16 ms·

Roundcube open-source webmail software merges with Nextcloud

341 points by mikece 3y ago

nik736 3y ago
Will Roundcube still be a seperated project or will it be included in Nextcloud? If they integrate it to heavily in the Nextcloud stuff I won't be using it anymore. :-)
- ekianjo 3y ago
  There is no reason why both can't continue at the same time.
  - j16sdiz 3y ago
    Of course they can! Just wait until they shift focus or somebody shouts efficiency.
    - jospoortvliet 3y ago
      Note that we're not backed by a a venture capital firm that needs a 10X exit, we're self-funded and have been sustainably growing ~50%/year since we got started. We're over 100 people so paying for 2 developers on Roundcube (tripling the resources being put into Roundcube today) would be trivial for us. We'll look what users want, what's best for the ecosystem etc, but we're not looking to kill it and if we ever would, it won't be for the money.
- doublerabbit 3y ago
  > Nextcloud Mail will evolve as it is, focused on being used naturally within Nextcloud. Roundcube will continue to serve its active and new users as a stand-alone secure mail client. I don't think so, as then Web Hosting Panels would loose out. But, you never know.
unixhero 3y ago
I have used it for 5 years for my business. Never any single hickup.
preya2k 3y ago
I'm glad the post states that Roundcube will stay an independent product. Roundcube is on a whole other level in terms of stability and robustness compared to Nextcloud. I'm also glad that the current Nextcloud client will be replaced, because it's not very good right now.
- stratom 3y ago
  Nextcloud Mail won't be replaced by Roundcube! "Neither will Roundcube replace Nextcloud Mail or the other way around. ... Nextcloud Mail will evolve as it is, focused on being used naturally within Nextcloud."
  - preya2k 3y ago
    Thanks for the reminder. I still expect Roundcube to become a well-maintained alternative for E-Mail clients within Nextcloud, right?
    - lakomen 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - miroljub 3y ago
        Please ... don't do that anymore. When I want to "enjoy" memes, I'll go reddit, not HN. Let's keep it clean.
  - noname120 3y ago
    Will it be like Microsoft saying that VS Code wouldn't replace Atom after the merger? Not that I like Atom, quite the opposite.
    - Night_Thastus 3y ago
      Atom was my first proper Editor. I miss it, even though there were a lot of bugs. It was so much fun finding all the cool community-made packages and trying them out.
johnsea 3y ago
Nice to hear. After several (abandoned) attempts and installing NC from scratch it seems to me that Nextcloud matures well. I like the focus on hub/groupware. Still some details from time to time which annoy me (and probably could be improved). But in general, Nextcloud is great! And using AIO (all-in-one docker image) it's really simple to install and maintain the server. -- So happy to have a good alternative to the Microsoft365 offerings!!! I do think Roundcube found a good place.
- preya2k 3y ago
  Not sure which "focus on hub/groupware" you're talking about. Some groupware features are still horribly buggy and understaffed (e.g. the whole mess of co-existing methods of sharing files/folders with groups – Share vs. Group Folder vs. Collectives/Circles – or the crazy amount of WebDav and CalDav bugs that have been existing for many years), while "AI" (or some other buzzwordy technology) gets all the focus. As much as I hat to say it, but feature wise it's not very close to being a Microsoft 365 alternative.
  - deng 3y ago
    Unfortunately, I can only second this. The absolute basic functionality, meaning file storage and access through a browser, works fine. However, as soon as it comes to integration with the various existing clients, things fall apart, and it's not even terribly complicated stuff. For instance, I used Nextcloud to automatically upload photos from my Android mobile, and this has been completely broken for over 2 months now, and nothing is happening (see https://github.com/nextcloud/android/issues/11974 https://github.com/nextcloud/android/issues/11974). It's pretty clear they simply do not have enough staff to maintain all of the clients, and I'm just rsyncing my stuff now... Don't get me wrong, I'm thankful for Nextcloud and hope they can survive, but one needs to manage expectations when using it...
    - vedranm 3y ago
      I had the requirement for the same basic functionality and switched to Syncthing several years ago. Haven't looked back: works all the time, every time, and it is much easier to maintain.
evandrofisico 3y ago
Implemented and integrated both at work six years ago, it is a nice combination.
erinnh 3y ago
Good to hear. More support for Roundcube, while Nextcloud gets a better Email client than the current one.
joeig 3y ago
I've been a very happy Roundcube user for a decade without a single problem. Also worth mentioning, their CLI update script just works without a hitch. I'd like to see Nextcloud adopt Roundcube's commitment to reliable software. I've tried migrating my calendars, reminders and contacts several times, but it's never worked reliably. There were often subtle problems such as missing calendar entries that simply disappeared without a trace.
milliams 3y ago
It's just a shame that the $100k that was raised for "RoundCube Next" (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/roundcube-next--2 https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/roundcube-next--2) back in 2015 produced exactly nothing (https://github.com/roundcube-next https://github.com/roundcube-next) with no explanation.
- robertlagrant 3y ago
  What a shame! There's some info on the Wikipedia page[0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundcube#Project_.22Roundcube_Next.22 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundcube#Project_.22Roundcube...
  - sweetjuly 3y ago
    The GitHub issue talking about this [1] is such a mess too. Maintainers closing the question with a vague non-answer, deleting comments left and right, etc. Sounds like someone stole the money and everyone is either complicit or too embarrassed to admit that it happened. [1] https://github.com/roundcube/roundcubemail/issues/6030 https://github.com/roundcube/roundcubemail/issues/6030
mxuribe 3y ago
This is wonderful news! Nextcloud gets an additional product offering for an important aspect (email!), and RoundCube gets resources in the way of dev. staff (and possibly other benefits from NextCloud funding)...and ALL of it is open source, self-hostable, and good tech.! Kudos to RoundCube and NextCloud folks!
creshal 3y ago
Given Nextcloud's track record that doesn't bode well for Roundcube's future. We tried to make Nextcloud work for us for years, but it's just too terribly clunky, unstable, bug-ridden, and customer hostile. I hope none of that rubs off on roundcube.
- manmal 3y ago
  Do you have recommendations for a self hosted webDAV server that could act as a Dropbox / GDrive replacement? I‘m using Nextcloud only for that use case because I haven’t found anything that seemed as stable.
  - xobs 3y ago
    I've had very good luck with Seafile
  - gibsonf1 3y ago
    https://graphmetrix.com/trinpod https://graphmetrix.com/trinpod
  - pseudostem 3y ago
    I echo GPs thoughts. I use a VPS with syncthing. While that is also clunky, it works for my usecase while keeping multiple redundant copies across devices.
    - jonnycomputer 3y ago
      Depends on what you mean by redundant though, right? Syncthing is generally not gonna protect you from an accidental `rm -r *`, unless perhaps you set yourself up with a permanent head server where everything is versioned but on which files are never edited. (I'll be happy to be wrong)
  - pahae 3y ago
    We used Seafile in $old_job a couple of years back. Still had some rough edges back then (mostly with user management) but the rest was rock solid. Loved working with it, managing and sharing files was pretty easy.
Zetobal 3y ago
I hate nextcloud with a passion and I just hope they can govern a project like roundcube... used it for 20 years even through the whole roundcube next debacle. That said roundcube itself is not an oss project with a clean track record. Nextcloud is the OSS equivalent of IBM and ticking boxes so it's easy for management to pull the trigger but every feature is just a half-assed buggy implementation. Gobbling up OSS funds and fucking up government projects that try to rely on it. It's a disgrace.
- MarcusE1W 3y ago
  Hmm, I am using it for years and can’t quite relate to your passionate hate. With regards to box ticking, that is probably something you need to do if you want to compete with Gsuite and O365. Both have sales teams which are influencing some decision makers in organisations wherever they can. If you give these people the opportunity to say ‘Ha, we can’t use Nextcloud because it does not support XYZ’ then they will. You never get fired because you bought IBM. It is very difficult to get through this barrier. Sometimes you need to put a bit of lipstick on your pig, because others did it as well. Plus, XYZ might be implemented half-aresed in Gsuite or O365 as well.
  - Zetobal 3y ago
    You wrote it yourself "might be implemented half-arsed in Gsuite or O365". You can be sure it's half-arsed with nextcloud. For smaller deployments it might be fine but it starts to get bogged down with more than 1000 users.
    - neurostimulant 3y ago
      NextCloud is just your typical PHP & MySQL webapp. The scaling limit is how many connections your database server can handles and how much iops your disk provides.
      - Zetobal 3y ago
        They are advertising a enterprise ready solution and it's clearly not. No matter how much hardware you throw at it.
jonnycomputer 3y ago
Comments here seem to suggest that Nextcloud isn't worth it. Later today I'm supposed to talk with some folks at IT looking for an in-house file-sharing/collaboration tool that Dropbox/GoogleDrive is (or was, because after GoogleDrive price hikes our institution ditched them). I was going to suggest Nextcloud as a possible option to investigate...
- muixoozie 3y ago
  I'm not sure all your requirements, but check out syncthing.
- ar0 3y ago
  I don’t know… the overall tone seems to be a bit too negative for me here. I have used Nextcloud at home for years now without issues and we also used it at a large university where it worked just fine (from a user perspective; I don’t know if it gave the administrators nightmares). I do agree that they should invest more time in polish and stability and less in swanky new features that many won’t need, but that would not lead me to discourage anyone from using (or at least trying) Nextcloud.
- this_user 3y ago
  NC is trying to do a lot, but it's not doing anything particularly well. It feels like their development resources are spread too thin to really polish any of the features. If you just need file sharing, there are some projects that focus on that that tend to work pretty well. I have also tried running NC with OnlyOffice, but that seems to break every two weeks. And even if it works, Google's tools are just so much better. I would even choose O365 over this.
- ipcress_file 3y ago
  If you're going to do this, look for a proven stable Nextcloud solution. I followed one of the many guides on the web a couple of years ago to install Nextcloud on Debian, which worked, but the first major update broke it. I couldn't fix it because I didn't know why it broke. You wouldn't want to be in that situation with employees waiting for service to be restored. Since then, I've been running an always-on Syncthing instance as a "cloud hub" and that's been great, though I doubt it would scale well.
jordemort 3y ago
I really want to like Nextcloud. I had it all set up perfectly earlier this year with their "AIO" setup. Then some upgrade came along and completely destroyed my install, couldn't get the containers to start after that, couldn't figure out how to debug it; seemed like the only way to get it back on its feet was to wipe and start over. I wiped; I haven't started over yet.
- spinningD20 3y ago
  I had this happen to me as well, though I remember that it was either a docker or snap/flatpak/etc version of it. Got things working but lost a few months of data, likely something I foolishly did while trying to make things work. Stopped using it and went with Seafile for a while - grew frustrated with that and stopped syncing files between computers altogether. Later on, when I set up an old dell xeon workstation as a home server (using proxmox), I used the turnkey image of nextcloud, and have (knock on wood) not had any issues at all. Anyway - I wanted to ensure it was fully virtualized this next time if/when this happens again. I have it backing up the base vm once a week (I have the file storage separate/outside of the vm). So... hopefully this doesn't happen again to the degree that it did.
- blkhawk 3y ago
  I have been upgrading my then owncloud setup now nextcloud setup for the last 10 years or so almost without issue - most issues I had where back when it was still owncloud. I think I did a wipe back then once. Nowadays even if something goes wrong I know what i can do. For instance i upgraded PHP too soon once and had to manually patch it. Anecdotal evidence tho. Results vary. I like nextcloud because worst case all a wipe would cost me is a re-upload of my local folders over a couple of hours.
  - jospoortvliet 3y ago
    Same here, but it's a big and complicated beast. I never lost data but then with hundreds of thousands of servers out there, somebody is bound to. Even if it's just due to bloody cosmic rays ;-)
- 3y ago
INTPenis 3y ago
I sure hope there are no changes to standalone roundcube, because I'm just starting to think nextcloud is too heavy. I see people on selfhosting forums asking for alternatives. It would be sad if they swallowed roundcube, which I remember as a decent web email client.
- charles_f 3y ago
  Rainloop is a good alternative IMO
  - mbirth 3y ago
    I hear SnappyMail is a fork of Rainloop with lots of improvements.
    - charles_f 3y ago
      Oh thanks! OpenPGP support in Rainloop is really bad, I ended up adding Mailvelope as a plugin. I'd gladly give it a shot even if just for that.
gpvos 3y ago
What I would like to have is a small Nextcloud installation (max. 200MB, preferably even smaller) that I can host on a ultra-cheap tiny server. I just need file sync, calendar and contacts. The total size of the synced files isn't much either. Nextcloud used to be small enough for this, but they kept adding things, bundling word processors and other stuff I don't need, meanwhile making the contacts and calendar optional. I have had to move to a larger server only for this reason, to keep Nextcloud at a supported version. Does Syncthing have contacts and calendar syncing? Any others? I like having a central server.
- dchest 3y ago
  For calendars and contacts you can try Radicale if you don't need web access: https://radicale.org/v3.html https://radicale.org/v3.html
  - charles_f 3y ago
    you can drop infCloud on top of any caldav/cardav to get a UI. I've been using it with radical for a while.
- MoSattler 3y ago
  A few years back I used to use SyncThing + DecSync for that purpose, and it worked quite well. Looks like it hasn't been updated in a while though. https://github.com/39aldo39/DecSync https://github.com/39aldo39/DecSync
- willyt 3y ago
  https://nextcloudpi.com https://nextcloudpi.com might do it for you. I've been running it on raspberry pi 4 with a Samsung 1tb usb3 ssd for a year or two with no problems that weren't solved by turning it off and on again...yet.
- johnsea 3y ago
  What is an ultra-cheap tiny server? Maybe a CX21 (6.37 €/mth) at https://www.hetzner.com/de/cloud https://www.hetzner.com/de/cloud would fit. There are Docker images and you only need to install the NextCloud AIO. Super simple. Upgrade is also simple (we only did it once and it went through perfectly). Syncthing is nice but file-sync-only.
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bityard 3y ago
I've been running Nextcloud for family collaboration purposes since before the fork from Owncloud. I've been pretty happy with it overall. My biggest gripe with it is the increasing schizophrenia of the UX devs. One thing I _loved_ about Nextcloud was that they paid a lot of attention to making it easy to navigate and use. The newer UX "enhancements" seem to be all about maximizing (useless) whitespace and making every widget as spherical as possible. The calendar UI used to be a joy to use, now it's the most frustrating calendar I have ever seen. On the plus side, if you're using the docker image, upgrades are a breeze. Just bump the tag on the image, redeploy, and you're done. (It did take a _lot_ of effort to migrating my existing data to the docker container, though.) I also use Roundcube as my main email client. I've looked at bunches of them, but Roundcube is the closest thing to a web-based Thunderbird that I have seen. Unfortunately, this had a UI "update" too and now practically nothing can be customized the way I prefer. If someone forks Roundcube and brings back the old theme, I will switch to it tomorrow.
- TheCapeGreek 3y ago
  >On the plus side, if you're using the docker image, upgrades are a breeze. Just bump the tag on the image, redeploy, and you're done. (It did take a _lot_ of effort to migrating my existing data to the docker container, though.) As much as people rag on Snap, Nextcloud being available on it is also super convenient if one doesn't feel like using Docker.
- justsomehnguy 3y ago
  > It did take a _lot_ of effort to migrating my existing data to the docker container Or you could just use some external storage. Like SMB or something. And then you would learn what updates aren't 'a breeze'. And there is no built-in SMB support in the default container. Since I'm running it since OwnCloud days too, I have an opinion on it and it's Not. Good. Desktop client for Windows is miserable and sucks: a) you have something with a name longer than 30 symbols? You know need to guess what the full path of that file in the error log b) this is like 4th year when you have an option to see the errors in a separate window, except it's... empty. Not an empty error log, it' empty window c) Oh, best part: if the client decided to update it would kill your Explorer first (like -9), install the it's shit and then... force reboot your machine without any questions d) when you click on the client icon in the notification area it shows multiple icons what you would thing would do something. Except it's just opens the web-interface of the instance For years mobile client couldn't work properly with a self-signed certs, which is quite ludicrous for a solution boasted as the pinnacle of self-hosting. UI overall is shit, it's a legacy of early 2010 concepts with Googlisation on every not needed aspect. And just outright stupid ideas, which 2.5 developers at NextCloud couldn't test, like littering EVERY (sorry for caps) folder you navigate through the web interface with README.md. And shitting bricks on non case sensitive mounts, because yes, it's hard. Server side is always running to pump out new versions, while abandoning and deprecating addons. Oh, addon you are using is now deprecated, besides being made a mere year ago? Tough luck. Stay on the supported NC version. Except it's not supported anymore because it's a year old now version. Oh, since 2016 it's no longer a file syncing solution, it's collaboration software or even groupware. That means there are now office suite, chat, contact lists and whatever else, including an email client. This also explains why did NC 'bought' RC. Except all those parts are not integrated good. And finally it's a PHP app with a tons of legacy code. As soon as something breaks you are drowning in multiple screen heights of errors of PHP code. And consequently all performance troubles are solved by throwing RAM and CPU at the instance. /rant
throw555chip 3y ago
Meanwhile on Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/selfhosted/comments/186g3ak/owncloud_vulnerability_with_maximum_10_severity/ https://www.reddit.com/r/selfhosted/comments/186g3ak/ownclou... What are the odds, a positive article relating to Nextcloud posted on HN the same day a negative article is posted about Owncloud on Reddit.
- downrightmike 3y ago
  Good job Nextcloud marketing team. Probably just pushed up the announcement
  - jospoortvliet 3y ago
    Ha, I wish. Been working on this for weeks, it's even a little annoying oC kind'a pooped on the party by having that massive security hole...
ape4 3y ago
Roundcube had a recent CVE. If a user just read a mail they would get hit, ouch. https://www.cvedetails.com/vulnerability-list/vendor_id-8905/Roundcube.html https://www.cvedetails.com/vulnerability-list/vendor_id-8905...
- ale42 3y ago
  If I remember well Outlook (or was it Outlook express?) used to do something very similar (speaking of 15 years ago or so), except it was infecting your local PC instead of the web server.
AndroTux 3y ago
Speaking of Roundcube: If you're hosting it without apache (as in: without htaccess support), make sure the logs directory and files aren't exposed publicly. They can contain access tokens and even encrypted passwords (encrypted with a default password unless manually changed during installation), and follow a known file structure, so it's quite common for people to get owned this way.
- figmert 3y ago
  > ~~If you're hosting it without apache (as in: without htaccess support),~~ make sure the logs directory and files aren't exposed publicly. Never expose any logs to strangers for anything anywhere
  - AndroTux 3y ago
    Sure, that’s always sound advice. However, most projects are usually designed in a way that their logs are either not exposed at all (due to not being in the webroot for example), or have measurements in place to avoid exposing them (like WordPress for example). Roundcube just puts them there and you have to actively think about excluding them from your webserver configuration. Plus, they dump really sensitive information in there by default. That’s why I wanted to explicitly point it out in this case.
    - crtasm 3y ago
      Can you configure Roundcube to store them outside the webroot?
      - iggldiggl 3y ago
        If you're running Roundcube on its own subdomain, you just set the webroot to the "public_html" subfolder and then nothing else is accessible.
ekianjo 3y ago
why use the phoronix link when the original source has much more info? https://nextcloud.com/blog/open-source-email-pioneer-roundcube-comes-aboard-nextcloud/ https://nextcloud.com/blog/open-source-email-pioneer-roundcu...
charles_f 3y ago
Since we're talking about email, contacts, calendars and files, thought it might be useful to summarize what I tried and landed on. Note that I'm only using it for my own personal setup, not shared with a company: - SyncThing - current solution for some of the filesync I'm doing (mainly personal projects). I have a small server at home that works well as an "always on" client that I can access. - OwnCloud - used to use it for files, cal and contacts. It's much lighter than NextCloud, pretty easy to setup. I've had corruption issues with the files, which arguably might have been my configuration - and made me leave it behind - Radicale + infCloud - Used it for a while for contacts and calendar. It's working well, and the API being carddav+caldav, you can use anything you want to sync. The main issue I had was that you can't sent and invite, which is a hassle. - NextCloud - current solution for calendar and contacts. I'm using it mainly because my shared hosting is providing an instance with my contract, and they handle backups. I don't like the UI much, it's slow and a bit clunky, I mainly use it when I want to invite someone. I don't use files. I tried using their mail solution but never made it work. I'm using Davx5 to sync on my phone, and the carddav/caldav sync on mac. I may be moving at some point. - Rainloop - very good alternative to roundcube. My only grief with it is that I never figured how to search across folders. - Roundcube - pretty good, and lots of plugins you can use to make it do what you want. - Also used a simple SSH + SCP client to do file sync'ing. I'm just hesitant with that, since someone getting access would mean full access to the server.
- jospoortvliet 3y ago
  You might like to hear that in the upcoming release we re-wrote the front-end of Files, that'll be snappier. Hope it'll work well for you!
awill 3y ago
this isn't good for anyone but Roundcube investors. Roundcube is a well-liked product. Nextcloud is a PHP app with all kinds of security holes.
- stracer 3y ago
  By that logic, it should be good for Nextcloud investors.
  - jospoortvliet 3y ago
    The good news is that neither has investors... With regards to security, nothing is perfect but I'm absolutely positive that Nextcloud is ahead of the vast majority of open source projects. And if you know of a security hole, go and collect your USD 10K at HackerOne.
    - johnsea 3y ago
      True. I don't know of any other "holistic" project that we could have choosen instead of Nextcloud. One very very important point is the AIO installation method. So easy and no fear to have forgotten something important. -- You saved us from Google (no way) and Microsoft365 (a possibility), thank you!
poisonborz 3y ago
Oh no... Roundube was the top selfhosted email client. Nextcloud is great, but having everything and the kitchen sink maintained within and by it is worrying.
- dugite-code 3y ago
  Roundcube is still to be it's own separate project. Besides Nextcloud already has it's own webmail client. I imagine they might make it easier to install Roundcube as an APP though. The the existing implementation (that doesn't work for the latest Nextcloud anyway) requires an existing separate Roundcube installation.
sylware 3y ago
Do they have a noscript/basic (x)html portal?
butz 3y ago
It would be nice if Nextcloud would come in small modules, and one could effectively run only webmail, and add more features in the future on demand. Having everything in one just increases attack surface and makes more work managing it all.
- jospoortvliet 3y ago
  I have good news for you: https://apps.nextcloud.com https://apps.nextcloud.com Nextcloud is nothing more than a collection of small apps. You can disable even core things like sharing.
germandiago 3y ago
How does NextCloud compare to Sandstorm? It is the same kind of thing? What are the best alternatives to Sandstorm?
- ocdtrekkie 3y ago
  Sandstorm is an app platform that lets you install various apps within it, but doesn't have a lot of built-in functionality. Nextcloud is more of an all-in-one-kit solution, though it does also have an app store. It would not really make sense to put Nextcloud inside a Sandstorm app because it is too bulky, but you would need a suite of other Sandstorm apps to do what Nextcloud does. Very different approaches to a similar thing. Upsides and downsides to each approach.
Psychoshy_bc1q 3y ago
nextcloud is great but painfully slow, they should use something modern instead of ancient shit like php
- dugite-code 3y ago
  PHP has come a long way since the PHP5 days, PHP8+ is a modern reliable and performant language.
1letterunixname 3y ago
For a while, Zimbra was the most viable webmail alternative to Outlook. Zimbra was passed around like a hot potato, and I'm not even sure who owns it now.

341 points by mikece 3y ago

Will Roundcube still be a seperated project or will it be included in Nextcloud? If they integrate it to heavily in the Nextcloud stuff I won't be using it anymore. :-)

ekianjo 3y ago
There is no reason why both can't continue at the same time.
- j16sdiz 3y ago
  Of course they can! Just wait until they shift focus or somebody shouts efficiency.
  - jospoortvliet 3y ago
    Note that we're not backed by a a venture capital firm that needs a 10X exit, we're self-funded and have been sustainably growing ~50%/year since we got started. We're over 100 people so paying for 2 developers on Roundcube (tripling the resources being put into Roundcube today) would be trivial for us. We'll look what users want, what's best for the ecosystem etc, but we're not looking to kill it and if we ever would, it won't be for the money.
doublerabbit 3y ago
> Nextcloud Mail will evolve as it is, focused on being used naturally within Nextcloud. Roundcube will continue to serve its active and new users as a stand-alone secure mail client. I don't think so, as then Web Hosting Panels would loose out. But, you never know.

unixhero 3y ago

I have used it for 5 years for my business. Never any single hickup.

preya2k 3y ago

I'm glad the post states that Roundcube will stay an independent product. Roundcube is on a whole other level in terms of stability and robustness compared to Nextcloud. I'm also glad that the current Nextcloud client will be replaced, because it's not very good right now.

stratom 3y ago
Nextcloud Mail won't be replaced by Roundcube! "Neither will Roundcube replace Nextcloud Mail or the other way around. ... Nextcloud Mail will evolve as it is, focused on being used naturally within Nextcloud."
- preya2k 3y ago
  Thanks for the reminder. I still expect Roundcube to become a well-maintained alternative for E-Mail clients within Nextcloud, right?
  - lakomen 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - miroljub 3y ago
      Please ... don't do that anymore. When I want to "enjoy" memes, I'll go reddit, not HN. Let's keep it clean.
- noname120 3y ago
  Will it be like Microsoft saying that VS Code wouldn't replace Atom after the merger? Not that I like Atom, quite the opposite.
  - Night_Thastus 3y ago
    Atom was my first proper Editor. I miss it, even though there were a lot of bugs. It was so much fun finding all the cool community-made packages and trying them out.

johnsea 3y ago

Nice to hear. After several (abandoned) attempts and installing NC from scratch it seems to me that Nextcloud matures well. I like the focus on hub/groupware. Still some details from time to time which annoy me (and probably could be improved). But in general, Nextcloud is great! And using AIO (all-in-one docker image) it's really simple to install and maintain the server. -- So happy to have a good alternative to the Microsoft365 offerings!!! I do think Roundcube found a good place.

preya2k 3y ago
Not sure which "focus on hub/groupware" you're talking about. Some groupware features are still horribly buggy and understaffed (e.g. the whole mess of co-existing methods of sharing files/folders with groups – Share vs. Group Folder vs. Collectives/Circles – or the crazy amount of WebDav and CalDav bugs that have been existing for many years), while "AI" (or some other buzzwordy technology) gets all the focus. As much as I hat to say it, but feature wise it's not very close to being a Microsoft 365 alternative.
- deng 3y ago
  Unfortunately, I can only second this. The absolute basic functionality, meaning file storage and access through a browser, works fine. However, as soon as it comes to integration with the various existing clients, things fall apart, and it's not even terribly complicated stuff. For instance, I used Nextcloud to automatically upload photos from my Android mobile, and this has been completely broken for over 2 months now, and nothing is happening (see https://github.com/nextcloud/android/issues/11974 https://github.com/nextcloud/android/issues/11974). It's pretty clear they simply do not have enough staff to maintain all of the clients, and I'm just rsyncing my stuff now... Don't get me wrong, I'm thankful for Nextcloud and hope they can survive, but one needs to manage expectations when using it...
  - vedranm 3y ago
    I had the requirement for the same basic functionality and switched to Syncthing several years ago. Haven't looked back: works all the time, every time, and it is much easier to maintain.

evandrofisico 3y ago

Implemented and integrated both at work six years ago, it is a nice combination.

erinnh 3y ago

Good to hear. More support for Roundcube, while Nextcloud gets a better Email client than the current one.

joeig 3y ago

I've been a very happy Roundcube user for a decade without a single problem. Also worth mentioning, their CLI update script just works without a hitch. I'd like to see Nextcloud adopt Roundcube's commitment to reliable software. I've tried migrating my calendars, reminders and contacts several times, but it's never worked reliably. There were often subtle problems such as missing calendar entries that simply disappeared without a trace.

milliams 3y ago

It's just a shame that the $100k that was raised for "RoundCube Next" (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/roundcube-next--2 https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/roundcube-next--2) back in 2015 produced exactly nothing (https://github.com/roundcube-next https://github.com/roundcube-next) with no explanation.

robertlagrant 3y ago
What a shame! There's some info on the Wikipedia page[0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundcube#Project_.22Roundcube_Next.22 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundcube#Project_.22Roundcube...
- sweetjuly 3y ago
  The GitHub issue talking about this [1] is such a mess too. Maintainers closing the question with a vague non-answer, deleting comments left and right, etc. Sounds like someone stole the money and everyone is either complicit or too embarrassed to admit that it happened. [1] https://github.com/roundcube/roundcubemail/issues/6030 https://github.com/roundcube/roundcubemail/issues/6030

mxuribe 3y ago

This is wonderful news! Nextcloud gets an additional product offering for an important aspect (email!), and RoundCube gets resources in the way of dev. staff (and possibly other benefits from NextCloud funding)...and ALL of it is open source, self-hostable, and good tech.! Kudos to RoundCube and NextCloud folks!

creshal 3y ago

Given Nextcloud's track record that doesn't bode well for Roundcube's future. We tried to make Nextcloud work for us for years, but it's just too terribly clunky, unstable, bug-ridden, and customer hostile. I hope none of that rubs off on roundcube.

manmal 3y ago
Do you have recommendations for a self hosted webDAV server that could act as a Dropbox / GDrive replacement? I‘m using Nextcloud only for that use case because I haven’t found anything that seemed as stable.
- xobs 3y ago
  I've had very good luck with Seafile
- gibsonf1 3y ago
  https://graphmetrix.com/trinpod https://graphmetrix.com/trinpod
- pseudostem 3y ago
  I echo GPs thoughts. I use a VPS with syncthing. While that is also clunky, it works for my usecase while keeping multiple redundant copies across devices.
  - jonnycomputer 3y ago
    Depends on what you mean by redundant though, right? Syncthing is generally not gonna protect you from an accidental `rm -r *`, unless perhaps you set yourself up with a permanent head server where everything is versioned but on which files are never edited. (I'll be happy to be wrong)
- pahae 3y ago
  We used Seafile in $old_job a couple of years back. Still had some rough edges back then (mostly with user management) but the rest was rock solid. Loved working with it, managing and sharing files was pretty easy.

Zetobal 3y ago

I hate nextcloud with a passion and I just hope they can govern a project like roundcube... used it for 20 years even through the whole roundcube next debacle. That said roundcube itself is not an oss project with a clean track record. Nextcloud is the OSS equivalent of IBM and ticking boxes so it's easy for management to pull the trigger but every feature is just a half-assed buggy implementation. Gobbling up OSS funds and fucking up government projects that try to rely on it. It's a disgrace.

MarcusE1W 3y ago
Hmm, I am using it for years and can’t quite relate to your passionate hate. With regards to box ticking, that is probably something you need to do if you want to compete with Gsuite and O365. Both have sales teams which are influencing some decision makers in organisations wherever they can. If you give these people the opportunity to say ‘Ha, we can’t use Nextcloud because it does not support XYZ’ then they will. You never get fired because you bought IBM. It is very difficult to get through this barrier. Sometimes you need to put a bit of lipstick on your pig, because others did it as well. Plus, XYZ might be implemented half-aresed in Gsuite or O365 as well.
- Zetobal 3y ago
  You wrote it yourself "might be implemented half-arsed in Gsuite or O365". You can be sure it's half-arsed with nextcloud. For smaller deployments it might be fine but it starts to get bogged down with more than 1000 users.
  - neurostimulant 3y ago
    NextCloud is just your typical PHP & MySQL webapp. The scaling limit is how many connections your database server can handles and how much iops your disk provides.
    - Zetobal 3y ago
      They are advertising a enterprise ready solution and it's clearly not. No matter how much hardware you throw at it.

jonnycomputer 3y ago

Comments here seem to suggest that Nextcloud isn't worth it. Later today I'm supposed to talk with some folks at IT looking for an in-house file-sharing/collaboration tool that Dropbox/GoogleDrive is (or was, because after GoogleDrive price hikes our institution ditched them). I was going to suggest Nextcloud as a possible option to investigate...

muixoozie 3y ago
I'm not sure all your requirements, but check out syncthing.
ar0 3y ago
I don’t know… the overall tone seems to be a bit too negative for me here. I have used Nextcloud at home for years now without issues and we also used it at a large university where it worked just fine (from a user perspective; I don’t know if it gave the administrators nightmares). I do agree that they should invest more time in polish and stability and less in swanky new features that many won’t need, but that would not lead me to discourage anyone from using (or at least trying) Nextcloud.
this_user 3y ago
NC is trying to do a lot, but it's not doing anything particularly well. It feels like their development resources are spread too thin to really polish any of the features. If you just need file sharing, there are some projects that focus on that that tend to work pretty well. I have also tried running NC with OnlyOffice, but that seems to break every two weeks. And even if it works, Google's tools are just so much better. I would even choose O365 over this.
ipcress_file 3y ago
If you're going to do this, look for a proven stable Nextcloud solution. I followed one of the many guides on the web a couple of years ago to install Nextcloud on Debian, which worked, but the first major update broke it. I couldn't fix it because I didn't know why it broke. You wouldn't want to be in that situation with employees waiting for service to be restored. Since then, I've been running an always-on Syncthing instance as a "cloud hub" and that's been great, though I doubt it would scale well.

jordemort 3y ago

I really want to like Nextcloud. I had it all set up perfectly earlier this year with their "AIO" setup. Then some upgrade came along and completely destroyed my install, couldn't get the containers to start after that, couldn't figure out how to debug it; seemed like the only way to get it back on its feet was to wipe and start over. I wiped; I haven't started over yet.

spinningD20 3y ago
I had this happen to me as well, though I remember that it was either a docker or snap/flatpak/etc version of it. Got things working but lost a few months of data, likely something I foolishly did while trying to make things work. Stopped using it and went with Seafile for a while - grew frustrated with that and stopped syncing files between computers altogether. Later on, when I set up an old dell xeon workstation as a home server (using proxmox), I used the turnkey image of nextcloud, and have (knock on wood) not had any issues at all. Anyway - I wanted to ensure it was fully virtualized this next time if/when this happens again. I have it backing up the base vm once a week (I have the file storage separate/outside of the vm). So... hopefully this doesn't happen again to the degree that it did.
blkhawk 3y ago
I have been upgrading my then owncloud setup now nextcloud setup for the last 10 years or so almost without issue - most issues I had where back when it was still owncloud. I think I did a wipe back then once. Nowadays even if something goes wrong I know what i can do. For instance i upgraded PHP too soon once and had to manually patch it. Anecdotal evidence tho. Results vary. I like nextcloud because worst case all a wipe would cost me is a re-upload of my local folders over a couple of hours.
- jospoortvliet 3y ago
  Same here, but it's a big and complicated beast. I never lost data but then with hundreds of thousands of servers out there, somebody is bound to. Even if it's just due to bloody cosmic rays ;-)
3y ago

INTPenis 3y ago

I sure hope there are no changes to standalone roundcube, because I'm just starting to think nextcloud is too heavy. I see people on selfhosting forums asking for alternatives. It would be sad if they swallowed roundcube, which I remember as a decent web email client.

charles_f 3y ago
Rainloop is a good alternative IMO
- mbirth 3y ago
  I hear SnappyMail is a fork of Rainloop with lots of improvements.
  - charles_f 3y ago
    Oh thanks! OpenPGP support in Rainloop is really bad, I ended up adding Mailvelope as a plugin. I'd gladly give it a shot even if just for that.

gpvos 3y ago

What I would like to have is a small Nextcloud installation (max. 200MB, preferably even smaller) that I can host on a ultra-cheap tiny server. I just need file sync, calendar and contacts. The total size of the synced files isn't much either. Nextcloud used to be small enough for this, but they kept adding things, bundling word processors and other stuff I don't need, meanwhile making the contacts and calendar optional. I have had to move to a larger server only for this reason, to keep Nextcloud at a supported version. Does Syncthing have contacts and calendar syncing? Any others? I like having a central server.

dchest 3y ago
For calendars and contacts you can try Radicale if you don't need web access: https://radicale.org/v3.html https://radicale.org/v3.html
- charles_f 3y ago
  you can drop infCloud on top of any caldav/cardav to get a UI. I've been using it with radical for a while.
MoSattler 3y ago
A few years back I used to use SyncThing + DecSync for that purpose, and it worked quite well. Looks like it hasn't been updated in a while though. https://github.com/39aldo39/DecSync https://github.com/39aldo39/DecSync
willyt 3y ago
https://nextcloudpi.com https://nextcloudpi.com might do it for you. I've been running it on raspberry pi 4 with a Samsung 1tb usb3 ssd for a year or two with no problems that weren't solved by turning it off and on again...yet.
johnsea 3y ago
What is an ultra-cheap tiny server? Maybe a CX21 (6.37 €/mth) at https://www.hetzner.com/de/cloud https://www.hetzner.com/de/cloud would fit. There are Docker images and you only need to install the NextCloud AIO. Super simple. Upgrade is also simple (we only did it once and it went through perfectly). Syncthing is nice but file-sync-only.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

bityard 3y ago

I've been running Nextcloud for family collaboration purposes since before the fork from Owncloud. I've been pretty happy with it overall. My biggest gripe with it is the increasing schizophrenia of the UX devs. One thing I _loved_ about Nextcloud was that they paid a lot of attention to making it easy to navigate and use. The newer UX "enhancements" seem to be all about maximizing (useless) whitespace and making every widget as spherical as possible. The calendar UI used to be a joy to use, now it's the most frustrating calendar I have ever seen. On the plus side, if you're using the docker image, upgrades are a breeze. Just bump the tag on the image, redeploy, and you're done. (It did take a _lot_ of effort to migrating my existing data to the docker container, though.) I also use Roundcube as my main email client. I've looked at bunches of them, but Roundcube is the closest thing to a web-based Thunderbird that I have seen. Unfortunately, this had a UI "update" too and now practically nothing can be customized the way I prefer. If someone forks Roundcube and brings back the old theme, I will switch to it tomorrow.

TheCapeGreek 3y ago
>On the plus side, if you're using the docker image, upgrades are a breeze. Just bump the tag on the image, redeploy, and you're done. (It did take a _lot_ of effort to migrating my existing data to the docker container, though.) As much as people rag on Snap, Nextcloud being available on it is also super convenient if one doesn't feel like using Docker.
justsomehnguy 3y ago
> It did take a _lot_ of effort to migrating my existing data to the docker container Or you could just use some external storage. Like SMB or something. And then you would learn what updates aren't 'a breeze'. And there is no built-in SMB support in the default container. Since I'm running it since OwnCloud days too, I have an opinion on it and it's Not. Good. Desktop client for Windows is miserable and sucks: a) you have something with a name longer than 30 symbols? You know need to guess what the full path of that file in the error log b) this is like 4th year when you have an option to see the errors in a separate window, except it's... empty. Not an empty error log, it' empty window c) Oh, best part: if the client decided to update it would kill your Explorer first (like -9), install the it's shit and then... force reboot your machine without any questions d) when you click on the client icon in the notification area it shows multiple icons what you would thing would do something. Except it's just opens the web-interface of the instance For years mobile client couldn't work properly with a self-signed certs, which is quite ludicrous for a solution boasted as the pinnacle of self-hosting. UI overall is shit, it's a legacy of early 2010 concepts with Googlisation on every not needed aspect. And just outright stupid ideas, which 2.5 developers at NextCloud couldn't test, like littering EVERY (sorry for caps) folder you navigate through the web interface with README.md. And shitting bricks on non case sensitive mounts, because yes, it's hard. Server side is always running to pump out new versions, while abandoning and deprecating addons. Oh, addon you are using is now deprecated, besides being made a mere year ago? Tough luck. Stay on the supported NC version. Except it's not supported anymore because it's a year old now version. Oh, since 2016 it's no longer a file syncing solution, it's collaboration software or even groupware. That means there are now office suite, chat, contact lists and whatever else, including an email client. This also explains why did NC 'bought' RC. Except all those parts are not integrated good. And finally it's a PHP app with a tons of legacy code. As soon as something breaks you are drowning in multiple screen heights of errors of PHP code. And consequently all performance troubles are solved by throwing RAM and CPU at the instance. /rant

throw555chip 3y ago

Meanwhile on Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/selfhosted/comments/186g3ak/owncloud_vulnerability_with_maximum_10_severity/ https://www.reddit.com/r/selfhosted/comments/186g3ak/ownclou... What are the odds, a positive article relating to Nextcloud posted on HN the same day a negative article is posted about Owncloud on Reddit.

downrightmike 3y ago
Good job Nextcloud marketing team. Probably just pushed up the announcement
- jospoortvliet 3y ago
  Ha, I wish. Been working on this for weeks, it's even a little annoying oC kind'a pooped on the party by having that massive security hole...

ape4 3y ago

Roundcube had a recent CVE. If a user just read a mail they would get hit, ouch. https://www.cvedetails.com/vulnerability-list/vendor_id-8905/Roundcube.html https://www.cvedetails.com/vulnerability-list/vendor_id-8905...

ale42 3y ago
If I remember well Outlook (or was it Outlook express?) used to do something very similar (speaking of 15 years ago or so), except it was infecting your local PC instead of the web server.

AndroTux 3y ago

Speaking of Roundcube: If you're hosting it without apache (as in: without htaccess support), make sure the logs directory and files aren't exposed publicly. They can contain access tokens and even encrypted passwords (encrypted with a default password unless manually changed during installation), and follow a known file structure, so it's quite common for people to get owned this way.

figmert 3y ago
> ~~If you're hosting it without apache (as in: without htaccess support),~~ make sure the logs directory and files aren't exposed publicly. Never expose any logs to strangers for anything anywhere
- AndroTux 3y ago
  Sure, that’s always sound advice. However, most projects are usually designed in a way that their logs are either not exposed at all (due to not being in the webroot for example), or have measurements in place to avoid exposing them (like WordPress for example). Roundcube just puts them there and you have to actively think about excluding them from your webserver configuration. Plus, they dump really sensitive information in there by default. That’s why I wanted to explicitly point it out in this case.
  - crtasm 3y ago
    Can you configure Roundcube to store them outside the webroot?
    - iggldiggl 3y ago
      If you're running Roundcube on its own subdomain, you just set the webroot to the "public_html" subfolder and then nothing else is accessible.

ekianjo 3y ago

why use the phoronix link when the original source has much more info? https://nextcloud.com/blog/open-source-email-pioneer-roundcube-comes-aboard-nextcloud/ https://nextcloud.com/blog/open-source-email-pioneer-roundcu...

charles_f 3y ago

Since we're talking about email, contacts, calendars and files, thought it might be useful to summarize what I tried and landed on. Note that I'm only using it for my own personal setup, not shared with a company: - SyncThing - current solution for some of the filesync I'm doing (mainly personal projects). I have a small server at home that works well as an "always on" client that I can access. - OwnCloud - used to use it for files, cal and contacts. It's much lighter than NextCloud, pretty easy to setup. I've had corruption issues with the files, which arguably might have been my configuration - and made me leave it behind - Radicale + infCloud - Used it for a while for contacts and calendar. It's working well, and the API being carddav+caldav, you can use anything you want to sync. The main issue I had was that you can't sent and invite, which is a hassle. - NextCloud - current solution for calendar and contacts. I'm using it mainly because my shared hosting is providing an instance with my contract, and they handle backups. I don't like the UI much, it's slow and a bit clunky, I mainly use it when I want to invite someone. I don't use files. I tried using their mail solution but never made it work. I'm using Davx5 to sync on my phone, and the carddav/caldav sync on mac. I may be moving at some point. - Rainloop - very good alternative to roundcube. My only grief with it is that I never figured how to search across folders. - Roundcube - pretty good, and lots of plugins you can use to make it do what you want. - Also used a simple SSH + SCP client to do file sync'ing. I'm just hesitant with that, since someone getting access would mean full access to the server.

jospoortvliet 3y ago
You might like to hear that in the upcoming release we re-wrote the front-end of Files, that'll be snappier. Hope it'll work well for you!

awill 3y ago

this isn't good for anyone but Roundcube investors. Roundcube is a well-liked product. Nextcloud is a PHP app with all kinds of security holes.

stracer 3y ago
By that logic, it should be good for Nextcloud investors.
- jospoortvliet 3y ago
  The good news is that neither has investors... With regards to security, nothing is perfect but I'm absolutely positive that Nextcloud is ahead of the vast majority of open source projects. And if you know of a security hole, go and collect your USD 10K at HackerOne.
  - johnsea 3y ago
    True. I don't know of any other "holistic" project that we could have choosen instead of Nextcloud. One very very important point is the AIO installation method. So easy and no fear to have forgotten something important. -- You saved us from Google (no way) and Microsoft365 (a possibility), thank you!

poisonborz 3y ago

Oh no... Roundube was the top selfhosted email client. Nextcloud is great, but having everything and the kitchen sink maintained within and by it is worrying.

dugite-code 3y ago
Roundcube is still to be it's own separate project. Besides Nextcloud already has it's own webmail client. I imagine they might make it easier to install Roundcube as an APP though. The the existing implementation (that doesn't work for the latest Nextcloud anyway) requires an existing separate Roundcube installation.

sylware 3y ago

Do they have a noscript/basic (x)html portal?

butz 3y ago

It would be nice if Nextcloud would come in small modules, and one could effectively run only webmail, and add more features in the future on demand. Having everything in one just increases attack surface and makes more work managing it all.

jospoortvliet 3y ago
I have good news for you: https://apps.nextcloud.com https://apps.nextcloud.com Nextcloud is nothing more than a collection of small apps. You can disable even core things like sharing.

germandiago 3y ago

How does NextCloud compare to Sandstorm? It is the same kind of thing? What are the best alternatives to Sandstorm?

ocdtrekkie 3y ago
Sandstorm is an app platform that lets you install various apps within it, but doesn't have a lot of built-in functionality. Nextcloud is more of an all-in-one-kit solution, though it does also have an app store. It would not really make sense to put Nextcloud inside a Sandstorm app because it is too bulky, but you would need a suite of other Sandstorm apps to do what Nextcloud does. Very different approaches to a similar thing. Upsides and downsides to each approach.

Psychoshy_bc1q 3y ago

nextcloud is great but painfully slow, they should use something modern instead of ancient shit like php

dugite-code 3y ago
PHP has come a long way since the PHP5 days, PHP8+ is a modern reliable and performant language.

1letterunixname 3y ago

For a while, Zimbra was the most viable webmail alternative to Outlook. Zimbra was passed around like a hot potato, and I'm not even sure who owns it now.