14 ms·

Prison is supposed to be rehabilitation, not a self-funding machine.

csallen 3y ago
Has it not occurred to you that, if we want people to become productive working members of society, that perhaps allowing them to learn and work from prison might be rehabilitative?
- hutzlibu 3y ago
  I don't think he negated that and just stated that the funds to do so should mostly come from somewhere else - otherwise there is motivation to exploit the prisoners.
- hsbauauvhabzb 3y ago
  Perhaps you misinterpreted my comments, $7/hour for calls where the money is used to provide better meals implies that without additional funding the meals would not be at an acceptable level.
  - thfuran 3y ago
    No, it only implies that the budget is currently structured to offload the costs of running the prison onto the prisoners.
JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> Prison is supposed to be rehabilitation That’s one part. The others are deterrence, incapacitation, retribution and restitution [1]. Letting prisoner’s work aids rehabilitation. Letting them earn further aids restitution. [1] https://open.lib.umn.edu/criminallaw/chapter/1-5-the-purposes-of-punishment/ https://open.lib.umn.edu/criminallaw/chapter/1-5-the-purpose...
- mlyle 3y ago
  > Letting them earn further aids restitution. These things have a balance, though. If you're planning on letting people out of prison one day (i.e. if they don't have a life sentence)... And it's punitive to the point that familial relations break and people lose what little support network they have and ability to live outside of prison... You can expect they're going to show back right up where they started. In which case, by facilitating repeated recidivism, you've neutered deterrence, incapacitation and left them unable to make meaningful restitution.
  - arlcode 3y ago
    Even for life sentences I believe it makes sense to have prisoners work and earn some small privileges inside. For one its possible to encourage good behaviour by threatening to take it away but also because a sense of purpose and achievement is important for a healthy mental state. That's true for incarcerated people as well and a stable population reduces enforcement costs and churn among the guard personal.
    - mlyle 3y ago
      No one's arguing with that (though, of course, the devil is in the details...) Just, the combination of: - Denying people the practical ability to contact their loved ones except by phone - Charging a price that is very high compared to outside rates for this contact (prohibitively so) - Paying prisoners a tiny fraction of outside rates, such that - Only people who can depend upon money coming from outside can contact family is both cruel and probably increases recidivism.
- KennyBlanken 3y ago
  ...according to one textbook, in one country, that happens to have the largest prison population in the world both per capita and in total. > Retribution prevents future crime by removing the desire for personal avengement (in the form of assault, battery, and criminal homicide, for example) against the defendant. When victims or society discover that the defendant has been adequately punished for a crime, they achieve a certain satisfaction that our criminal procedure is working effectively, which enhances faith in law enforcement and our government. And yet when victims and victim families are interviewed on this subject, most of them aren't terribly satisfied by criminals being "punished." What they typically care about is that the person won't harm others, and that's where rehabilitation comes in.
Eumenes 3y ago
It also means you lose alot of freedom and privileges, including unlimited cell phone minutes and leisurely calls with your friends/family.

Has it not occurred to you that, if we want people to become productive working members of society, that perhaps allowing them to learn and work from prison might be rehabilitative?

hutzlibu 3y ago
I don't think he negated that and just stated that the funds to do so should mostly come from somewhere else - otherwise there is motivation to exploit the prisoners.
hsbauauvhabzb 3y ago
Perhaps you misinterpreted my comments, $7/hour for calls where the money is used to provide better meals implies that without additional funding the meals would not be at an acceptable level.
- thfuran 3y ago
  No, it only implies that the budget is currently structured to offload the costs of running the prison onto the prisoners.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> Prison is supposed to be rehabilitation That’s one part. The others are deterrence, incapacitation, retribution and restitution [1]. Letting prisoner’s work aids rehabilitation. Letting them earn further aids restitution. [1] https://open.lib.umn.edu/criminallaw/chapter/1-5-the-purposes-of-punishment/ https://open.lib.umn.edu/criminallaw/chapter/1-5-the-purpose...

mlyle 3y ago
> Letting them earn further aids restitution. These things have a balance, though. If you're planning on letting people out of prison one day (i.e. if they don't have a life sentence)... And it's punitive to the point that familial relations break and people lose what little support network they have and ability to live outside of prison... You can expect they're going to show back right up where they started. In which case, by facilitating repeated recidivism, you've neutered deterrence, incapacitation and left them unable to make meaningful restitution.
- arlcode 3y ago
  Even for life sentences I believe it makes sense to have prisoners work and earn some small privileges inside. For one its possible to encourage good behaviour by threatening to take it away but also because a sense of purpose and achievement is important for a healthy mental state. That's true for incarcerated people as well and a stable population reduces enforcement costs and churn among the guard personal.
  - mlyle 3y ago
    No one's arguing with that (though, of course, the devil is in the details...) Just, the combination of: - Denying people the practical ability to contact their loved ones except by phone - Charging a price that is very high compared to outside rates for this contact (prohibitively so) - Paying prisoners a tiny fraction of outside rates, such that - Only people who can depend upon money coming from outside can contact family is both cruel and probably increases recidivism.
KennyBlanken 3y ago
...according to one textbook, in one country, that happens to have the largest prison population in the world both per capita and in total. > Retribution prevents future crime by removing the desire for personal avengement (in the form of assault, battery, and criminal homicide, for example) against the defendant. When victims or society discover that the defendant has been adequately punished for a crime, they achieve a certain satisfaction that our criminal procedure is working effectively, which enhances faith in law enforcement and our government. And yet when victims and victim families are interviewed on this subject, most of them aren't terribly satisfied by criminals being "punished." What they typically care about is that the person won't harm others, and that's where rehabilitation comes in.

Eumenes 3y ago

It also means you lose alot of freedom and privileges, including unlimited cell phone minutes and leisurely calls with your friends/family.