9 ms·

This is a theater that has waitstaff that take orders and bring food and drinks to your seat as you watch the show. Don't want to tip, even though it's baked i

This is a theater that has waitstaff that take orders and bring food and drinks to your seat as you watch the show. Don't want to tip, even though it's baked into the wage calculation? That's fine. The author is just pointing out that market forces means that folks aren't going to stay in those jobs.

lotsofpulp 3y ago
> even though it's baked into the wage calculation? Then it should be next to the price on the menu: $x + minimum $y tip.
- Erratic6576 3y ago
  Shouldn’t they have to pay taxes if they printed it like that?
  - mynameishere 3y ago
    You can't avoid taxes by not printing something.
  - woodruffw 3y ago
    I don't believe retail sales tax applies to tips in most (any?) states.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - Ekaros 3y ago
      Why not? Why shouldn't sales tax or whatever tax also be fully paid for each received tip? It is not like other business gets to avoid taxes.
      - woodruffw 3y ago
        In principle: the money goes completely to the employee(s) being tipped, so it doesn’t make sense to tax the business for money it doesn’t receive.
        Ekaros 3y ago
        Why should that matter? Let's say you run software consulting. And most of the price goes to labour. Would that not mean that sales tax should only be applied to part going to business itself?
        woodruffw 3y ago
        Because sales tax is a tax on a sale, not on your employees' wages. Payroll and income tax (among others) apply to wages. Whether payroll tax applies to tips depends on the municipality, but income tax always does.
demosthanos 3y ago
In which case, the movie theater may have to switch their wage calculations to actually pay these people for the work they're doing. The up-front price for tickets might need to increase, but that's preferable to the weird layers of hidden fees in the current system. Using tips as a substitute for paying a living wage needs to be eliminated everywhere, but I especially don't blame people for not realizing that a movie theater of all places is playing that game.
- modzu 3y ago
  in canada wages have grown but tips have just grown too, so there is seemingly a stronger cultural connection and its not simply fiscal. even if everyone waiting tables was paid a 100k salary, they can't just "put away" the tip jars. im not sure how the insanity stops, maybe inflation will stop it
- fnordpiglet 3y ago
  Paying tips to a bar tender or waiter isn’t some sort of social anomaly. It’s customary. Whether that custom is wrong or not can be debated, but while it’s customary, it’s reasonable for people to expect customers to follow the custom. Going to a restaurant and tipping $2 is the sort of stuff that gets your food spit in and is reserved only for the absolute worst service - it’s worse than tipping nothing. That’s the custom, wrong or not. Trying to change a societal custom by screwing over the worker is wrong, it’s just punishing the person who can least afford your social stand against how the business pays its workers.
  - hotbshhh 3y ago
    [flagged]
  - tomrod 3y ago
    Does the same logic apply regarding which products are purchased or boycotted for a societal improvement? As a consumer, I make specific choices. If I am marketed a price, that should be inclusive. The change starts with my choices, since managers clearly are against setting high enough wages.
fullspectrumdev 3y ago
To put it simply: the wage calculation is between the company and the employee, not the customer and the employee. The company socialising their wages out to their customers via tips is fucking absurd.
- huytersd 3y ago
  Meh I hate tipping culture as much as the next person but you really can’t run, for instance a dive bar, and pay the bartender $15 an hour. The foot traffic doesn’t bring in nearly enough most of the time. The end result would just be far fewer food and drink places which I wouldn’t like.
  - ncallaway 3y ago
    If they can't bring in enough foot-traffic that they can pay a bartender $15 an hour, then how is tipping going to make up the difference? There's also not enough foot traffic to make that work
  - changoplatanero 3y ago
    That's the whole point though. If the types of restaurants that you like can't make enough money to offer jobs that workers would accept then those restaurants shouldn't exist. They can be replaced with more profitable businesses that more people will enjoy.
    - s1artibartfast 3y ago
      That begs the question about what to do when the workers will accept lower wage, and there is not a more profitable business waiting to replace it. I dont know so many people make those assumptions. If there is a more profitable buisness, why isnt it there already?
      - contravariant 3y ago
        If they are offered more than enough money to be willing to stay and there's not a more profitable business waiting to replace it, then what exactly is the problem?
huytersd 3y ago
Don’t deign to even remotely justify this tipping nonsense. People should know upfront how much they need to pay with no guilt tripping funny business. It also irks me to no end how entitled someone bringing your food out to you can be. Everyone works, no one else begs and shames people for extra money.
tomrod 3y ago
And that's okay! The wages should be increased, and tipping should be put out to pasture.
JohnFen 3y ago
> The author is just pointing out that market forces means that folks aren't going to stay in those jobs. Not tipping is effectively using those same market forces to fix the disaster that tipping has become. If folks aren't going to stay in jobs because they don't make enough money from tips, then that will pressure employers to pay people better.
- mbreese 3y ago
  > then that will pressure employers to pay people better When taken to the logical end, this is true… but who ends up getting hurt the most during the transition? The workers you ultimately want to help. I can’t see that as a good alternative.
  - genocidicbunny 3y ago
    Then that's the sad reality. We've used tips as a bandaid for low wages for too long, and now ripping the bandaid off is going to hurt. But the alternative is that the wound festers and potentially gets even worse because it's buried deep under a bandaid.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    The alternative is to maintain the status quo, and the status quo should not be maintained.
ncallaway 3y ago
> The author is just pointing out that market forces means that folks aren't going to stay in those jobs. Fun fact: that's the *business'* problem. As a customer, if you don't pay your staff, which means your business has shitty service, I'm just not going to come back. Pay your staff a living fucking wage.

lotsofpulp 3y ago

> even though it's baked into the wage calculation? Then it should be next to the price on the menu: $x + minimum $y tip.

Erratic6576 3y ago
Shouldn’t they have to pay taxes if they printed it like that?
- mynameishere 3y ago
  You can't avoid taxes by not printing something.
- woodruffw 3y ago
  I don't believe retail sales tax applies to tips in most (any?) states.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - Ekaros 3y ago
    Why not? Why shouldn't sales tax or whatever tax also be fully paid for each received tip? It is not like other business gets to avoid taxes.
    - woodruffw 3y ago
      In principle: the money goes completely to the employee(s) being tipped, so it doesn’t make sense to tax the business for money it doesn’t receive.
      - Ekaros 3y ago
        Why should that matter? Let's say you run software consulting. And most of the price goes to labour. Would that not mean that sales tax should only be applied to part going to business itself?
        woodruffw 3y ago
        Because sales tax is a tax on a sale, not on your employees' wages. Payroll and income tax (among others) apply to wages. Whether payroll tax applies to tips depends on the municipality, but income tax always does.

demosthanos 3y ago

In which case, the movie theater may have to switch their wage calculations to actually pay these people for the work they're doing. The up-front price for tickets might need to increase, but that's preferable to the weird layers of hidden fees in the current system. Using tips as a substitute for paying a living wage needs to be eliminated everywhere, but I especially don't blame people for not realizing that a movie theater of all places is playing that game.

modzu 3y ago
in canada wages have grown but tips have just grown too, so there is seemingly a stronger cultural connection and its not simply fiscal. even if everyone waiting tables was paid a 100k salary, they can't just "put away" the tip jars. im not sure how the insanity stops, maybe inflation will stop it
fnordpiglet 3y ago
Paying tips to a bar tender or waiter isn’t some sort of social anomaly. It’s customary. Whether that custom is wrong or not can be debated, but while it’s customary, it’s reasonable for people to expect customers to follow the custom. Going to a restaurant and tipping $2 is the sort of stuff that gets your food spit in and is reserved only for the absolute worst service - it’s worse than tipping nothing. That’s the custom, wrong or not. Trying to change a societal custom by screwing over the worker is wrong, it’s just punishing the person who can least afford your social stand against how the business pays its workers.
- hotbshhh 3y ago
  [flagged]
- tomrod 3y ago
  Does the same logic apply regarding which products are purchased or boycotted for a societal improvement? As a consumer, I make specific choices. If I am marketed a price, that should be inclusive. The change starts with my choices, since managers clearly are against setting high enough wages.

fullspectrumdev 3y ago

To put it simply: the wage calculation is between the company and the employee, not the customer and the employee. The company socialising their wages out to their customers via tips is fucking absurd.

huytersd 3y ago
Meh I hate tipping culture as much as the next person but you really can’t run, for instance a dive bar, and pay the bartender $15 an hour. The foot traffic doesn’t bring in nearly enough most of the time. The end result would just be far fewer food and drink places which I wouldn’t like.
- ncallaway 3y ago
  If they can't bring in enough foot-traffic that they can pay a bartender $15 an hour, then how is tipping going to make up the difference? There's also not enough foot traffic to make that work
- changoplatanero 3y ago
  That's the whole point though. If the types of restaurants that you like can't make enough money to offer jobs that workers would accept then those restaurants shouldn't exist. They can be replaced with more profitable businesses that more people will enjoy.
  - s1artibartfast 3y ago
    That begs the question about what to do when the workers will accept lower wage, and there is not a more profitable business waiting to replace it. I dont know so many people make those assumptions. If there is a more profitable buisness, why isnt it there already?
    - contravariant 3y ago
      If they are offered more than enough money to be willing to stay and there's not a more profitable business waiting to replace it, then what exactly is the problem?

huytersd 3y ago

Don’t deign to even remotely justify this tipping nonsense. People should know upfront how much they need to pay with no guilt tripping funny business. It also irks me to no end how entitled someone bringing your food out to you can be. Everyone works, no one else begs and shames people for extra money.

tomrod 3y ago

And that's okay! The wages should be increased, and tipping should be put out to pasture.

JohnFen 3y ago

> The author is just pointing out that market forces means that folks aren't going to stay in those jobs. Not tipping is effectively using those same market forces to fix the disaster that tipping has become. If folks aren't going to stay in jobs because they don't make enough money from tips, then that will pressure employers to pay people better.

mbreese 3y ago
> then that will pressure employers to pay people better When taken to the logical end, this is true… but who ends up getting hurt the most during the transition? The workers you ultimately want to help. I can’t see that as a good alternative.
- genocidicbunny 3y ago
  Then that's the sad reality. We've used tips as a bandaid for low wages for too long, and now ripping the bandaid off is going to hurt. But the alternative is that the wound festers and potentially gets even worse because it's buried deep under a bandaid.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  The alternative is to maintain the status quo, and the status quo should not be maintained.

ncallaway 3y ago

> The author is just pointing out that market forces means that folks aren't going to stay in those jobs. Fun fact: that's the *business'* problem. As a customer, if you don't pay your staff, which means your business has shitty service, I'm just not going to come back. Pay your staff a living fucking wage.