7 ms·

Car dealers say they can't sell EVs, tell Biden to slow their rollout

22 points by no_wizard 3y ago

harryquach 3y ago
EVs are expensive, so it's not surprising.
foxyv 3y ago
I honestly don't trust car dealers. Most of them are scammers trying to bait and switch, inflate prices, sell worthless warranties/upgrades, and generally screw everyone to the best of their abilities. People order cars and have to buy through them, so the dealer takes the car and sells it to someone else for more. Then, when you actually get the car, if it breaks down they will charge you for in-warranty repairs. They were the worst with EVs and Hybrids. In the meantime, with work from home, a lot of people are realizing they don't need a car. Everyone else's car payment is going to doubled grocery prices and doubled rents. Also, good luck buying anything affordable, because the lots are filled with F-150s and SUVs.
- downrightmike 3y ago
  Good luck finding a sedan for less than $30k, manufacturers are only making expensive cars if they make any. They seem to think the market wants those FX50's or SUVs, but that's because they can charge a lot more for them. Well, they can charge that, but as we see, the vehicles just sit in lots at this point.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    >Good luck finding a sedan for less than $30k, manufacturers are only making expensive cars if they make any. There's still affordable car makers in the west. Meet the Dacia Duster 2024 Hybrid SUV, starting at 20K, up to 30K fully loaded (Europe only). Probably gonna sell like hotcakes. https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/dacia-duster https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/dacia-duster
    - downrightmike 3y ago
      We're talking about America
  - itsyaboi 3y ago
    A 2024 toyota corolla is ~$22k.
  - foxyv 3y ago
    Another thing that gets me is the insurance. The videos of Teslas spying on drivers and reporting hard acceleration while raising people's rates. The $500/month insurance costs for every other insurance provider. All because the car has to be a way-too-fast status symbol. Meanwhile people just want to get to work/school/home without crashing into a tree or spending their kid's college savings account on insurance.
    - instagib 3y ago
      That is on Tesla’s own insurance program. https://insideevs.com/news/698182/tesla-insurance-track-day-premiums/ https://insideevs.com/news/698182/tesla-insurance-track-day-... It’s the normal taddle tail addon plugs into your obd2 port other insurances have to reduce your rates if you drive 4am-10pm, less than 85, and don’t hard brake or rates go up.
- mindslight 3y ago
  I've been in need of a truck for the past several years. And due to life circumstances, I would likely have just paid the new vehicle premium. But based on everything I've been hearing about prices, availability, and dealer games, I haven't even been looking. When the rampant price inflation has subsided and salespeople are back to choosing whether to splurge on the premium can of dogfood, then perhaps I'll think about it. Of course by the time this happens I'll have more bandwidth for maintenance, and with the unsafe touchscreens and antagonistic surveillance systems they're cramming into new vehicles, I'll probably just end up with an older model.
  - foxyv 3y ago
    Chevy makes some fairly decent no-BS trucks I hear. Stuff with knobs and buttons instead of touch screens and driver cameras.
ChoGGi 3y ago
Cheaper EVs would help, but teaching st/dealerships that their service bay isn't going to be their main profit centre will be a long road.
- smileysteve 3y ago
  This is going to be a key transition factor; Dealerships (maintenance and new sales), Oil/Exhaust/Brake, and Gas stations will decimated -- as car owners no longer have a system that neglect (oil, coolant, high temp exhaust, high temp seals and sensors) causes an end of life event. At most, battery packs will be neglected when cars sit, but vehicles today with a the sensors and systems that run lithium ion batteries safely will reduce many of the impacts of neglect. But mostly new sales, even used market sales; the interior will be the primary part of a vehicle that ages (ignoring the effect of salt on roads)
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    EVs still use oil and coolant though just that the oil never needs changing. And EVs still have issues needing you to go to the service. My mate had to take his ID.3 to the service 3 times due to SW issues. EVs aren't immune from issues.
    - smileysteve 3y ago
      Software (plugging in a cable and a computer) and other 100k+ mile (suspension) if not lifetime (battery coolant or oil, airbag recall) seem seldom and low rate activities not enough to keep a dealership service department running. Tesla is often solving these with mobile mechanics and regional service centers.
      - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
        People only focus on the ICE engine itself as being the need to go to the service, but there's other shit that can go wrong in a car, no matter if it's ICE or EV, like window lifters, locks, tailgate, bumper changes, door changes, mirrors, suspension, heated $WHATEVER, one of the dozens of ECUs or sensors getting faulty, plus anything damaged from the usual fender bender or curb mounting. You'll still need to go to a service for those. And ICE cars will not magically disappear overnight off the roads though. Service centers still have at least 20+ years of work for them of ICE + EV combined. It should be enough to plan your business accordingly like selling it or pivoting to something else if you think the EV future is too low margin for that business.
downrightmike 3y ago
We should EV even harder
kcb 3y ago
People don't want $60k+ Fords and Chevys.
- NewJazz 3y ago
  The Mach E is 43k MSRP. The lightning is 50k. The Bolt is less.
  - instagib 3y ago
    Lightning: Price Detail Base MSRP: S1 $49,995 + Destination: S17 $1,995 = Total MSRP: S16 $51,990 = Est. Net Price: S5 $51,990
    - busterarm 3y ago
      There is exactly _one_ of those Lightning Pro models at $51,990 within 100 miles of me in Ford's dealer network. The XLTs are a bit better with about a half-dozen or so at the $55,990, also within 100 miles. Most of the Lightning inventory is loaded and far above those base model prices. We're not even talking $60k, we're talking $75-90k...For an F-150 and today's interest rates...
      - NewJazz 3y ago
        Anything above 80k is not eligible for the truck subsidy.
        busterarm 3y ago
        The people buying new luxury trucks are already getting cut off from the truck subsidy anyway because their AGIs are too high.
  - stewarts 3y ago
    Every Mach-E or F-150 Lightning in my area is minimum 70k. Packages and markups run away from base MSRP very quickly.
vannevar 3y ago
They might be telling that to the administration, but the problem is apparently not so severe as to get them to drop their prices. I'll believe them when I see deep dealer discounts on EVs.
toss1 3y ago
Key quote: >> "And then not only are EVs more expensive, but their own salespeople are untrained. They don't even know how to answer most of the questions they get. A lot of them have 100–200 percent turnover of their sales staff in a given year," Reigersman told me. IOW, the dealerships only want to sell what is easy. They do not want to invest in their people to learn how to sell the cars. They all grumble a bit when the manufacturers require $$Millions in capital investment to sell & service their cars, but are now balking at expense of training their people. It is far past time to kill requirements that cars cannot be sold direct. If the dealership cannot or will not sell the EVs, then the companies should be able to route around dealers. I'd bet we'll suddenly find that their salespeople are all trained up and selling EVs like hotcakes after that.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  > They don't even know how to answer most of the questions they get. Do people actually believe anything a car salesman says anyway?
  - toss1 3y ago
    >>Do people actually believe anything a car salesman says anyway? Used car? Very little New car? I've found a few good ones, and much of what they need to say is verifiable (e.g., in the specs in a brochure / official website). I think the point was that customers can't even get basic info out of these people, and they aren't even offering their usual level of encouragement to buy. I.e., the car sales people (and the managers failing to provide training) are not doing their jobs. If they don't want to do their jobs, then the companies should be able to route around them.
takumo 3y ago
It's true, car dealers "can't sell" EVs. Not because people don't want EVs, but because dealers either don't want to sell them, or don't know how to sell them. I've owned 3 EVs since 2016 and I've been to franchise dealerships each time. I've been to dealerships both with and without dedicated or specially trained EV sales reps. Sales reps who've not had any specific training on selling EVs, working in dealerships with no dedicated EV showroom space are _terrible_ at selling EVs IME. At best they're disinterested in making a sale, at worst they actively discourage you with all the common EV related FUD. Showrooms with dedicated space to showcase EV product offerings, information about EVs and which have marketing material actively incentivising the benefits of an EV, also have sales reps who are knowledgeable, helpful, and actively seeking to close a sale.
- hitpointdrew 3y ago
  I don’t want an EV. EV’s will never be a viable option until they are better in every facet than a combustion engine. The charging is cumbersome and much longer than filling a gas tank, hard pass. I would buy a combustion engine car, even if it was more expensive, for this reason alone.
  - busterarm 3y ago
    Californians don't realize that in most of the rest of the country, the infrastructure still isn't there. There's a reason car sales in NYC are still sub-1% EVs.
    - JCharante 3y ago
      who is driving more than 200 miles per day??
      - busterarm 3y ago
        That's the wrong way to look at it. Regardless of how much you're driving, most folks in dense urban non-Californian areas are getting at best a Level 2 charge. Who has the time to sit around or park their car for an hour for every 20 miles they drive? If you take NYC for example, EV parking spaces are big bucks and for the few available public infrastructure places, most of the spots are being occupied full time by city parks department vehicles that rarely if ever leave the charger. As far as taking your question literally, you should talk to people in the midwest more -- I know lots of folks in the Dakotas and Wyoming with crazy schedules and 4hr commutes because that's literally the closest work.
davidf18 3y ago
[dead]
oldpersonintx 3y ago
[dead]
givemeethekeys 3y ago
Why would I buy an inferior EV from a dealer when I can buy a better one directly from Tesla?
LUmBULtERA 3y ago
Don't even get me started on how awful dealerships are. I test drove an Ioniq 5, and the vehicle itself was pretty decent. But then when I ask what the out-the-door price is and they all went on the "let's go inside", sit me down, ask for every piece of personal information, then make me wait even longer and tell me they need to go to talk to a manager to get a f'ing price. Tesla is much better than that, but their competition in the U.S. is total shit so I don't think they're even trying to compete as hard here as in, e.g., China.
- AnimalMuppet 3y ago
  Where I am, at least part of the reason for that is that the sales tax varies by county - not county of the dealer, but county of the buyer, which I think is kind of crazy. (Yes, it makes it so that the dealers don't all cluster just over the line in the county with the lowest sales tax. Still...) So if you want the actual price (and thereby to avoid the "we told you $X, but it's actually $X+Y" mess that makes dealers look like slimy crooks), then they need enough information to tell you the actual price. You want an estimate? They might give you one, with some amount of uncertainty. You want an accurate number? You have to give them every single bit of information that affects the price.
  - LUmBULtERA 3y ago
    It's easy enough for them to say $X plus sales tax for your county. The sales tax is easy to calculate for anyone, it's the $X that matters.
pjkundert 3y ago
Crappy EVs sold by sleazy salesmen aren’t selling?
JCharante 3y ago
> Today, the supply of unsold BEVs is surging, as they are not selling nearly as fast as they are arriving at our dealerships—even with deep price cuts, manufacturer incentives, and generous government incentives. have they tried improving the quality of the cars?
yumraj 3y ago
Personally, I would love an EV, in CA. Problem, currently I can’t get solar (townhome, old roof, HOA). And without solar, with PG&E prices which keep going up, I’m not really sure EVs make a lot of sense given their cost and the fact I’ll have to spend $5-$10K (not exactly sure) to install the 240V charger. One of our cars is a plug in hybrid, so with 110V overnight charging for many trips and gas range for longer trips we get the best of both. Our next car might also be a plug-in or a hybrid. EV, I just don’t see a good option ( sorry, FWIW, not going to consider a Tesla due to Musk)
- UnFleshedOne 3y ago
  If you already have a plugin hybrid and a good portion of your trips is under its EV range, why would you need an EV anyway?
  - yumraj 3y ago
    Yes, I feel, may not be correct, that plug-in hybrids are a little underrated. Most have very short ranges, I wish the range could be longer. Rav-4 has the best range that I know of, but they are hard to find and with the newer tax credits hard to justify, as they are not built in the US they don’t qualify for tax credits. OTOH, I hate oil changes, so that is my personal reason to go full EV since technically they require less routine maintenance as they are simpler.
- NewJazz 3y ago
  I mean you'll have to do the math, but if the income based payment models go through, marginal kWh will be noticeably cheaper.
  - yumraj 3y ago
    Actually I think it’s going to increase the total for most average income and above folks.. But you do make an interesting point, that marginal might be lower which may change the math. Hadn’t considered that.
sonicanatidae 3y ago
So a business based on shafting customers constantly is now decrying that they can't shaft people fast enough, because people are tired of spending entirely too much money on a vehicle. Cry me a fucking river.
emmender1 3y ago
the yuppie rich in sunny states have their EVs already. the poors need reliable transportation to get to their workplace to feed their families and pay rent
smileysteve 3y ago
Have they tried investing in a charging network? Tesla packaged their early vehicles with unlimited super charging for life - and a nation wide network -- with test road trips publicized; and if you buy a GM/Ford today you have to pull up to a heavily Tesla branded station, pay a premium, use an adapter --- or pull up to chargers that are often slow and unmaintained, with waiting lines, and require a different app at every different station.
- smileysteve 3y ago
  Imagine if GM -- perhaps with partnership with another manufacturer invested a portion of today's $10b buyback in a national charging network; possibly doubling the ability for Americans to charge with high quality, branded and integrated (like Tesla). But nope, a stock buyback. https://www.cnbc.com/2023/11/29/gm-buyback-dividend-guidance.html https://www.cnbc.com/2023/11/29/gm-buyback-dividend-guidance...
rawgabbit 3y ago
Hybrid vehicles have much lower inventory levels, supporting Toyota's argument that consumers want a stepping stone to fully electric cars. There's a relatively tight 44-day supply of hybrids industrywide, according to Cox. Toyotas are in particularly short supply — under 30 days each for Prius and RAV4 hybrids and plug-in hybrids. https://www.axios.com/2023/07/10/unsold-electric-cars-are-piling-up-on-dealer-lots https://www.axios.com/2023/07/10/unsold-electric-cars-are-pi...
soul_grafitti 3y ago
Personally I think the availability of rental EVs has done a lot to dampen excitement about _owning_ an EV. It certainly did for me. Driving one is a lot of fun but using it outside about 100 miles of where you park it each night is fraught. Insurance rates are much higher because of the extremely high repair costs for even minor collisions. Consequently EVs are 'totaled' much more easily than equivalent hybrid or gas vehicles. Eastern Europe is doing a booming business in refurbished EVs shipped over from the US. Then there are the issues of battery production and disposal which can do a lot to mitigate the environmental benefits of an EV. These details, aside from charging, weren't readily apparent at first. But they are real and they are expensive.

22 points by no_wizard 3y ago

EVs are expensive, so it's not surprising.

I honestly don't trust car dealers. Most of them are scammers trying to bait and switch, inflate prices, sell worthless warranties/upgrades, and generally screw everyone to the best of their abilities. People order cars and have to buy through them, so the dealer takes the car and sells it to someone else for more. Then, when you actually get the car, if it breaks down they will charge you for in-warranty repairs. They were the worst with EVs and Hybrids. In the meantime, with work from home, a lot of people are realizing they don't need a car. Everyone else's car payment is going to doubled grocery prices and doubled rents. Also, good luck buying anything affordable, because the lots are filled with F-150s and SUVs.

downrightmike 3y ago
Good luck finding a sedan for less than $30k, manufacturers are only making expensive cars if they make any. They seem to think the market wants those FX50's or SUVs, but that's because they can charge a lot more for them. Well, they can charge that, but as we see, the vehicles just sit in lots at this point.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >Good luck finding a sedan for less than $30k, manufacturers are only making expensive cars if they make any. There's still affordable car makers in the west. Meet the Dacia Duster 2024 Hybrid SUV, starting at 20K, up to 30K fully loaded (Europe only). Probably gonna sell like hotcakes. https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/dacia-duster https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/dacia-duster
  - downrightmike 3y ago
    We're talking about America
- itsyaboi 3y ago
  A 2024 toyota corolla is ~$22k.
- foxyv 3y ago
  Another thing that gets me is the insurance. The videos of Teslas spying on drivers and reporting hard acceleration while raising people's rates. The $500/month insurance costs for every other insurance provider. All because the car has to be a way-too-fast status symbol. Meanwhile people just want to get to work/school/home without crashing into a tree or spending their kid's college savings account on insurance.
  - instagib 3y ago
    That is on Tesla’s own insurance program. https://insideevs.com/news/698182/tesla-insurance-track-day-premiums/ https://insideevs.com/news/698182/tesla-insurance-track-day-... It’s the normal taddle tail addon plugs into your obd2 port other insurances have to reduce your rates if you drive 4am-10pm, less than 85, and don’t hard brake or rates go up.
mindslight 3y ago
I've been in need of a truck for the past several years. And due to life circumstances, I would likely have just paid the new vehicle premium. But based on everything I've been hearing about prices, availability, and dealer games, I haven't even been looking. When the rampant price inflation has subsided and salespeople are back to choosing whether to splurge on the premium can of dogfood, then perhaps I'll think about it. Of course by the time this happens I'll have more bandwidth for maintenance, and with the unsafe touchscreens and antagonistic surveillance systems they're cramming into new vehicles, I'll probably just end up with an older model.
- foxyv 3y ago
  Chevy makes some fairly decent no-BS trucks I hear. Stuff with knobs and buttons instead of touch screens and driver cameras.

ChoGGi 3y ago

Cheaper EVs would help, but teaching st/dealerships that their service bay isn't going to be their main profit centre will be a long road.

smileysteve 3y ago
This is going to be a key transition factor; Dealerships (maintenance and new sales), Oil/Exhaust/Brake, and Gas stations will decimated -- as car owners no longer have a system that neglect (oil, coolant, high temp exhaust, high temp seals and sensors) causes an end of life event. At most, battery packs will be neglected when cars sit, but vehicles today with a the sensors and systems that run lithium ion batteries safely will reduce many of the impacts of neglect. But mostly new sales, even used market sales; the interior will be the primary part of a vehicle that ages (ignoring the effect of salt on roads)
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  EVs still use oil and coolant though just that the oil never needs changing. And EVs still have issues needing you to go to the service. My mate had to take his ID.3 to the service 3 times due to SW issues. EVs aren't immune from issues.
  - smileysteve 3y ago
    Software (plugging in a cable and a computer) and other 100k+ mile (suspension) if not lifetime (battery coolant or oil, airbag recall) seem seldom and low rate activities not enough to keep a dealership service department running. Tesla is often solving these with mobile mechanics and regional service centers.
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      People only focus on the ICE engine itself as being the need to go to the service, but there's other shit that can go wrong in a car, no matter if it's ICE or EV, like window lifters, locks, tailgate, bumper changes, door changes, mirrors, suspension, heated $WHATEVER, one of the dozens of ECUs or sensors getting faulty, plus anything damaged from the usual fender bender or curb mounting. You'll still need to go to a service for those. And ICE cars will not magically disappear overnight off the roads though. Service centers still have at least 20+ years of work for them of ICE + EV combined. It should be enough to plan your business accordingly like selling it or pivoting to something else if you think the EV future is too low margin for that business.

downrightmike 3y ago

We should EV even harder

kcb 3y ago

People don't want $60k+ Fords and Chevys.

NewJazz 3y ago
The Mach E is 43k MSRP. The lightning is 50k. The Bolt is less.
- instagib 3y ago
  Lightning: Price Detail Base MSRP: S1 $49,995 + Destination: S17 $1,995 = Total MSRP: S16 $51,990 = Est. Net Price: S5 $51,990
  - busterarm 3y ago
    There is exactly _one_ of those Lightning Pro models at $51,990 within 100 miles of me in Ford's dealer network. The XLTs are a bit better with about a half-dozen or so at the $55,990, also within 100 miles. Most of the Lightning inventory is loaded and far above those base model prices. We're not even talking $60k, we're talking $75-90k...For an F-150 and today's interest rates...
    - NewJazz 3y ago
      Anything above 80k is not eligible for the truck subsidy.
      - busterarm 3y ago
        The people buying new luxury trucks are already getting cut off from the truck subsidy anyway because their AGIs are too high.
- stewarts 3y ago
  Every Mach-E or F-150 Lightning in my area is minimum 70k. Packages and markups run away from base MSRP very quickly.

vannevar 3y ago

They might be telling that to the administration, but the problem is apparently not so severe as to get them to drop their prices. I'll believe them when I see deep dealer discounts on EVs.

toss1 3y ago

Key quote: >> "And then not only are EVs more expensive, but their own salespeople are untrained. They don't even know how to answer most of the questions they get. A lot of them have 100–200 percent turnover of their sales staff in a given year," Reigersman told me. IOW, the dealerships only want to sell what is easy. They do not want to invest in their people to learn how to sell the cars. They all grumble a bit when the manufacturers require $$Millions in capital investment to sell & service their cars, but are now balking at expense of training their people. It is far past time to kill requirements that cars cannot be sold direct. If the dealership cannot or will not sell the EVs, then the companies should be able to route around dealers. I'd bet we'll suddenly find that their salespeople are all trained up and selling EVs like hotcakes after that.

JohnFen 3y ago
> They don't even know how to answer most of the questions they get. Do people actually believe anything a car salesman says anyway?
- toss1 3y ago
  >>Do people actually believe anything a car salesman says anyway? Used car? Very little New car? I've found a few good ones, and much of what they need to say is verifiable (e.g., in the specs in a brochure / official website). I think the point was that customers can't even get basic info out of these people, and they aren't even offering their usual level of encouragement to buy. I.e., the car sales people (and the managers failing to provide training) are not doing their jobs. If they don't want to do their jobs, then the companies should be able to route around them.

takumo 3y ago

It's true, car dealers "can't sell" EVs. Not because people don't want EVs, but because dealers either don't want to sell them, or don't know how to sell them. I've owned 3 EVs since 2016 and I've been to franchise dealerships each time. I've been to dealerships both with and without dedicated or specially trained EV sales reps. Sales reps who've not had any specific training on selling EVs, working in dealerships with no dedicated EV showroom space are _terrible_ at selling EVs IME. At best they're disinterested in making a sale, at worst they actively discourage you with all the common EV related FUD. Showrooms with dedicated space to showcase EV product offerings, information about EVs and which have marketing material actively incentivising the benefits of an EV, also have sales reps who are knowledgeable, helpful, and actively seeking to close a sale.

hitpointdrew 3y ago
I don’t want an EV. EV’s will never be a viable option until they are better in every facet than a combustion engine. The charging is cumbersome and much longer than filling a gas tank, hard pass. I would buy a combustion engine car, even if it was more expensive, for this reason alone.
- busterarm 3y ago
  Californians don't realize that in most of the rest of the country, the infrastructure still isn't there. There's a reason car sales in NYC are still sub-1% EVs.
  - JCharante 3y ago
    who is driving more than 200 miles per day??
    - busterarm 3y ago
      That's the wrong way to look at it. Regardless of how much you're driving, most folks in dense urban non-Californian areas are getting at best a Level 2 charge. Who has the time to sit around or park their car for an hour for every 20 miles they drive? If you take NYC for example, EV parking spaces are big bucks and for the few available public infrastructure places, most of the spots are being occupied full time by city parks department vehicles that rarely if ever leave the charger. As far as taking your question literally, you should talk to people in the midwest more -- I know lots of folks in the Dakotas and Wyoming with crazy schedules and 4hr commutes because that's literally the closest work.

davidf18 3y ago

[dead]

oldpersonintx 3y ago

[dead]

givemeethekeys 3y ago

Why would I buy an inferior EV from a dealer when I can buy a better one directly from Tesla?

LUmBULtERA 3y ago

Don't even get me started on how awful dealerships are. I test drove an Ioniq 5, and the vehicle itself was pretty decent. But then when I ask what the out-the-door price is and they all went on the "let's go inside", sit me down, ask for every piece of personal information, then make me wait even longer and tell me they need to go to talk to a manager to get a f'ing price. Tesla is much better than that, but their competition in the U.S. is total shit so I don't think they're even trying to compete as hard here as in, e.g., China.

AnimalMuppet 3y ago
Where I am, at least part of the reason for that is that the sales tax varies by county - not county of the dealer, but county of the buyer, which I think is kind of crazy. (Yes, it makes it so that the dealers don't all cluster just over the line in the county with the lowest sales tax. Still...) So if you want the actual price (and thereby to avoid the "we told you $X, but it's actually $X+Y" mess that makes dealers look like slimy crooks), then they need enough information to tell you the actual price. You want an estimate? They might give you one, with some amount of uncertainty. You want an accurate number? You have to give them every single bit of information that affects the price.
- LUmBULtERA 3y ago
  It's easy enough for them to say $X plus sales tax for your county. The sales tax is easy to calculate for anyone, it's the $X that matters.

pjkundert 3y ago

Crappy EVs sold by sleazy salesmen aren’t selling?

JCharante 3y ago

> Today, the supply of unsold BEVs is surging, as they are not selling nearly as fast as they are arriving at our dealerships—even with deep price cuts, manufacturer incentives, and generous government incentives. have they tried improving the quality of the cars?

yumraj 3y ago

Personally, I would love an EV, in CA. Problem, currently I can’t get solar (townhome, old roof, HOA). And without solar, with PG&E prices which keep going up, I’m not really sure EVs make a lot of sense given their cost and the fact I’ll have to spend $5-$10K (not exactly sure) to install the 240V charger. One of our cars is a plug in hybrid, so with 110V overnight charging for many trips and gas range for longer trips we get the best of both. Our next car might also be a plug-in or a hybrid. EV, I just don’t see a good option ( sorry, FWIW, not going to consider a Tesla due to Musk)

UnFleshedOne 3y ago
If you already have a plugin hybrid and a good portion of your trips is under its EV range, why would you need an EV anyway?
- yumraj 3y ago
  Yes, I feel, may not be correct, that plug-in hybrids are a little underrated. Most have very short ranges, I wish the range could be longer. Rav-4 has the best range that I know of, but they are hard to find and with the newer tax credits hard to justify, as they are not built in the US they don’t qualify for tax credits. OTOH, I hate oil changes, so that is my personal reason to go full EV since technically they require less routine maintenance as they are simpler.
NewJazz 3y ago
I mean you'll have to do the math, but if the income based payment models go through, marginal kWh will be noticeably cheaper.
- yumraj 3y ago
  Actually I think it’s going to increase the total for most average income and above folks.. But you do make an interesting point, that marginal might be lower which may change the math. Hadn’t considered that.

sonicanatidae 3y ago

So a business based on shafting customers constantly is now decrying that they can't shaft people fast enough, because people are tired of spending entirely too much money on a vehicle. Cry me a fucking river.

emmender1 3y ago

the yuppie rich in sunny states have their EVs already. the poors need reliable transportation to get to their workplace to feed their families and pay rent

smileysteve 3y ago

Have they tried investing in a charging network? Tesla packaged their early vehicles with unlimited super charging for life - and a nation wide network -- with test road trips publicized; and if you buy a GM/Ford today you have to pull up to a heavily Tesla branded station, pay a premium, use an adapter --- or pull up to chargers that are often slow and unmaintained, with waiting lines, and require a different app at every different station.

smileysteve 3y ago
Imagine if GM -- perhaps with partnership with another manufacturer invested a portion of today's $10b buyback in a national charging network; possibly doubling the ability for Americans to charge with high quality, branded and integrated (like Tesla). But nope, a stock buyback. https://www.cnbc.com/2023/11/29/gm-buyback-dividend-guidance.html https://www.cnbc.com/2023/11/29/gm-buyback-dividend-guidance...

rawgabbit 3y ago

Hybrid vehicles have much lower inventory levels, supporting Toyota's argument that consumers want a stepping stone to fully electric cars. There's a relatively tight 44-day supply of hybrids industrywide, according to Cox. Toyotas are in particularly short supply — under 30 days each for Prius and RAV4 hybrids and plug-in hybrids. https://www.axios.com/2023/07/10/unsold-electric-cars-are-piling-up-on-dealer-lots https://www.axios.com/2023/07/10/unsold-electric-cars-are-pi...

soul_grafitti 3y ago

Personally I think the availability of rental EVs has done a lot to dampen excitement about _owning_ an EV. It certainly did for me. Driving one is a lot of fun but using it outside about 100 miles of where you park it each night is fraught. Insurance rates are much higher because of the extremely high repair costs for even minor collisions. Consequently EVs are 'totaled' much more easily than equivalent hybrid or gas vehicles. Eastern Europe is doing a booming business in refurbished EVs shipped over from the US. Then there are the issues of battery production and disposal which can do a lot to mitigate the environmental benefits of an EV. These details, aside from charging, weren't readily apparent at first. But they are real and they are expensive.