5 ms·

> Housing Costs Are So High They left out the "in the trendy, inner city areas we want to live in" part. Because whilst housing prices are rising in cities we

> Housing Costs Are So High They left out the "in the trendy, inner city areas we want to live in" part. Because whilst housing prices are rising in cities we are also seeing major declines in populations for smaller towns. And whilst our parents were willing to sacrifice and embrace these towns which in turn became gentrified it doesn't seem current generations feel the same way.

robjan 3y ago
The work is in the cities
- ethanwillis 3y ago
  Even if it is it doesn't invalidate the argument. Outside my "city" you can get housing for much much cheaper and have the same commute as if you lived in the city itself. But at some point you're going to have to give up this notion that population density can be made infinite. At some point you can't simply cram more "work" into a city.
  - Pet_Ant 3y ago
    > But at some point you're going to have to give up this notion that population density can be made infinite. Tokyo, Beijing, Hong Kong, and Singapore would like to have a word with you.
    - mlinhares 3y ago
      Or any big city in Europe? Sometimes I wonder if Americans travel out of the US at all.
      - RestlessMind 3y ago
        > Or any big city in Europe? Many big cities in Europe are having housing crises of their own - Lisbon, Amsterdam, London etc. Just today, there was this thread bemoaning the housing situation in Netherlands - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38444948 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38444948 > Sometimes I wonder if Americans travel out of the US at all. Sometimes I wonder if people know real facts about Europe or just have some rosy imagination or generalize some tiny corner to the entire continent.
        mlinhares 3y ago
        And they're still better than most cities in the US in terms of housing, density, and infrastructure. With its half-million population, Lisbon has better public transportation than my lovely Philadelphia, with its joke subway with two lines. I'd bet Lisbon's trolleys have better coverage than SEPTA has for the whole city in PHL. And, mind you, Lisbon is among the poorest capitals in the European Union. I could easily live in Lisbon right now if it wasn't for the low EU salaries (and my wife really loving being in the US). My goal is still to claim my citizenship and retire there eventually or in Porto. And I'm not even considering the really good infrastructure places, like Madrid, with its circular subways (two lines). The wealthiest country in the world must do better.
        RestlessMind 3y ago
        Context of the discussion is that density solves the housing cost problem. I pointed out that European cities have both a high density and a serious housing problem, which is now impacting national elections (see the example I gave about Dutch elections thread). Saying they are better than the US is not really relevant to this discussion. > I could easily live in Lisbon right now if it wasn't for the low EU salaries (and my wife really loving being in the US). Exactly my point. Lisbon has all the goodies you mentioned (I too liked it when I visited) and yet one needs a US salary to afford a decent house there. Not possible on the median local salary.
  - mlinhares 3y ago
    Dude, when NYC has half the density of Paris, there is so much more density to be added to cities in the US. And this isn't building skyscrapers all around. It is building those 4/5/6 levels apartment buildings all over the place, most with some businesses on ground level. There are plenty of opportunities to make these cities cheaper and more livable. What we lack here in the US is politicians who aren't sellouts.
    - tomjakubowski 3y ago
      I'm curious if those population density stats account for land used for parks. NYC has 4x the park land area of Paris (12,000 ha. to 3,000). In NYC parks are 14% of the city's land area, so it can't account for the whole discrepancy, but it's something!
xutopia 3y ago
That's disingenuous to some extent. Housing is beyond reach for many folks nowadays and jobs don't follow in the smaller towns you mention and you'd put yourself at risk of being surrounded by no one your age. Of course people want to live close to their social circle.
- threeseed 3y ago
  Housing is significantly more affordable outside inner city suburbs. And of course everyone wants to live close to their social circle. I want to live in a mansion by the beach. But sometimes in life you have to make compromises especially when you're young and that includes working your way up the property ladder.
  - epicureanideal 3y ago
    Anywhere within an hour drive of the SF Bay Area is hugely expensive. Most of California is expensive even away from the big cities. Sacramento is expensive now.
  - slymon99 3y ago
    Comparing living near jobs and quality schools to living by a mansion on the beach is quite unfair - people don't solely desire the luxury of cities, they desire the opportunity for themselves and their families. "Working your way up the property ladder"? The median sale price for a house in Westchester County, NY is seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars. With insurance and property taxes and the current interest rate, that's over six grand a month. That's a hair shy of the US median household income (before taxes!). How exactly is a person ever supposed to afford that?
    - ipaddr 3y ago
      They get in for a small %. Hold for a few years than sell for 1,000,000. They get a loan from parents They rent out their basement They partner up. They buy the lower priced 600,000 home and make repairs themselves.
  - 3y ago
faeriechangling 3y ago
As energy costs go up the cost of living rural not accounting for housing goes up relative to urban life. It’s not as if urbanization is driven by collective stupidity.
slymon99 3y ago
Cities have jobs. Cities have opportunity. Cities have diversity. Why should we expect, encourage, or even desire that young people sacrifice economic and social opportunity and mobility? Why is the response to high housing cost in cities lecturing "current generations" about their choices? There are glaringly obvious problems in many of our cities that make housing so expensive. Is it so outrageous to try to solve those problems, and allow people to be able to live where they want to live?
- threeseed 3y ago
  Housing prices in cities are rising across the world. And it's all driven by simple economics. Demand is increasing faster than supply. Now if young people want to participate in this market then all the best to them. I'm not stopping them. But statistically they have less purchasing power and demanding that the entire world ignore that fact is not realistic.
- 4death4 3y ago
  But why do cities have all the opportunity? Most likely because the capital owning class lives in cities and has been systematically draining wealth from more rural areas via globalization and the erosion of workers' rights. I'm not saying young professionals need to concern themselves with such lofty ideals, but I do think it's a valid to question why there are only a few pockets of opportunity left in the country.
  - slymon99 3y ago
    Exactly what wealth are cities draining from rural America? Is it possible there's a simpler explanation? That the economy of the twenty-first century is dominated by information and technology, and that these demands are better matched to the agglomeration affects of true urban density, where the best and brightest can learn from each other?
    - nobodyandproud 3y ago
      I cannot find this reference now—I want to say ancient, possibly Roman—but cities have a brain-drain effect and lead specialization; whereas rural individuals have to do many things in order survive.
keep_reading 3y ago
Nobody wants to live in the Hoovervilles
lmm 3y ago
> our parents were willing to sacrifice and embrace these towns Nope, they moved where the jobs were, same as the current generation. The difference is that back in the old days it was legal to build new housing rather than the ponzi scheme house price system that the older generation has voted for.
brailsafe 3y ago
> And whilst our parents were willing to sacrifice and embrace these towns which in turn became gentrified it doesn't seem current generations feel the same way. Many of them are/were also simply anti-social, racist, or just moved where they could plausibly drive to a job, and then kept that job for eternity, depending on what generation and which geography they come from, and for some of those, that actually meant moving to the areas we want to live in too, but can't because they all own it and the local government. Although some people aren't willing to sacrifice certain luxuries, I don't know that living approximately where you already live and work is one of those. This idea comes up all the time of "just move to some arbitrary cheaper place" but the reality is that the overwhelming majority of those places require cars, and are quite isolated. Much of the time the difference in cost is made up in property taxes anyway, because the place is so low-density it can distribute the cost of the town's maintenance in an effective way. It turns out that places that people want to live, much of the time, are places where other people live, for all sorts of practical and spiritual reasons, rather than in the woods
ericskiff 3y ago
While intuitive, this does not seem to be supported by facts https://ipropertymanagement.com/research/renting-statistics https://ipropertymanagement.com/research/renting-statistics If your thesis were true, we might expect rent to be roughly stable and similar to inflation over the past few years as they drop in some regions and rise in others. Instead, national average asking rent has well outpaced inflation. There are a number of trends which you could point to as possible factors (The rise of AirBnB, large companies buying up properties to rent, etc) but it seems the key issue is a fundamental lack of supply which is driving housing prices upwards, pricing out buyers and increasing the pool of renters. https://www.realtor.com/research/us-housing-supply-gap-march-2023/ https://www.realtor.com/research/us-housing-supply-gap-march... Since the 2005-2008 housing crisis, new household formation has outpaced single family home construction significantly each year. We're near all-time vacancy lows for both buyers and renters. A free market should eventually seize the opportunity to build to meet that demand (and new home starts are up this year finally) but the housing crisis caused long-term shifts in the industry which will take time to recover, and then supply chain problems during Covid caused massive material cost spikes which further delayed construction.
seized 3y ago
If your parents live in the city then it often makes sense to pay the high cost of living in exchange for the family support, free child care, etc.
soupfordummies 3y ago
Housing is also expensive an hour out from the cities. Why doesn't everyone just move out into the middle of nowhere where it's affordable? Probably because there's not many jobs there?

robjan 3y ago

The work is in the cities

ethanwillis 3y ago
Even if it is it doesn't invalidate the argument. Outside my "city" you can get housing for much much cheaper and have the same commute as if you lived in the city itself. But at some point you're going to have to give up this notion that population density can be made infinite. At some point you can't simply cram more "work" into a city.
- Pet_Ant 3y ago
  > But at some point you're going to have to give up this notion that population density can be made infinite. Tokyo, Beijing, Hong Kong, and Singapore would like to have a word with you.
  - mlinhares 3y ago
    Or any big city in Europe? Sometimes I wonder if Americans travel out of the US at all.
    - RestlessMind 3y ago
      > Or any big city in Europe? Many big cities in Europe are having housing crises of their own - Lisbon, Amsterdam, London etc. Just today, there was this thread bemoaning the housing situation in Netherlands - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38444948 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38444948 > Sometimes I wonder if Americans travel out of the US at all. Sometimes I wonder if people know real facts about Europe or just have some rosy imagination or generalize some tiny corner to the entire continent.
      - mlinhares 3y ago
        And they're still better than most cities in the US in terms of housing, density, and infrastructure. With its half-million population, Lisbon has better public transportation than my lovely Philadelphia, with its joke subway with two lines. I'd bet Lisbon's trolleys have better coverage than SEPTA has for the whole city in PHL. And, mind you, Lisbon is among the poorest capitals in the European Union. I could easily live in Lisbon right now if it wasn't for the low EU salaries (and my wife really loving being in the US). My goal is still to claim my citizenship and retire there eventually or in Porto. And I'm not even considering the really good infrastructure places, like Madrid, with its circular subways (two lines). The wealthiest country in the world must do better.
        RestlessMind 3y ago
        Context of the discussion is that density solves the housing cost problem. I pointed out that European cities have both a high density and a serious housing problem, which is now impacting national elections (see the example I gave about Dutch elections thread). Saying they are better than the US is not really relevant to this discussion. > I could easily live in Lisbon right now if it wasn't for the low EU salaries (and my wife really loving being in the US). Exactly my point. Lisbon has all the goodies you mentioned (I too liked it when I visited) and yet one needs a US salary to afford a decent house there. Not possible on the median local salary.
- mlinhares 3y ago
  Dude, when NYC has half the density of Paris, there is so much more density to be added to cities in the US. And this isn't building skyscrapers all around. It is building those 4/5/6 levels apartment buildings all over the place, most with some businesses on ground level. There are plenty of opportunities to make these cities cheaper and more livable. What we lack here in the US is politicians who aren't sellouts.
  - tomjakubowski 3y ago
    I'm curious if those population density stats account for land used for parks. NYC has 4x the park land area of Paris (12,000 ha. to 3,000). In NYC parks are 14% of the city's land area, so it can't account for the whole discrepancy, but it's something!

xutopia 3y ago

That's disingenuous to some extent. Housing is beyond reach for many folks nowadays and jobs don't follow in the smaller towns you mention and you'd put yourself at risk of being surrounded by no one your age. Of course people want to live close to their social circle.

threeseed 3y ago
Housing is significantly more affordable outside inner city suburbs. And of course everyone wants to live close to their social circle. I want to live in a mansion by the beach. But sometimes in life you have to make compromises especially when you're young and that includes working your way up the property ladder.
- epicureanideal 3y ago
  Anywhere within an hour drive of the SF Bay Area is hugely expensive. Most of California is expensive even away from the big cities. Sacramento is expensive now.
- slymon99 3y ago
  Comparing living near jobs and quality schools to living by a mansion on the beach is quite unfair - people don't solely desire the luxury of cities, they desire the opportunity for themselves and their families. "Working your way up the property ladder"? The median sale price for a house in Westchester County, NY is seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars. With insurance and property taxes and the current interest rate, that's over six grand a month. That's a hair shy of the US median household income (before taxes!). How exactly is a person ever supposed to afford that?
  - ipaddr 3y ago
    They get in for a small %. Hold for a few years than sell for 1,000,000. They get a loan from parents They rent out their basement They partner up. They buy the lower priced 600,000 home and make repairs themselves.
- 3y ago

faeriechangling 3y ago

As energy costs go up the cost of living rural not accounting for housing goes up relative to urban life. It’s not as if urbanization is driven by collective stupidity.

slymon99 3y ago

Cities have jobs. Cities have opportunity. Cities have diversity. Why should we expect, encourage, or even desire that young people sacrifice economic and social opportunity and mobility? Why is the response to high housing cost in cities lecturing "current generations" about their choices? There are glaringly obvious problems in many of our cities that make housing so expensive. Is it so outrageous to try to solve those problems, and allow people to be able to live where they want to live?

threeseed 3y ago
Housing prices in cities are rising across the world. And it's all driven by simple economics. Demand is increasing faster than supply. Now if young people want to participate in this market then all the best to them. I'm not stopping them. But statistically they have less purchasing power and demanding that the entire world ignore that fact is not realistic.
4death4 3y ago
But why do cities have all the opportunity? Most likely because the capital owning class lives in cities and has been systematically draining wealth from more rural areas via globalization and the erosion of workers' rights. I'm not saying young professionals need to concern themselves with such lofty ideals, but I do think it's a valid to question why there are only a few pockets of opportunity left in the country.
- slymon99 3y ago
  Exactly what wealth are cities draining from rural America? Is it possible there's a simpler explanation? That the economy of the twenty-first century is dominated by information and technology, and that these demands are better matched to the agglomeration affects of true urban density, where the best and brightest can learn from each other?
  - nobodyandproud 3y ago
    I cannot find this reference now—I want to say ancient, possibly Roman—but cities have a brain-drain effect and lead specialization; whereas rural individuals have to do many things in order survive.

keep_reading 3y ago

Nobody wants to live in the Hoovervilles

lmm 3y ago

> our parents were willing to sacrifice and embrace these towns Nope, they moved where the jobs were, same as the current generation. The difference is that back in the old days it was legal to build new housing rather than the ponzi scheme house price system that the older generation has voted for.

brailsafe 3y ago

> And whilst our parents were willing to sacrifice and embrace these towns which in turn became gentrified it doesn't seem current generations feel the same way. Many of them are/were also simply anti-social, racist, or just moved where they could plausibly drive to a job, and then kept that job for eternity, depending on what generation and which geography they come from, and for some of those, that actually meant moving to the areas we want to live in too, but can't because they all own it and the local government. Although some people aren't willing to sacrifice certain luxuries, I don't know that living approximately where you already live and work is one of those. This idea comes up all the time of "just move to some arbitrary cheaper place" but the reality is that the overwhelming majority of those places require cars, and are quite isolated. Much of the time the difference in cost is made up in property taxes anyway, because the place is so low-density it can distribute the cost of the town's maintenance in an effective way. It turns out that places that people want to live, much of the time, are places where other people live, for all sorts of practical and spiritual reasons, rather than in the woods

ericskiff 3y ago

While intuitive, this does not seem to be supported by facts https://ipropertymanagement.com/research/renting-statistics https://ipropertymanagement.com/research/renting-statistics If your thesis were true, we might expect rent to be roughly stable and similar to inflation over the past few years as they drop in some regions and rise in others. Instead, national average asking rent has well outpaced inflation. There are a number of trends which you could point to as possible factors (The rise of AirBnB, large companies buying up properties to rent, etc) but it seems the key issue is a fundamental lack of supply which is driving housing prices upwards, pricing out buyers and increasing the pool of renters. https://www.realtor.com/research/us-housing-supply-gap-march-2023/ https://www.realtor.com/research/us-housing-supply-gap-march... Since the 2005-2008 housing crisis, new household formation has outpaced single family home construction significantly each year. We're near all-time vacancy lows for both buyers and renters. A free market should eventually seize the opportunity to build to meet that demand (and new home starts are up this year finally) but the housing crisis caused long-term shifts in the industry which will take time to recover, and then supply chain problems during Covid caused massive material cost spikes which further delayed construction.

seized 3y ago

If your parents live in the city then it often makes sense to pay the high cost of living in exchange for the family support, free child care, etc.

soupfordummies 3y ago

Housing is also expensive an hour out from the cities. Why doesn't everyone just move out into the middle of nowhere where it's affordable? Probably because there's not many jobs there?