8 ms·

One thing I have found extremely interesting was how Valve hit the jackpot with many early hires. It was literally people that often didn't even have a CS or l

One thing I have found extremely interesting was how Valve hit the jackpot with many early hires. It was literally people that often didn't even have a CS or let alone gaming background and yet so many of them proved to be relentlessly resourceful, creative and hard working. The guy who wrote most of the HL code wasn't even a developer and at the time was studying to become a lawyer or accountant iirc. I can't but think that timing, founders but also straight up luck played an absolutely crucial factor.

acomjean 3y ago
They knew Michael Abrash from working at Microsoft who went to id, told them to "you should use our engine". They went to id and walked out with the quake engine, and some advice from Romero. Sometimes it really helps who you know, and there is always some element of luck in making it. Having a great team certainly made that game what it was. It was interesting how they balance realism and fun. Its always interesting how things get made.
- willis936 3y ago
  That coupled with the fact that the talent pool and tooling for game development were limited. Having id at your back was a superpower (which is arguably still true today when you compare their tech to other engines). DYKG recently did a video about Ken Sugimori (the Pokemon guy). He is an overly harsh critic of his own skills, but I think there is a kernel of truth in this insight: "It's kind of embarrassing to admit actually - but [video games were] a brand new industry back then, and standards were lower than in other fields..." https://youtu.be/SVFnYLTsxdc&t=18m30s https://youtu.be/SVFnYLTsxdc&t=18m30s
  - hypercube33 3y ago
    There is a video somewhere where gaben is really self destructive about how half life 2 turned out and I think it's why we don't see half life 3 or any other new games - I think he's overly critical about his work. Watching this 25th documentary really felt like the team had a nostalgia trip making it and fond memories of the game. I wonder if the spark is gone with that teams weird dynamic.
    - Hikikomori 3y ago
      He said he didn't think much about his past work and he is hardwired to keep his eyes on the future.
    - dkdbejwi383 3y ago
      That’s quite sad in a way; Half Life 2 is still an incredibly influential and beloved game 20 years later. Or is that maybe why? The weight of expectation is too great to live up to
      - ErneX 3y ago
        They did release a new HL game after those: HL:Alyx (VR only though) it was critically acclaimed.
      - Nekhrimah 3y ago
        The follow up Episodes One and Two are fantastic. And the leaked storyline for Episode Three looking really strong as well. I hold out hope that the Crowbar Collective (the group that remade Half-Life with the Source engine and called it Black Mesa) have been secretly working on implementing the Episode Three storyline in Source. Though, now that Source2 is out who knows? This is all my speculation anyway.
    - nickpeterson 3y ago
      I think part of it is that games (like films, novels, albums, etc) are intense, grueling creative efforts. I think many young dev teams go in pretty naive and strike gold, and assume it was hard because it was new. Then they make another and realize, nope it’s just hard every time. I think it would be very difficult to sign on to each new project after years of 70 hour weeks. What’s the point of success if you can’t enjoy your time after?
    - 7thaccount 3y ago
      Turned out? Like as in bad? I remember playing it when it came out and couldn't believe graphics had gotten that advanced. The gravity gun? That blew my mind. Both the games were amazing experiences for me even though I didn't get to play them in full until years later. I'd like another game to help me understand the lore better.
pipes 3y ago
Similar with goldeneye team, I think only one team member had done game Dev before (or something like that).
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- smcl 3y ago
  Goldeneye was developed by Rare, who had been in existence for 10 years by the time Goldeneye was released. I'd be really surprised if they had landed the rights to a big IP and then turned a bunch of newbies loose on it.
  - alargemoose 3y ago
    The 90s were a very different time my friend, prepare to be really surprised! https://youtu.be/3AEvEIYzMbU?si=S5NDh1874vsE72Kl?t=8m28s https://youtu.be/3AEvEIYzMbU?si=S5NDh1874vsE72Kl?t=8m28s This is video is a wider retrospective about the game that I think is worth watching, but I linked to a clip in it from a GDC talk given by the games director. Where he states himself that only he and one other goldeneye 007 team member “had ever made a game before”
    - pipes 3y ago
      Thanks for that, exactly what I was meaning!
    - smcl 3y ago
      WOW ok I stand 100% corrected
  - pipes 3y ago
    They been around a lot longer than that as "ultimate play the game" :)
  - Hikikomori 3y ago
    He's correct. Martin Hollis was game director and had worked on one game before, cant remember if he was the only one that had worked on a game before or if they had one more, the rest of the team had never worked on a game. He thought it was one of their strengths as they came up with stuff that seasoned developers would never have tried. Here's his GDC postmortem presentation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1Fx18cppZk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1Fx18cppZk
AndriyKunitsyn 3y ago
Because technically, they didn't. As they say in the documentary, the version of the game that they made after the first year or so was bad, and they acknowledged it, and they changed their processes and introduced the "cabal" - so they basically paid that first year to gather experience. And what's important, their publisher Sierra was okay with it. I don't see that happening today, to be honest, in "AAA" titles at least. Budgets have gone through the roof, and the publisher won't give you a plan B, they will force the developer to duct-tape what they have and ship it no matter what. And the game can always be patched later, right?
- hello281237 3y ago
  Sierra is an interesting company. In the video game industry has very few well known female game designers, and that was even more true back then. Yet the adventure game genre had several - Roberta Williams, Lori Cole, Jane Jensen, and Christy Marx (not as well known, but her games are well regarded), all of whom worked for Sierra. One has to wonder if Roberta Williams being co-owner of the company (and the designer of the first graphical adventure game) is one of the reasons for this. Another interesting story is when Ken Williams (Roberta Williams husband, the other co-owner of the company) hired middle-aged retired police officer Jim Walls to design the Police Quest adventure games (he designed the first three). Ken apparently was talking to his hairdresser about his idea for a police adventure game, when she mentioned that Walls, her husband, might be an interesting person to talk to.
  - bena 3y ago
    If you're the only one willing to tap into a talent pool, you get to pump that resource as much as you want. So if Sierra is the only company really willing to hire female game designers, they really get to take all the best.
    - bzzzt 3y ago
      I don't think others were not willing to hire female designers; some Infocom games from that time also had female authors. I think it's more to do with the time they started. Somewhere during the 80s the 'white male nerd' stereotype became a self-reinforcing thing which scared a lot of women away from everything computer-related. Also, I don't consider Sierra games 'the best designed'. Some of their games have lots of 'personality' and they were first with many innovations, but it's clear everyone was still figuring out how to design games at the time.
nickpeterson 3y ago
I’m sure all these people were talented, but it reinforces my own belief that the most important things are passion and focus. I feel like the tech world fixates on 10x programmers like Carmack, but motivated people can pull off amazing things.
- z3phyr 3y ago
  Carmack the pizza guy. He did not have any computer science education at a formal institute.
  - bluedino 3y ago
    Well, he did go to University of Missouri for a year (not sure if he took compsci or?)
- Loughla 3y ago
  I think for most hiring, regardless of industry, the secret is searching for passion, focus, (I would add) ability/willingness to learn new skills, and a positive attitude toward other humans. Specific job skills can be taught or learned. If you have the right attitude, positive outlook, and are inherently someone who learns things, you can be very successful in most jobs. Too often, hiring filters for specific job skills/credentials. Because these are supposed to be a proxy for the softer skills. It's not as effective, but much easier to deploy at scale, I think.
  - thinkingtoilet 3y ago
    I have built some truly awesome teams and besides a base level of knowledge, the only thing I care about is attitude. Another huge factor is passions, I always ask what they do outside of work. If you are passionate about something you know how to focus and care about the details. This strategy has been very successful for me.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
underlipton 3y ago
That struck me, too. They really took a chance on so much staff, without any real proof that they'd be able to deliver. My impression was that this was a lot more common then than now. These days, you have to be capable of work a level or two above what's needed for shipping, presumably because management and timelines are so warped that you'll be rushed and overworked and still have to deliver. People starting out or shifting careers don't have anything like this kind of backing; you go it alone and hope that you're developing the skills necessary to get hired.
dysoco 3y ago
They hit the jackpot or, a reasonably motivated developer, under a cool project to keep them engaged and a nurturing environment with peers in the same situation is on high chance of flourishing?
platzhirsch 3y ago
Diamonds in the rough with a hunger for more. Kudos to the founders recognizing this.
nimajneb 3y ago
Some of them had experience in map making and modding though, correct? I don't know if Dario Casali had a CS degree at the time or if he does now, but he was making Doom maps and contributed to Final Doom prior to being hired at Valve. I think he had economics degree at the time. He recently did a play through of HL with him giving commentary and realy fascinated, definitely watch that. He talks about how a bunch of them didn't really know how to make a game and somehow they did it. That doesn't take away from a bunch of inexperienced people making an awesome game though. That was hard to do I'm sure. I couldn't even dream of accomplishing that.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

acomjean 3y ago

They knew Michael Abrash from working at Microsoft who went to id, told them to "you should use our engine". They went to id and walked out with the quake engine, and some advice from Romero. Sometimes it really helps who you know, and there is always some element of luck in making it. Having a great team certainly made that game what it was. It was interesting how they balance realism and fun. Its always interesting how things get made.

willis936 3y ago
That coupled with the fact that the talent pool and tooling for game development were limited. Having id at your back was a superpower (which is arguably still true today when you compare their tech to other engines). DYKG recently did a video about Ken Sugimori (the Pokemon guy). He is an overly harsh critic of his own skills, but I think there is a kernel of truth in this insight: "It's kind of embarrassing to admit actually - but [video games were] a brand new industry back then, and standards were lower than in other fields..." https://youtu.be/SVFnYLTsxdc&t=18m30s https://youtu.be/SVFnYLTsxdc&t=18m30s
- hypercube33 3y ago
  There is a video somewhere where gaben is really self destructive about how half life 2 turned out and I think it's why we don't see half life 3 or any other new games - I think he's overly critical about his work. Watching this 25th documentary really felt like the team had a nostalgia trip making it and fond memories of the game. I wonder if the spark is gone with that teams weird dynamic.
  - Hikikomori 3y ago
    He said he didn't think much about his past work and he is hardwired to keep his eyes on the future.
  - dkdbejwi383 3y ago
    That’s quite sad in a way; Half Life 2 is still an incredibly influential and beloved game 20 years later. Or is that maybe why? The weight of expectation is too great to live up to
    - ErneX 3y ago
      They did release a new HL game after those: HL:Alyx (VR only though) it was critically acclaimed.
    - Nekhrimah 3y ago
      The follow up Episodes One and Two are fantastic. And the leaked storyline for Episode Three looking really strong as well. I hold out hope that the Crowbar Collective (the group that remade Half-Life with the Source engine and called it Black Mesa) have been secretly working on implementing the Episode Three storyline in Source. Though, now that Source2 is out who knows? This is all my speculation anyway.
  - nickpeterson 3y ago
    I think part of it is that games (like films, novels, albums, etc) are intense, grueling creative efforts. I think many young dev teams go in pretty naive and strike gold, and assume it was hard because it was new. Then they make another and realize, nope it’s just hard every time. I think it would be very difficult to sign on to each new project after years of 70 hour weeks. What’s the point of success if you can’t enjoy your time after?
  - 7thaccount 3y ago
    Turned out? Like as in bad? I remember playing it when it came out and couldn't believe graphics had gotten that advanced. The gravity gun? That blew my mind. Both the games were amazing experiences for me even though I didn't get to play them in full until years later. I'd like another game to help me understand the lore better.

pipes 3y ago

Similar with goldeneye team, I think only one team member had done game Dev before (or something like that).

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
smcl 3y ago
Goldeneye was developed by Rare, who had been in existence for 10 years by the time Goldeneye was released. I'd be really surprised if they had landed the rights to a big IP and then turned a bunch of newbies loose on it.
- alargemoose 3y ago
  The 90s were a very different time my friend, prepare to be really surprised! https://youtu.be/3AEvEIYzMbU?si=S5NDh1874vsE72Kl?t=8m28s https://youtu.be/3AEvEIYzMbU?si=S5NDh1874vsE72Kl?t=8m28s This is video is a wider retrospective about the game that I think is worth watching, but I linked to a clip in it from a GDC talk given by the games director. Where he states himself that only he and one other goldeneye 007 team member “had ever made a game before”
  - pipes 3y ago
    Thanks for that, exactly what I was meaning!
  - smcl 3y ago
    WOW ok I stand 100% corrected
- pipes 3y ago
  They been around a lot longer than that as "ultimate play the game" :)
- Hikikomori 3y ago
  He's correct. Martin Hollis was game director and had worked on one game before, cant remember if he was the only one that had worked on a game before or if they had one more, the rest of the team had never worked on a game. He thought it was one of their strengths as they came up with stuff that seasoned developers would never have tried. Here's his GDC postmortem presentation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1Fx18cppZk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1Fx18cppZk

AndriyKunitsyn 3y ago

Because technically, they didn't. As they say in the documentary, the version of the game that they made after the first year or so was bad, and they acknowledged it, and they changed their processes and introduced the "cabal" - so they basically paid that first year to gather experience. And what's important, their publisher Sierra was okay with it. I don't see that happening today, to be honest, in "AAA" titles at least. Budgets have gone through the roof, and the publisher won't give you a plan B, they will force the developer to duct-tape what they have and ship it no matter what. And the game can always be patched later, right?

hello281237 3y ago
Sierra is an interesting company. In the video game industry has very few well known female game designers, and that was even more true back then. Yet the adventure game genre had several - Roberta Williams, Lori Cole, Jane Jensen, and Christy Marx (not as well known, but her games are well regarded), all of whom worked for Sierra. One has to wonder if Roberta Williams being co-owner of the company (and the designer of the first graphical adventure game) is one of the reasons for this. Another interesting story is when Ken Williams (Roberta Williams husband, the other co-owner of the company) hired middle-aged retired police officer Jim Walls to design the Police Quest adventure games (he designed the first three). Ken apparently was talking to his hairdresser about his idea for a police adventure game, when she mentioned that Walls, her husband, might be an interesting person to talk to.
- bena 3y ago
  If you're the only one willing to tap into a talent pool, you get to pump that resource as much as you want. So if Sierra is the only company really willing to hire female game designers, they really get to take all the best.
  - bzzzt 3y ago
    I don't think others were not willing to hire female designers; some Infocom games from that time also had female authors. I think it's more to do with the time they started. Somewhere during the 80s the 'white male nerd' stereotype became a self-reinforcing thing which scared a lot of women away from everything computer-related. Also, I don't consider Sierra games 'the best designed'. Some of their games have lots of 'personality' and they were first with many innovations, but it's clear everyone was still figuring out how to design games at the time.

nickpeterson 3y ago

I’m sure all these people were talented, but it reinforces my own belief that the most important things are passion and focus. I feel like the tech world fixates on 10x programmers like Carmack, but motivated people can pull off amazing things.

z3phyr 3y ago
Carmack the pizza guy. He did not have any computer science education at a formal institute.
- bluedino 3y ago
  Well, he did go to University of Missouri for a year (not sure if he took compsci or?)
Loughla 3y ago
I think for most hiring, regardless of industry, the secret is searching for passion, focus, (I would add) ability/willingness to learn new skills, and a positive attitude toward other humans. Specific job skills can be taught or learned. If you have the right attitude, positive outlook, and are inherently someone who learns things, you can be very successful in most jobs. Too often, hiring filters for specific job skills/credentials. Because these are supposed to be a proxy for the softer skills. It's not as effective, but much easier to deploy at scale, I think.
- thinkingtoilet 3y ago
  I have built some truly awesome teams and besides a base level of knowledge, the only thing I care about is attitude. Another huge factor is passions, I always ask what they do outside of work. If you are passionate about something you know how to focus and care about the details. This strategy has been very successful for me.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

underlipton 3y ago

That struck me, too. They really took a chance on so much staff, without any real proof that they'd be able to deliver. My impression was that this was a lot more common then than now. These days, you have to be capable of work a level or two above what's needed for shipping, presumably because management and timelines are so warped that you'll be rushed and overworked and still have to deliver. People starting out or shifting careers don't have anything like this kind of backing; you go it alone and hope that you're developing the skills necessary to get hired.

dysoco 3y ago

They hit the jackpot or, a reasonably motivated developer, under a cool project to keep them engaged and a nurturing environment with peers in the same situation is on high chance of flourishing?

platzhirsch 3y ago

Diamonds in the rough with a hunger for more. Kudos to the founders recognizing this.

nimajneb 3y ago

Some of them had experience in map making and modding though, correct? I don't know if Dario Casali had a CS degree at the time or if he does now, but he was making Doom maps and contributed to Final Doom prior to being hired at Valve. I think he had economics degree at the time. He recently did a play through of HL with him giving commentary and realy fascinated, definitely watch that. He talks about how a bunch of them didn't really know how to make a game and somehow they did it. That doesn't take away from a bunch of inexperienced people making an awesome game though. That was hard to do I'm sure. I couldn't even dream of accomplishing that.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]