent ONE THIRD of all deaths in automotive accidents in the US.
  - fsckboy 3y ago
    I remember when ABS braking was introduced, with all the fanfare of your enthusiasm. ABS braking was supposed to reduce accidents but actual statistics said it didn't. It made people write articles that said "it's almost as if humans have a built-in riskiness gauge, and as we make cars safer, they drive more recklessly" (and not "wreck"lessly haha). I just checked wikipedia and there is a paucity of info showing actual effectiveness, and some showing what I just mentioned. It's a little suspicious that there is not overwhelmingly positive data https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-lock_braking_system#Effectiveness https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-lock_braking_system#Effec...

Roark66 3y ago

>New vehicles are much safer from a structural standpoint than older ones. Perhaps if you compare the same model 15 years ago and now that is true, but people rarely buy the same model used as they would new. At least among my aquitances it is common to consider a higher class used car, or a much cheaper lower class new car. I doubt a 6 years old lexus rx350 is less safe than 2023 Toyota Yaris for example. Two cars of comparable price around here in Central EU.

w0m 3y ago
Depends on the new safety tech; it often comes into the luxury brands and works it's way down. 6 years could be long enough for something significant to be in the Yaris.
usefulcat 3y ago
> I doubt a 6 years old lexus rx350 is less safe than 2023 Toyota Yaris for example. Ok, but those two vehicles are significantly different sizes regardless of year, are they not? And that’s usually very relevant where safety is concerned.
- fsckboy 3y ago
  that may be true of these two cars, but I don't think he was cherry-picking those just to make his general argument. are you making the general argument that this larger vs smaller car issue will always be the difference? what happens to the difference in safety improvements over time, always overshadowed by size in the used market?
  - usefulcat 3y ago
    My point was that, depending on the type of collision, a 6 year old rx350 could easily be a lot safer than a Yaris due its much larger size. Maybe there would be less of a difference in a single vehicle collision, but AIUI in a multi vehicle collision size (and relative height) usually matters a lot. So it didn't seem to make their point very well.
3y ago

kube-system 3y ago

> The presence of high strength steels alone warrants a new vehicle purchase. Vehicles are disposable, people are not. Agreed. Although the steels used for safety critical parts of new vehicles are now "ultra-high-strength steels", with tensile strengths exceeding a gigapascal. These can be 4x stronger than "high strength steel", and 6x stronger than steel from the "good ol' days" e.g.: https://cdn-fastly.thetruthaboutcars.com/media/2022/07/19/9219924/ttac-s-long-term-test-2015-honda-fit-the-bell-tolls-at-7-987-miles.jpg?size=720x845&nocrop=1 https://cdn-fastly.thetruthaboutcars.com/media/2022/07/19/92...