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It's incredible how the Japanese carmakers were able to perfect the auto manufacturing process and then proceed to hold that advantage for what, 30+ years now?

It's incredible how the Japanese carmakers were able to perfect the auto manufacturing process and then proceed to hold that advantage for what, 30+ years now? It's not a secret how they did it, it's been studied to death, every manner of technology/expertise/management transfer has been tried, and still no one comes quite close enough to threaten their position.

bena 3y ago
I think it's just commitment to the process at this point. The hard bit isn't the process per se, it's executing the process when it would otherwise be easier not to.
lotsofpulp 3y ago
I assume it’s because the other nations’ automakers would rather compete along other lines. The Japanese already locked onto reliability/quality, so rather than try to fight them on something they are already good at, they try to optimize for style/status/performance/patriotism/etc.
saiya-jin 3y ago
Maybe they are too stubborn to succumb to 'the race to the bottom' cost (and correspondingly quality) wise, since these things do bite back after longer time than current year exec bonuses materialize. Or maybe they have different approach to beta testing, see say Zelda come out basically flawless and how say Betshesda or many others can deliver their stuff (beta testing months after release with fixes have 1000+ rather basic items).
ajross 3y ago
To be fair, exactly that level of investment in process and conservatism around change is arguably what led them all (literally every single Japanese manufacturer) to miss the boat on EVs. Basically, getting to your last sentence: you have the wrong threat model. Making "cars better" is great if what a "car" is doesn't change. But what the market wants is "better cars".
- kspacewalk2 3y ago
  I'd hold off on declaring that the EV boat has departed. It remains to be seen at what level EV uptake will plateau, without major advances in battery tech and EV practicality. Coming from a rather nippy Canadian city which bought a bunch of electric buses, fucked up badly[0] and probably made purchasing more electric buses an untenable proposition for (conservatively) 5-7 years, and having heard from multiple EV owners about the less glamorous aspects of EV ownership in Canada (charging cost/duration/convenience, battery performance in cold weather, skyrocketing insurance and repair costs)... The boat, far from being missed, is still in the dry dock. [0] https://edmontonjournal.com/news/local-news/more-than-half-of-edmontons-60-million-electric-bus-fleet-not-roadworthy https://edmontonjournal.com/news/local-news/more-than-half-o...
  - ajross 3y ago
    Not interested in EV flamery. My point was economic: clearly EVs are a very large new market segment, and Japanese brands aren't competing there at all. That's bad, if your business is to sell cars. It's really bad if you have a sub-brand, like "Hybrids", which has been completely decimated by the (again very real, even if you don't think anyone in Edmonton should buy them) move to electric devices in the market. Basically: 8 years ago Toyota owned the "ecologically sensitive car buyer" market. And now you might as well flush the Prius brand in the toilet, no one wants them and selling them as "green" relative to a Tesla is a joke.
    - ericmay 3y ago
      I think I’m going with this as a car owner and buyer I would be very reluctant to switch back from an EV. It’s just for me so much nicer and more convenient. I have a few friends who share the same sentiment. It’s a category change and the Japanese automakers (to which I have great affinity) aren’t in the category so there’s nothing for me to buy from them.
    - nradov 3y ago
      Hybrid vehicle sales continue to grow. They have hardly been "decimated".
WillAdams 3y ago
The first time the U.S. tried to study this, they asked for a sample of parts, specifying a precision range, noting that it was acceptable for up to 10% of the parts to be at the extremes of said range. The Japanese company sent them 3 bags of parts noting: The bag with the full quantity is made to match the provided blueprint, the other two bags contain 1/10th as many parts which are either larger or smaller as requested. May we ask what the purpose of these other parts is? When they started measuring the parts, they were all identical --- part-way through, they decided that their micrometer must be broken and sent for another --- it revealed that all parts where _exactly_ the right size per the specifications of the drawing.
- asalahli 3y ago
  I've heard this story ever since I was a kid, but never been able to find a credible source. I'm compelled to believe it's no more than a story, at this point.
  - WillAdams 3y ago
    It was in an audiobook narrated by Pat Morita that I heard it. The context was auto transmissions --- it was found that one source of premature failures was when all parts in a transmission were at the extreme of too small or too large --- on average, the large/small would balance out, but when it didn't that was when there were early (and catastrophic) failures.
gridder 3y ago
It’s thanks to their culture and mentality. You cannot replicate that.
- pictureofabear 3y ago
  Yes... a lot of people (Americans I guess since I'm American and that's where my anecdotal evidence comes from) think the Japanese are very efficient. They might be in somethings, but their true love is perfection. They love doing things right. Big things, little things... it's a country-wide obsession.
  - pezezin 3y ago
    I live in Japan and let me tell you that the Japanese being perfectionists is also a myth. What Japanese people are really good at is following instructions and procedures, to the point that you see their minds crashing when something goes out of script. Now, whether the procedure makes sense and will result in a good outcome or not is a completely different matter...
    - pictureofabear 3y ago
      hmmm.. I think we're both right here. I lived in a Japan for several years and saw a similar thing that you're pointing out, but I don't think the obsession with perfectionism is a myth.
- Racing0461 3y ago
  <bad timing to post this given the current thing> but isreal seems to match japan's singlethreadedness in a single area. Some very high tech startups came out of isreal (waze etc) especially along the maps/routing domain.
dclowd9901 3y ago
Because it requires a populace who culturally fixates on quality. It doesn’t mean a thing to have a “stop everything” lever if your workforce doesn’t want to pull it because they don’t give a flying fuck if they ship a shoddy car. It’s a story told again and again with tons of Japanese products.
_yb2s 3y ago
I just don't like any model of Japanese cars... they don't drive, look, or feel as good as a high end European car. But man do I wish European cars were half as reliable as Japanese cars. Driving European cars is a hobby for me, but spending every weekend to keep them working gets old sometimes. What's especially annoying is that the high end European cars are ostensibly better made... much more expensive materials, more attention to detail (better rustproofing, cable organization, etc.). They probably actually last longer on average if you maintain them well, but they just have unexpected parts failures extremely often.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- Dah00n 3y ago
  Looking at how big a problem with rust Mercedes have I'm not sure the "better rust proofing" is based in reality. Definitely doubt it when compared to a Toyota.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - _yb2s 3y ago
    Mercedes are not, but many high end European cars dip galvanize the entire chassis, making them virtually rustproof. Volvo started doing this on the 700 series in the 80s and those cars are still driving around in the rust belt fully functional 40 years later! VW, Audi, and Porsche also fully galvanized a lot of cars, but you need to research to figure out what specific years and models. Mercedes was a global leader in quality until about the early 90s, but the quality really dropped off, and is markedly lower than other German cars nowadays. Drive and inspect an expensive early 2000s Mercedes, and then a cheap VW Jetta from the same time period… there is no doubt about it, the cheap VW is a higher quality car in every way. Every bolt and fastener is high grade steel, plated with a corrosion preventative , and then also coated with threadlocker that also protects from corrosion. VW then cut quality also around 2011 or so. So it’s not really cut and dry, you have to look at how each specific car was actually made.

bena 3y ago

I think it's just commitment to the process at this point. The hard bit isn't the process per se, it's executing the process when it would otherwise be easier not to.

lotsofpulp 3y ago

I assume it’s because the other nations’ automakers would rather compete along other lines. The Japanese already locked onto reliability/quality, so rather than try to fight them on something they are already good at, they try to optimize for style/status/performance/patriotism/etc.

saiya-jin 3y ago

Maybe they are too stubborn to succumb to 'the race to the bottom' cost (and correspondingly quality) wise, since these things do bite back after longer time than current year exec bonuses materialize. Or maybe they have different approach to beta testing, see say Zelda come out basically flawless and how say Betshesda or many others can deliver their stuff (beta testing months after release with fixes have 1000+ rather basic items).

ajross 3y ago

To be fair, exactly that level of investment in process and conservatism around change is arguably what led them all (literally every single Japanese manufacturer) to miss the boat on EVs. Basically, getting to your last sentence: you have the wrong threat model. Making "cars better" is great if what a "car" is doesn't change. But what the market wants is "better cars".

kspacewalk2 3y ago
I'd hold off on declaring that the EV boat has departed. It remains to be seen at what level EV uptake will plateau, without major advances in battery tech and EV practicality. Coming from a rather nippy Canadian city which bought a bunch of electric buses, fucked up badly[0] and probably made purchasing more electric buses an untenable proposition for (conservatively) 5-7 years, and having heard from multiple EV owners about the less glamorous aspects of EV ownership in Canada (charging cost/duration/convenience, battery performance in cold weather, skyrocketing insurance and repair costs)... The boat, far from being missed, is still in the dry dock. [0] https://edmontonjournal.com/news/local-news/more-than-half-of-edmontons-60-million-electric-bus-fleet-not-roadworthy https://edmontonjournal.com/news/local-news/more-than-half-o...
- ajross 3y ago
  Not interested in EV flamery. My point was economic: clearly EVs are a very large new market segment, and Japanese brands aren't competing there at all. That's bad, if your business is to sell cars. It's really bad if you have a sub-brand, like "Hybrids", which has been completely decimated by the (again very real, even if you don't think anyone in Edmonton should buy them) move to electric devices in the market. Basically: 8 years ago Toyota owned the "ecologically sensitive car buyer" market. And now you might as well flush the Prius brand in the toilet, no one wants them and selling them as "green" relative to a Tesla is a joke.
  - ericmay 3y ago
    I think I’m going with this as a car owner and buyer I would be very reluctant to switch back from an EV. It’s just for me so much nicer and more convenient. I have a few friends who share the same sentiment. It’s a category change and the Japanese automakers (to which I have great affinity) aren’t in the category so there’s nothing for me to buy from them.
  - nradov 3y ago
    Hybrid vehicle sales continue to grow. They have hardly been "decimated".

WillAdams 3y ago

The first time the U.S. tried to study this, they asked for a sample of parts, specifying a precision range, noting that it was acceptable for up to 10% of the parts to be at the extremes of said range. The Japanese company sent them 3 bags of parts noting: The bag with the full quantity is made to match the provided blueprint, the other two bags contain 1/10th as many parts which are either larger or smaller as requested. May we ask what the purpose of these other parts is? When they started measuring the parts, they were all identical --- part-way through, they decided that their micrometer must be broken and sent for another --- it revealed that all parts where _exactly_ the right size per the specifications of the drawing.

asalahli 3y ago
I've heard this story ever since I was a kid, but never been able to find a credible source. I'm compelled to believe it's no more than a story, at this point.
- WillAdams 3y ago
  It was in an audiobook narrated by Pat Morita that I heard it. The context was auto transmissions --- it was found that one source of premature failures was when all parts in a transmission were at the extreme of too small or too large --- on average, the large/small would balance out, but when it didn't that was when there were early (and catastrophic) failures.

gridder 3y ago

It’s thanks to their culture and mentality. You cannot replicate that.

pictureofabear 3y ago
Yes... a lot of people (Americans I guess since I'm American and that's where my anecdotal evidence comes from) think the Japanese are very efficient. They might be in somethings, but their true love is perfection. They love doing things right. Big things, little things... it's a country-wide obsession.
- pezezin 3y ago
  I live in Japan and let me tell you that the Japanese being perfectionists is also a myth. What Japanese people are really good at is following instructions and procedures, to the point that you see their minds crashing when something goes out of script. Now, whether the procedure makes sense and will result in a good outcome or not is a completely different matter...
  - pictureofabear 3y ago
    hmmm.. I think we're both right here. I lived in a Japan for several years and saw a similar thing that you're pointing out, but I don't think the obsession with perfectionism is a myth.
Racing0461 3y ago
<bad timing to post this given the current thing> but isreal seems to match japan's singlethreadedness in a single area. Some very high tech startups came out of isreal (waze etc) especially along the maps/routing domain.

dclowd9901 3y ago

Because it requires a populace who culturally fixates on quality. It doesn’t mean a thing to have a “stop everything” lever if your workforce doesn’t want to pull it because they don’t give a flying fuck if they ship a shoddy car. It’s a story told again and again with tons of Japanese products.

_yb2s 3y ago

I just don't like any model of Japanese cars... they don't drive, look, or feel as good as a high end European car. But man do I wish European cars were half as reliable as Japanese cars. Driving European cars is a hobby for me, but spending every weekend to keep them working gets old sometimes. What's especially annoying is that the high end European cars are ostensibly better made... much more expensive materials, more attention to detail (better rustproofing, cable organization, etc.). They probably actually last longer on average if you maintain them well, but they just have unexpected parts failures extremely often.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
Dah00n 3y ago
Looking at how big a problem with rust Mercedes have I'm not sure the "better rust proofing" is based in reality. Definitely doubt it when compared to a Toyota.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- _yb2s 3y ago
  Mercedes are not, but many high end European cars dip galvanize the entire chassis, making them virtually rustproof. Volvo started doing this on the 700 series in the 80s and those cars are still driving around in the rust belt fully functional 40 years later! VW, Audi, and Porsche also fully galvanized a lot of cars, but you need to research to figure out what specific years and models. Mercedes was a global leader in quality until about the early 90s, but the quality really dropped off, and is markedly lower than other German cars nowadays. Drive and inspect an expensive early 2000s Mercedes, and then a cheap VW Jetta from the same time period… there is no doubt about it, the cheap VW is a higher quality car in every way. Every bolt and fastener is high grade steel, plated with a corrosion preventative , and then also coated with threadlocker that also protects from corrosion. VW then cut quality also around 2011 or so. So it’s not really cut and dry, you have to look at how each specific car was actually made.