9 ms·

District court rejects Tesla request, Postnord does not have to deliver plates

86 points by belltaco 3y ago

belltaco 3y ago
> According to the ruling, Postnord must be allowed to comment first and now has three days. After that, the district court will make a new decision on the lawsuit.
Hikikomori 3y ago
Like the other suit they 'won', neither have a ruling as only one side has been heard so far. Though temporary relief was ordered in the other case.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
bastardoperator 3y ago
That was quick.
- Jensson 3y ago
  It is mostly just USA that is slow. There is no reason to draw these things out.
Jun8 3y ago
So, my understanding is as follows (let me know if it's wrong): * Yesterday's ruling was about ordering to allow the plate manufacturer to hand out plates before they go to Postnord * This ruling is about the plates that are already with Postcard. So it seems it's two different things. Also, putting feelings about Tesla and Musk aside, how common is the concept of not doing an overall strike but not doing work for one customer only. I fully support the right of the Tesla mechanics to strike but what about the right of postal workers not striking but not delivering Tesla packages (there was also previous example of dock workers not unloading cars). Is this a right in other countries, too. Can it be exercised for other postal customers for other purposes than their workers striking, e.g. for support of certain political beliefs?
- chmod775 3y ago
  Sympathy strikes are illigal in some places, such as the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solidarity_action https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solidarity_action
  - jltsiren 3y ago
    The US version of a sympathy strike is a union contract that states that employees do not have to cross picket lines. For example, whenever there is a strike at my university, city buses don't go on campus and UPS doesn't make deliveries.
- mrmanner 3y ago
  > Can it be exercised for other postal customers for other purposes than their workers striking, e.g. for support of certain political beliefs? No - this is limited to labour market conflicts. The Swedish state (courts included) tries not to get involved in such conflicts. Both because of history (there were some unfortunate situations early last century) and because most voters are quite happy with how things work out.
- velcrovan 3y ago
  You may want to read this: When McDonald’s Came to Denmark — https://mattbruenig.com/2021/09/20/when-mcdonalds-came-to-denmark/ https://mattbruenig.com/2021/09/20/when-mcdonalds-came-to-de... > … When I bring this up, people sometimes respond by saying that these kinds of strikes are illegal in the US. This is a true and worthwhile bit of information, but insofar as it is meant to imply that the different legal environment is what accounts for the labor radicalism, this obviously has things backwards. The laws aren’t driving the labor radicalism, but rather the labor radicalism is driving the laws. > […] > If we [in the US] are ever going to get to Nordic levels of equality, it is really hard to imagine doing it without building a similarly powerful labor movement. You can certainly get some of the way there, such as by copying certain welfare programs, but without the unions, you’ll always be missing a key piece. And while legal and policy reforms can help build the labor movement some, the power of organized labor is not ultimately rooted in the state, but rather in the ability to halt production and wreak havoc even when the state is aligned against it.
s1artibartfast 3y ago
My understanding was that the request was not for delivery, but to let Tesla take possession of the plates. This seems reasonable to me. If postnord doesnt want to deliver to tesla, thats fine, but then they should reject packages addressed to tesla, not hold take them and hold them hostage.
- Jensson 3y ago
  There are two different cases. This case was for the post to delivered, it will go to court with no urgent changes. The case that Tesla should be able to pick up the plates at the factory had a preliminary judging that Tesla was allowed to pick it up during the trial.
  - s1artibartfast 3y ago
    Yes, there are two decisions and I am talking about postnord. I think postnord should have to return the plates in their possession to the factory, or allow Tesla to come get them wherever they are.
- tokai 3y ago
  How? When they get in postnord's possession they can't go anywhere without a postal worker handling them. Rejecting them and sending them back would be almost the same work process as delivering them to tesla.
  - alibarber 3y ago
    It's not like the employees want to avoid actually doing work - rejecting and sending them back would still have the same effect no?
  - s1artibartfast 3y ago
    Return to sender seems like a simple solution, or not accepting the package in the first place.
    - 3y ago
RcouF1uZ4gsC 3y ago
This behavior is defacto violating free trade. The US should ban the import of Volvos and other Swedish products until this is resolved.
- LastTrain 3y ago
  Maybe we should repeal the Chicken Tax first.
  - Racing0461 3y ago
    +1. toyota hilux would make a comeback.
- not2b 3y ago
  Can you point to a specific provision of a specific trade agreement that this violates? Or explain why the US government should try to break a strike in a different country to bail out Musk? Swedish labor unions are in all likelihood going to force Tesla to comply with normal Swedish labor practices, so Tesla can either go along with that or exit the market. It would be best for them to negotiate a settlement.
- buildsjets 3y ago
  The USA does not have a free trade agreement with Sweden, therefore the behavior is violating fuck all. Source: US Department of State. https://www.state.gov/trade-agreements/ https://www.state.gov/trade-agreements/
- AlgorithmicTime 3y ago
  [dead]
whats_a_quasar 3y ago
I'm broadly in favor of organized labor, but it seems very odd to me for a labor action to stop the state-run postal service from delivering to one customer in particular. The postal workers aren't Tesla employees. In the U.S., at least, government workers can strike against their government employer, but de-facto denying government services to a specific company would be way out of bounds.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > it seems very odd to me for a labor action to stop the state-run postal service from delivering to one customer in particular We're seeing a country, and increasingly the Nordic region, express outrage against Musk. It's manifesting in a Scandinavian way. But were the same conditions ripe in America, we'd see registration delays and special fees, safety investigations and public hearings.
  - whats_a_quasar 3y ago
    > were the same conditions ripe in America, we'd see registration delays and special fees, safety investigations and public hearings. I don't think we would. America is a big country, and certainly governments can be obstructionist, particularly state and local governments. But that tends to be through permitting and courts, which makes it more predictable and easier to appeal. USPS doing something like this is inconceivable - reliable delivery of government services is very high priority.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > that tends to be through permitting and courts, which makes it more predictable and easier to appeal Talk to a developer some time. Approvals are opaque and personal and rarely subject to judicial review. I'd prefer that to change. But to argue it's unprecedented or an affront to the rule of law would be ridiculous. > USPS doing something like this is inconceivable PostNord is technically a private company. (It's state owned.) This is more like the MPAA refusing to rate a movie, or giving a film a rating the producer doesn't like.
gabeaweg 3y ago
I know I will be crucified for this, but doesn't it seem like a dangerous precedent that a public utility can choose to stop working for certain companies/citizens? I understand striking in a binary way, working or not working, but being a public utility and deciding who you serve depending on whatever criteria, be it politics or whatever, seems like it could get ugly depending on the circumstances. Imagine if physicians or bus drivers did this.
- wolframhempel 3y ago
  I'm surprised that this is something that needs to be said with caution. Does anybody want to live in a world where individual government institutions selectively shun private citizens or companies? A world where - rather than in a court of law - you're punished by the electricity company deciding to cut your power?
  - therouwboat 3y ago
    Its not really government thats wants to block deliveries, more like government owned company is supporting workers and unions.
    - whats_a_quasar 3y ago
      The government has the obligation to deliver services to residents and businesses. If some government workers refuse to do the work, the government's obligation is unchanged, and they need to find another way to fulfill it
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > government has the obligation to deliver services to residents and businesses Postnord is a private company [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PostNord https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PostNord
        deleted 3y ago
sbt 3y ago
Well it’s not like Postnord manages to deliver something even if they try.
morpheuskafka 3y ago
It is absolutely incompatible with the rule of law that workers can selectively fail to perform government services for someone they don't like, and not be disciplined. This is not a labor rights issue, it is an issue of the government's sovereignty and ability to fulfill its duties. I can't stand Tesla/Musk but I would not be happy if this happened in my country. If state workers could simply refuse to deliver your mail, renew your drivers license, or let you into the airport because of a political reasons, it would no better than a dictatorship where the government itself did those things to suppress political enemies. You would have no ability to carry on your normal life or business. Could the poll workers refuse to accepts ballots for a candidate they have a "labor action" against?
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > incompatible with the rule of law This isn't a rule of law issue. If the courts issued a final ruling and the postal workers persisted, it would be.
  - aaomidi 3y ago
    Even then I’d say that courts being able to discipline workers for unionizing and blocking work against a huge company would be going against the intent of workers rights. This isn’t workers saying we’re not going to deliver mail to, let’s say, Muslims. It’s saying that we’re not going to deliver mail for a company actively refusing to work within our labor market with our customs. This is entirely their right. A court that would rule otherwise is not a legitimate court in the eyes of the workers and people.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > This is entirely their right I agree. Every system of law has its own rules and customs. Sympathetic strikes are a precedented Swedish custom. Freedom of association is the langauge we'd use. > A court that would rule otherwise is not a legitimate court in the eyes of the workers and people This is counterproductive hyperbole.
pavlov 3y ago
Another lame stunt by Musk. He should just play by the same rules as every other employer in Sweden for the past 80 years, but he can't help seeking the attention.
- paulddraper 3y ago
  This is Tesla's M.O. They don't do things conventionally in many localities, e.g. dealership stuff.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
ajross 3y ago
This has gotten out of hand, and frankly everyone is a bad guy. Tesla is being innapropriately inflexible here; union labor is the rule in Europe and they're just going to have to deal with that. On the other side, we have a bunch of other unions and a government-mandated monopoly (!!) being deployed against them over a single center with 130 jobs. This level of economic disruption is way out of range of what is reasonable for a union action. It's supposed to be for the benefit of the workers in question, and to be honest I don't think anyone's even covering them? The whole thing is a shitshow, and it's frankly embarrassing for Sweden from my perspective. I mean, if you were a C-suite executive looking to open a new office, and had to pick between Stockholm and Oslo or Helsinki, seems like an easy choice, no?
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > It's supposed to be for the benefit of the workers in question, and to be honest I don't think anyone's even covering them? The Nordics are a high-value EV market. It could be worth demonstrating resolve so the next group that hires these workers plays by the rules the local economy has evolved. The Swedish unions, for their part, see this fight as exisetnial to their economic model [1]. With which I agree. If they bend for Tesla, they'll have to for Amazon. [1] https://www.ft.com/content/99caf360-7c21-4251-9167-f08a8fa6c9f8 https://www.ft.com/content/99caf360-7c21-4251-9167-f08a8fa6c...
  - ajross 3y ago
    > If they bend for Tesla, they'll have to for Amazon. I'm just going to go out on a limb and declare without evidence but with great certainty that Amazon employs VASTLY more than 130 workers in Sweden. This doesn't pass the smell test, sorry.
- tokai 3y ago
  Its not embarrassing for Sweden at all. Its how their labor market is organized. It's working exactly like it should.
- wtfwhateven 3y ago
  >way out of range of what is reasonable for a union action. It's not and it shouldn't be. If Tesla wasn't being "inflexible" then this wouldn't be happening. Their actions are unjustifiable and have continued for years. The only bad actor here is Tesla. Tesla just has to stop their abhorrent behaviour.
eddtries 3y ago
Someone mentioned it'd be interesting to do a study of the Dunning-Kruger effect on the Bay Area/HN yesterday and after seeing the authority people talk about Swedish unions with almost every point being incorrect, I agree. Why do people feel the need to comment on things that they just don't know? I like Lesswrong and similar forums where people preface comments with how sure they are of what they're saying - HN could do with similar.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
1vuio0pswjnm7 3y ago
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/28/business/tesla-license-plates-sweden-unions.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/28/business/tesla-license-pl...

86 points by belltaco 3y ago

> According to the ruling, Postnord must be allowed to comment first and now has three days. After that, the district court will make a new decision on the lawsuit.

Hikikomori 3y ago

Like the other suit they 'won', neither have a ruling as only one side has been heard so far. Though temporary relief was ordered in the other case.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

bastardoperator 3y ago

That was quick.

Jensson 3y ago
It is mostly just USA that is slow. There is no reason to draw these things out.

Jun8 3y ago

So, my understanding is as follows (let me know if it's wrong): * Yesterday's ruling was about ordering to allow the plate manufacturer to hand out plates before they go to Postnord * This ruling is about the plates that are already with Postcard. So it seems it's two different things. Also, putting feelings about Tesla and Musk aside, how common is the concept of not doing an overall strike but not doing work for one customer only. I fully support the right of the Tesla mechanics to strike but what about the right of postal workers not striking but not delivering Tesla packages (there was also previous example of dock workers not unloading cars). Is this a right in other countries, too. Can it be exercised for other postal customers for other purposes than their workers striking, e.g. for support of certain political beliefs?

chmod775 3y ago
Sympathy strikes are illigal in some places, such as the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solidarity_action https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solidarity_action
- jltsiren 3y ago
  The US version of a sympathy strike is a union contract that states that employees do not have to cross picket lines. For example, whenever there is a strike at my university, city buses don't go on campus and UPS doesn't make deliveries.
mrmanner 3y ago
> Can it be exercised for other postal customers for other purposes than their workers striking, e.g. for support of certain political beliefs? No - this is limited to labour market conflicts. The Swedish state (courts included) tries not to get involved in such conflicts. Both because of history (there were some unfortunate situations early last century) and because most voters are quite happy with how things work out.
velcrovan 3y ago
You may want to read this: When McDonald’s Came to Denmark — https://mattbruenig.com/2021/09/20/when-mcdonalds-came-to-denmark/ https://mattbruenig.com/2021/09/20/when-mcdonalds-came-to-de... > … When I bring this up, people sometimes respond by saying that these kinds of strikes are illegal in the US. This is a true and worthwhile bit of information, but insofar as it is meant to imply that the different legal environment is what accounts for the labor radicalism, this obviously has things backwards. The laws aren’t driving the labor radicalism, but rather the labor radicalism is driving the laws. > […] > If we [in the US] are ever going to get to Nordic levels of equality, it is really hard to imagine doing it without building a similarly powerful labor movement. You can certainly get some of the way there, such as by copying certain welfare programs, but without the unions, you’ll always be missing a key piece. And while legal and policy reforms can help build the labor movement some, the power of organized labor is not ultimately rooted in the state, but rather in the ability to halt production and wreak havoc even when the state is aligned against it.

s1artibartfast 3y ago

My understanding was that the request was not for delivery, but to let Tesla take possession of the plates. This seems reasonable to me. If postnord doesnt want to deliver to tesla, thats fine, but then they should reject packages addressed to tesla, not hold take them and hold them hostage.

Jensson 3y ago
There are two different cases. This case was for the post to delivered, it will go to court with no urgent changes. The case that Tesla should be able to pick up the plates at the factory had a preliminary judging that Tesla was allowed to pick it up during the trial.
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  Yes, there are two decisions and I am talking about postnord. I think postnord should have to return the plates in their possession to the factory, or allow Tesla to come get them wherever they are.
tokai 3y ago
How? When they get in postnord's possession they can't go anywhere without a postal worker handling them. Rejecting them and sending them back would be almost the same work process as delivering them to tesla.
- alibarber 3y ago
  It's not like the employees want to avoid actually doing work - rejecting and sending them back would still have the same effect no?
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  Return to sender seems like a simple solution, or not accepting the package in the first place.
  - 3y ago

RcouF1uZ4gsC 3y ago

This behavior is defacto violating free trade. The US should ban the import of Volvos and other Swedish products until this is resolved.

LastTrain 3y ago
Maybe we should repeal the Chicken Tax first.
- Racing0461 3y ago
  +1. toyota hilux would make a comeback.
not2b 3y ago
Can you point to a specific provision of a specific trade agreement that this violates? Or explain why the US government should try to break a strike in a different country to bail out Musk? Swedish labor unions are in all likelihood going to force Tesla to comply with normal Swedish labor practices, so Tesla can either go along with that or exit the market. It would be best for them to negotiate a settlement.
buildsjets 3y ago
The USA does not have a free trade agreement with Sweden, therefore the behavior is violating fuck all. Source: US Department of State. https://www.state.gov/trade-agreements/ https://www.state.gov/trade-agreements/
AlgorithmicTime 3y ago
[dead]

whats_a_quasar 3y ago

I'm broadly in favor of organized labor, but it seems very odd to me for a labor action to stop the state-run postal service from delivering to one customer in particular. The postal workers aren't Tesla employees. In the U.S., at least, government workers can strike against their government employer, but de-facto denying government services to a specific company would be way out of bounds.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> it seems very odd to me for a labor action to stop the state-run postal service from delivering to one customer in particular We're seeing a country, and increasingly the Nordic region, express outrage against Musk. It's manifesting in a Scandinavian way. But were the same conditions ripe in America, we'd see registration delays and special fees, safety investigations and public hearings.
- whats_a_quasar 3y ago
  > were the same conditions ripe in America, we'd see registration delays and special fees, safety investigations and public hearings. I don't think we would. America is a big country, and certainly governments can be obstructionist, particularly state and local governments. But that tends to be through permitting and courts, which makes it more predictable and easier to appeal. USPS doing something like this is inconceivable - reliable delivery of government services is very high priority.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > that tends to be through permitting and courts, which makes it more predictable and easier to appeal Talk to a developer some time. Approvals are opaque and personal and rarely subject to judicial review. I'd prefer that to change. But to argue it's unprecedented or an affront to the rule of law would be ridiculous. > USPS doing something like this is inconceivable PostNord is technically a private company. (It's state owned.) This is more like the MPAA refusing to rate a movie, or giving a film a rating the producer doesn't like.

gabeaweg 3y ago

I know I will be crucified for this, but doesn't it seem like a dangerous precedent that a public utility can choose to stop working for certain companies/citizens? I understand striking in a binary way, working or not working, but being a public utility and deciding who you serve depending on whatever criteria, be it politics or whatever, seems like it could get ugly depending on the circumstances. Imagine if physicians or bus drivers did this.

wolframhempel 3y ago
I'm surprised that this is something that needs to be said with caution. Does anybody want to live in a world where individual government institutions selectively shun private citizens or companies? A world where - rather than in a court of law - you're punished by the electricity company deciding to cut your power?
- therouwboat 3y ago
  Its not really government thats wants to block deliveries, more like government owned company is supporting workers and unions.
  - whats_a_quasar 3y ago
    The government has the obligation to deliver services to residents and businesses. If some government workers refuse to do the work, the government's obligation is unchanged, and they need to find another way to fulfill it
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > government has the obligation to deliver services to residents and businesses Postnord is a private company [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PostNord https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PostNord
      - deleted 3y ago

sbt 3y ago

Well it’s not like Postnord manages to deliver something even if they try.

morpheuskafka 3y ago

It is absolutely incompatible with the rule of law that workers can selectively fail to perform government services for someone they don't like, and not be disciplined. This is not a labor rights issue, it is an issue of the government's sovereignty and ability to fulfill its duties. I can't stand Tesla/Musk but I would not be happy if this happened in my country. If state workers could simply refuse to deliver your mail, renew your drivers license, or let you into the airport because of a political reasons, it would no better than a dictatorship where the government itself did those things to suppress political enemies. You would have no ability to carry on your normal life or business. Could the poll workers refuse to accepts ballots for a candidate they have a "labor action" against?

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> incompatible with the rule of law This isn't a rule of law issue. If the courts issued a final ruling and the postal workers persisted, it would be.
- aaomidi 3y ago
  Even then I’d say that courts being able to discipline workers for unionizing and blocking work against a huge company would be going against the intent of workers rights. This isn’t workers saying we’re not going to deliver mail to, let’s say, Muslims. It’s saying that we’re not going to deliver mail for a company actively refusing to work within our labor market with our customs. This is entirely their right. A court that would rule otherwise is not a legitimate court in the eyes of the workers and people.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > This is entirely their right I agree. Every system of law has its own rules and customs. Sympathetic strikes are a precedented Swedish custom. Freedom of association is the langauge we'd use. > A court that would rule otherwise is not a legitimate court in the eyes of the workers and people This is counterproductive hyperbole.

pavlov 3y ago

Another lame stunt by Musk. He should just play by the same rules as every other employer in Sweden for the past 80 years, but he can't help seeking the attention.

paulddraper 3y ago
This is Tesla's M.O. They don't do things conventionally in many localities, e.g. dealership stuff.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

ajross 3y ago

This has gotten out of hand, and frankly everyone is a bad guy. Tesla is being innapropriately inflexible here; union labor is the rule in Europe and they're just going to have to deal with that. On the other side, we have a bunch of other unions and a government-mandated monopoly (!!) being deployed against them over a single center with 130 jobs. This level of economic disruption is way out of range of what is reasonable for a union action. It's supposed to be for the benefit of the workers in question, and to be honest I don't think anyone's even covering them? The whole thing is a shitshow, and it's frankly embarrassing for Sweden from my perspective. I mean, if you were a C-suite executive looking to open a new office, and had to pick between Stockholm and Oslo or Helsinki, seems like an easy choice, no?

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> It's supposed to be for the benefit of the workers in question, and to be honest I don't think anyone's even covering them? The Nordics are a high-value EV market. It could be worth demonstrating resolve so the next group that hires these workers plays by the rules the local economy has evolved. The Swedish unions, for their part, see this fight as exisetnial to their economic model [1]. With which I agree. If they bend for Tesla, they'll have to for Amazon. [1] https://www.ft.com/content/99caf360-7c21-4251-9167-f08a8fa6c9f8 https://www.ft.com/content/99caf360-7c21-4251-9167-f08a8fa6c...
- ajross 3y ago
  > If they bend for Tesla, they'll have to for Amazon. I'm just going to go out on a limb and declare without evidence but with great certainty that Amazon employs VASTLY more than 130 workers in Sweden. This doesn't pass the smell test, sorry.
tokai 3y ago
Its not embarrassing for Sweden at all. Its how their labor market is organized. It's working exactly like it should.
wtfwhateven 3y ago
>way out of range of what is reasonable for a union action. It's not and it shouldn't be. If Tesla wasn't being "inflexible" then this wouldn't be happening. Their actions are unjustifiable and have continued for years. The only bad actor here is Tesla. Tesla just has to stop their abhorrent behaviour.

eddtries 3y ago

Someone mentioned it'd be interesting to do a study of the Dunning-Kruger effect on the Bay Area/HN yesterday and after seeing the authority people talk about Swedish unions with almost every point being incorrect, I agree. Why do people feel the need to comment on things that they just don't know? I like Lesswrong and similar forums where people preface comments with how sure they are of what they're saying - HN could do with similar.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

1vuio0pswjnm7 3y ago

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/28/business/tesla-license-plates-sweden-unions.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/28/business/tesla-license-pl...