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The correct response should have been a measured hunting down of Hamas, increasing offensive attacks, and shoring up the wall. The attacks also proved that Isra

The correct response should have been a measured hunting down of Hamas, increasing offensive attacks, and shoring up the wall. The attacks also proved that Israel's "containment" strategy has a massive flaw. Maybe don't do this: > At least 43% of all housing units in the Gaza Strip have been either destroyed or damaged since the start of the hostilities, according to the Ministry of Public Works and Housing in Gaza. Or this: > More than 6,500 people have been killed in Israeli air strikes and more than 17,400 injured. Not only was what it did morally wrong, but Israel has just created a generation of martyrs. It has created a humanitarian crisis for over 2 million people. Over 3000 children dead. Is that justified? Or is it a tantrum? The one thing that I think has changed between now and the last time there was a major conflict is that the internet exists. The news media is not the final arbiter of mass information. If someone, like you, challenges people by saying "it's complicated" or "those numbers are fake", I can easily point to wikipedia and a dearth of well respected and in depth research websites. It's a new world. People who have unconditional support of Israel are now finding themselves having this information repeatedly thrown in their face, causing them to topple off of the moral high ground they believed they held. What you are feeling is likely this. Can you remember the last time the public was so largely outraged by Israel's actions? Did it ever have this tenor? Did western countries' support waver? If "young people" is your answer, then you are about to be blindsided.

LAC-Tech 3y ago
The one thing that I think has changed between now and the last time there was a major conflict is that the internet exists. I would put it slightly differently. News has been more democratised - and we can argue whether that's good or bad - but people are more and more compiling their own version of events rather than relying on a tiny handful of elite journalists at prestigious institutions to compile it for them. There are also now a lot of English speaking Arabs online, which means their voices are heard more and more often.
- parl_match 3y ago
  I was being more broad, but yeah, I generally agree. It also has weakened the voice of a mainstream narrative from western powers (particularly the US gov). Actually, and this is an aside, one of the reasons there's been such dissonance from western countries on this issue is the US' power has had a marked decrease since the Iraq Invasion. An invasion that was part of a long tantrum response to another atrocity. History repeats itself.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
ashirusnw 3y ago
You say "The attacks also proved that Israel's "containment" strategy has a massive flaw." ... and then go on to describe the containment strategy that they've tried since 2005. The reality is that after Hamas' declaration of war, war was a terrible necessity. The extent of that necessity will be debated until the end of time, but I haven't seen the large public outrage that you describe. Yes, there's plenty of it, but as a whole just as much understanding of Israel's position and why so many civilians in Gaza died in the bombings.
- parl_match 3y ago
  The reality is that 3000 innocent children are dead. The reality is that many more innocent adults are dead. The reality is that almost a third of Palestinian housing is unlivable. The reality is that 2,000,000 people are now in a humanitarian crisis, due to IDF attacks. You can waffle about if it was or wasn't necessary, but the end result is that Israel is, if nothing else, facing a massive blow to public and western support as a result of their response - a response which seems more punitive than effective. This is incredibly dangerous for Israel, and what they've done may have hurt them in the long term more than help them. The American invasion of Iraq or Afghanistan has some parallels.... I don't have all the answers, I just call it like I see it.
  - ashirusnw 3y ago
    I'm not sure what you've added to your original comment
    - parl_match 3y ago
      I don't think there was much more to add, tbh.
  - Aeolun 3y ago
    I dunno, in the end the solution to a lot of people hurt certainly isn’t a lot more people hurt. Which seems to be what is happening now.
  - 3y ago
Aeolun 3y ago
> Israel has just created a generation of martyrs Israel has been creating martyrs for ages. Even if they stopped now they’d deal with the problem for the next 20 years, and rightly so.
phpisthebest 3y ago
[flagged]
- zogrodea 3y ago
  > the entire educational system of Gaza is dedicated to bringing their children up in a way that makes them hate all Jews https://www.reddit.com/r/AskMiddleEast/comments/17r1xhs/israeli_children_writing_messages_on_missiles/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AskMiddleEast/comments/17r1xhs/isra... I don't think you are right here. Hamas did once have an anti-Jew mentality, but that's not the case anymore because innocent Palestinian Jews are facing oppression from Israel too.
- parl_match 3y ago
  > Well the mainstream media is normally on the anti-Israel side This is fundamentally not true. In fact, media figures in the 2010s lost their jobs for supporting Palestine. > Also citing Wikipedia as your bastion of respected information is laughable It's well cited and provides tables that show the different claims between different forces (Hamas, IDF, US, independent NGOs). Who do you uncritically believe?
303uru 3y ago
>created a generation of martyrs Ding ding ding. The reality is it's already here. What the US did in Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan. What Israel has been doing in Palestine. Why do you think the median age in Palestine 19 years of age? How do you think that affects a population. I don't think I would have responded to well at that age to being behind a fence watching the other side luxuriate in wealth while controlling my movement, access to resources and all the while actively chipping away at my homeland either. Ceasefire isn't enough, these people need resources, access to education, etc...
- HDThoreaun 3y ago
  > Why do you think the median age in Palestine 19 years of age? Well this is because Hamas has a very explicit policy goal of massively increasing their population to make it harder for Israel to kick them out. Their birth rate is madness.
lsaac 3y ago
There aren't actually 2 million people in Gaza. You can google their (mis)-counting tactics e.g not deducting those who emigrate etc
- parl_match 3y ago
  Okay, tell me how many people you think there are? With 30%~ of housing destroyed, tell me if that still qualifies as a humanitarian crisis
edanm 3y ago
> The correct response should have been a measured hunting down of Hamas, increasing offensive attacks, and shoring up the wall. I don't think most people quite appreciate the situation Israel was in on October 7th, or the initial response. People think of it as a terrorist attack - it wasn't just that, it was an invasion. An invasion that was ongoing for three days almost. Together with an invasion, rockets were fired at Israel throughout those days (and throughout the entire time until the ceasefire). Israelis were glued to the TV for hours, as people were hiding in their homes while armed militants were searching them out. They were calling in to families, calling to news networks, as everyone watched them. (This was, among other things, a massive failure of the IDF's initial response, partially caused by a fairly successful attack on some of its forward bases.) This was nothing less than a declaration of war. I don't think any country in the world, having been invaded by thousands of armed militants and being fired at, could do anything except strike back massively. What's more, there were serious, concrete threats that the war would escalate. Instead of just having armed militants running around inside Israel while Israel was being shot at from inside Gaza, there were very credible threats that a multi-front war would start, which would be, at the very least, very difficult for Israel. There was probably little chance of Israel outright losing, but "a small chance we will all die" looms pretty large in your mind. I think people in the West are just too far removed from being themselves in any physical danger from war, to really appreciate how you react. And the easy way to see I'm right is that people in the West react exactly the same way when fighting wars. Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam!, if you think Israel is behaving differently than other countries did you're just unaware of any history. I don't know if the initial or ongoing response is the "correct" one, but I still haven't heard anyone saying what Israel should've done differently, at least initially. The ongoing situation is more complicated, but almost any serious person agrees that destroying Hamas is critical (and completely justified) at this stage. > The one thing that I think has changed between now and the last time there was a major conflict is that the internet exists. The news media is not the final arbiter of mass information. If someone, like you, challenges people by saying "it's complicated" or "those numbers are fake", I can easily point to wikipedia and a dearth of well respected and in depth research websites. It's a new world. Firstly, there have been many conflicts since the Web existed, including Iraq, Afghanistan, Ukraine, etc. > People who have unconditional support of Israel are now finding themselves having this information repeatedly thrown in their face, causing them to topple off of the moral high ground they believed they held. I think the media not being the "arbiter" of information doesn't make anybody more accurate, it makes everyone able to have their own version of the story. Do you know how many people on Twitter are convinced by ridiculous propaganda? I can think of numerous examples, but my latest "favorite" is the nonsense of people looking at picture of released hostages, seeing them smile and wave (while still under captivity!), and decide that they were for sure treated well. I hope they were treated well! I really do. But to conclude something so stupid, as if people had never heard of coercion, is just... truly beyond me. Every day new arguments of this kind emerge online. > Can you remember the last time the public was so largely outraged by Israel's actions? Did it ever have this tenor? Did western countries' support waver? If "young people" is your answer, then you are about to be blindsided. Unfortunately, Israel almost always has this kind of criticism. It is almost never judged the same as other countries, in my opinion. More importantly, some of this criticism started before Israel's response even began. People were calling for a ceasefire from Israel while the attack was ongoing. It's as if people already made up their mind about the situation, and nothing could change their opinion.

LAC-Tech 3y ago

The one thing that I think has changed between now and the last time there was a major conflict is that the internet exists. I would put it slightly differently. News has been more democratised - and we can argue whether that's good or bad - but people are more and more compiling their own version of events rather than relying on a tiny handful of elite journalists at prestigious institutions to compile it for them. There are also now a lot of English speaking Arabs online, which means their voices are heard more and more often.

parl_match 3y ago
I was being more broad, but yeah, I generally agree. It also has weakened the voice of a mainstream narrative from western powers (particularly the US gov). Actually, and this is an aside, one of the reasons there's been such dissonance from western countries on this issue is the US' power has had a marked decrease since the Iraq Invasion. An invasion that was part of a long tantrum response to another atrocity. History repeats itself.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

ashirusnw 3y ago

You say "The attacks also proved that Israel's "containment" strategy has a massive flaw." ... and then go on to describe the containment strategy that they've tried since 2005. The reality is that after Hamas' declaration of war, war was a terrible necessity. The extent of that necessity will be debated until the end of time, but I haven't seen the large public outrage that you describe. Yes, there's plenty of it, but as a whole just as much understanding of Israel's position and why so many civilians in Gaza died in the bombings.

parl_match 3y ago
The reality is that 3000 innocent children are dead. The reality is that many more innocent adults are dead. The reality is that almost a third of Palestinian housing is unlivable. The reality is that 2,000,000 people are now in a humanitarian crisis, due to IDF attacks. You can waffle about if it was or wasn't necessary, but the end result is that Israel is, if nothing else, facing a massive blow to public and western support as a result of their response - a response which seems more punitive than effective. This is incredibly dangerous for Israel, and what they've done may have hurt them in the long term more than help them. The American invasion of Iraq or Afghanistan has some parallels.... I don't have all the answers, I just call it like I see it.
- ashirusnw 3y ago
  I'm not sure what you've added to your original comment
  - parl_match 3y ago
    I don't think there was much more to add, tbh.
- Aeolun 3y ago
  I dunno, in the end the solution to a lot of people hurt certainly isn’t a lot more people hurt. Which seems to be what is happening now.
- 3y ago

Aeolun 3y ago

> Israel has just created a generation of martyrs Israel has been creating martyrs for ages. Even if they stopped now they’d deal with the problem for the next 20 years, and rightly so.

phpisthebest 3y ago

[flagged]

zogrodea 3y ago
> the entire educational system of Gaza is dedicated to bringing their children up in a way that makes them hate all Jews https://www.reddit.com/r/AskMiddleEast/comments/17r1xhs/israeli_children_writing_messages_on_missiles/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AskMiddleEast/comments/17r1xhs/isra... I don't think you are right here. Hamas did once have an anti-Jew mentality, but that's not the case anymore because innocent Palestinian Jews are facing oppression from Israel too.
parl_match 3y ago
> Well the mainstream media is normally on the anti-Israel side This is fundamentally not true. In fact, media figures in the 2010s lost their jobs for supporting Palestine. > Also citing Wikipedia as your bastion of respected information is laughable It's well cited and provides tables that show the different claims between different forces (Hamas, IDF, US, independent NGOs). Who do you uncritically believe?

303uru 3y ago

>created a generation of martyrs Ding ding ding. The reality is it's already here. What the US did in Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan. What Israel has been doing in Palestine. Why do you think the median age in Palestine 19 years of age? How do you think that affects a population. I don't think I would have responded to well at that age to being behind a fence watching the other side luxuriate in wealth while controlling my movement, access to resources and all the while actively chipping away at my homeland either. Ceasefire isn't enough, these people need resources, access to education, etc...

HDThoreaun 3y ago
> Why do you think the median age in Palestine 19 years of age? Well this is because Hamas has a very explicit policy goal of massively increasing their population to make it harder for Israel to kick them out. Their birth rate is madness.

lsaac 3y ago

There aren't actually 2 million people in Gaza. You can google their (mis)-counting tactics e.g not deducting those who emigrate etc

parl_match 3y ago
Okay, tell me how many people you think there are? With 30%~ of housing destroyed, tell me if that still qualifies as a humanitarian crisis

edanm 3y ago

> The correct response should have been a measured hunting down of Hamas, increasing offensive attacks, and shoring up the wall. I don't think most people quite appreciate the situation Israel was in on October 7th, or the initial response. People think of it as a terrorist attack - it wasn't just that, it was an invasion. An invasion that was ongoing for three days almost. Together with an invasion, rockets were fired at Israel throughout those days (and throughout the entire time until the ceasefire). Israelis were glued to the TV for hours, as people were hiding in their homes while armed militants were searching them out. They were calling in to families, calling to news networks, as everyone watched them. (This was, among other things, a massive failure of the IDF's initial response, partially caused by a fairly successful attack on some of its forward bases.) This was nothing less than a declaration of war. I don't think any country in the world, having been invaded by thousands of armed militants and being fired at, could do anything except strike back massively. What's more, there were serious, concrete threats that the war would escalate. Instead of just having armed militants running around inside Israel while Israel was being shot at from inside Gaza, there were very credible threats that a multi-front war would start, which would be, at the very least, very difficult for Israel. There was probably little chance of Israel outright losing, but "a small chance we will all die" looms pretty large in your mind. I think people in the West are just too far removed from being themselves in any physical danger from war, to really appreciate how you react. And the easy way to see I'm right is that people in the West react exactly the same way when fighting wars. Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam!, if you think Israel is behaving differently than other countries did you're just unaware of any history. I don't know if the initial or ongoing response is the "correct" one, but I still haven't heard anyone saying what Israel should've done differently, at least initially. The ongoing situation is more complicated, but almost any serious person agrees that destroying Hamas is critical (and completely justified) at this stage. > The one thing that I think has changed between now and the last time there was a major conflict is that the internet exists. The news media is not the final arbiter of mass information. If someone, like you, challenges people by saying "it's complicated" or "those numbers are fake", I can easily point to wikipedia and a dearth of well respected and in depth research websites. It's a new world. Firstly, there have been many conflicts since the Web existed, including Iraq, Afghanistan, Ukraine, etc. > People who have unconditional support of Israel are now finding themselves having this information repeatedly thrown in their face, causing them to topple off of the moral high ground they believed they held. I think the media not being the "arbiter" of information doesn't make anybody more accurate, it makes everyone able to have their own version of the story. Do you know how many people on Twitter are convinced by ridiculous propaganda? I can think of numerous examples, but my latest "favorite" is the nonsense of people looking at picture of released hostages, seeing them smile and wave (while still under captivity!), and decide that they were for sure treated well. I hope they were treated well! I really do. But to conclude something so stupid, as if people had never heard of coercion, is just... truly beyond me. Every day new arguments of this kind emerge online. > Can you remember the last time the public was so largely outraged by Israel's actions? Did it ever have this tenor? Did western countries' support waver? If "young people" is your answer, then you are about to be blindsided. Unfortunately, Israel almost always has this kind of criticism. It is almost never judged the same as other countries, in my opinion. More importantly, some of this criticism started before Israel's response even began. People were calling for a ceasefire from Israel while the attack was ongoing. It's as if people already made up their mind about the situation, and nothing could change their opinion.