5 ms·

Are terms and conditions that specifically stipulate what local laws and courts preside over any legal actions useless? Cloudflare's terms of use call out that

Are terms and conditions that specifically stipulate what local laws and courts preside over any legal actions useless? Cloudflare's terms of use call out that it is governed by the laws of California and any litigation wipp be tried there [1]. How did Germany get to enforce their laws and courts on Cloudflare? [1] https://www.cloudflare.com/website-terms/ https://www.cloudflare.com/website-terms/

that_guy_iain 3y ago
It doesn't matter waht the terms and conditions are. This is German courts deciding what Cloudflare's legal liabilities are within Germany if they want to operate within Germany. Cloudflare either complies or is blocked within Germany. That happens Cloudflare loses lots of customers.
- mdekkers 3y ago
  > That happens Cloudflare loses lots of customers. A couple of PoPs perhaps, but a lot of customers?
  - that_guy_iain 3y ago
    Easily thousands within a day of being blocked. Lots of companies use Cloudlfare and do business in Germany and can't afford to be blocked as it would literally cost them money to be blocked.
    - mdekkers 3y ago
      I use lots of services that are not based or have a presence in my current EU country though. Do Cloudflare even _have_ a German office and entity?
      - that_guy_iain 3y ago
        Doesn't matter for German courts to tell ISPs to block their IPs. German courts get to decide what is and is not allowed within their country and if they decide your service is illegal and block it, there isn't much you can do but try and go to the EU courts to have it overturned but that is very unlikely. But while you go through the process with the EU courts you're still blocked.
        mdekkers 3y ago
        I do believe that Germany blocking CF endpoints would knock Germany even further back into the stone age, and would hurt Germany a lot more than it would hurt CF.
        that_guy_iain 3y ago
        A large amount of companies would drop CF like a brick. Nearly every company operating in Germany that uses CF would drop it, very few would be willing to say goodbye to money to keep CF. Any CTO affected who wouldn't drop them should be fired. A vendor should not be removing your ability to operate in markets. It would seriously hit CF's stock price as it would be a massive sign that there is a massive risk of other countries blocking it. And some competitor would pick up all the customers fleeing. CF is not the only game in town, switching to a competitor or just dropping it completely is often rather easy. Any CEO running CF or similar company willing to call the bluff of a country on something like this should be booted by the board. It would have a massive effect on CF long term while it would have a reasonably short term effect to Germany and German consumers. For example, every sale call would have people asking if their primary markets are at the risk of being blocked. That's a major objection to add. Make no mistake, being blocked in the 4th largest economy in the world is extremely bad for any company.
      - tzs 3y ago
        They currently have job listings for 12 roles in Munich, Germany which suggests that have an office there. They also have job listings for 6 remote roles in Germany, so even if they had no offices there that suggests they have employees there which would probably open them up to some German law.
    - immibis 3y ago
      They should sue the government for blocking them.
      - that_guy_iain 3y ago
        Sue the government for blocking a company that doesn't obey its laws? Sure you could take them to the EU court, but during that time you're still going to be blocked. And you would almost certainly lose there too since governments are allowed to set their own laws as long as they comply with EU laws.
- Jamie9912 3y ago
  What counts as "operating within Germany"? Does having a publically routable internet address count as operating within Germany?
  - that_guy_iain 3y ago
    In the terms of Cloudflare and other internet companies providing digital services pretty much. They have lots of German customers too.
- philwelch 3y ago
  Germany has a Chinese-style firewall where they can just block parts of the Internet?
  - that_guy_iain 3y ago
    Countries just tell ISPs they need to block ips. It's easy to bypass, see the pirate bay blocks.
  - immibis 3y ago
    Even America has a Chinese-style firewall - it's called Cloudflare.
realityking 3y ago
ToS are a contracted. You can specify a legal venue as part of a contract (though that’s not always enforceable, especially in B2C relationships). However in this case, Universal sued them without being a customer (or, if they are a customer, in a matter unrelated to their customer/vendor relationship). You can’t pick the venue where people/organizations that don’t have a contract with you sue you. Of course, the other question is then how to enforce the court order. Since Cloudflare has a German subsidiary, that won’t be a problem. Note also that the effect of this ruling is limited to the territory of Germany. Cloudflare doesn’t have to block this website anywhere else.
- _heimdall 3y ago
  Ah yep, that's what I was missing here before a cup of coffee. The plaintiff isn't a customer of Cloudflare so the ToC doesn't apply. Thanks!
  - personomas 3y ago
    Who is the plaintiff then? I can't find it, and why would they then sue in the first place?
    - _heimdall 3y ago
      Universal Music GmbH is the plaintiff I believe [1]. They're suing over copyright infringement [1] https://torrentfreak.com/cloudflare-ordered-to-block-pirate-music-site-following-universal-music-lawsuit-201016/ https://torrentfreak.com/cloudflare-ordered-to-block-pirate-...
- theshrike79 3y ago
  At this point it would be nice for Cloudflare DNS to stop resolving any and all Universal Music properties...
  - RandomBK 3y ago
    As much as we may like/hate the entities involved in this dispute, net neutrality is a serious topic and we shouldn't be encouraging actions like this.
Digory 3y ago
Germany didn't sign the contract, and it hosts the court. Universal Music didn't sign the contract, and it went to Germany's court. In the US, the contract terms would normally bind the _parties to the contract._ Contracts are sometimes called "private law," as opposed to "public law." But in some circumstances and places, the government just declares the contract or provision legally void. Then, even the parties to the contract can't rely on it.
freejazz 3y ago
>Are terms and conditions that specifically stipulate what local laws and courts preside over any legal actions useless? When they go against the law, yeah. You don't think it seems absurd for Cloudflare to do business worldwide but then insist it can only be reached in courts in California? That Cloudflare can just disavow compliance with German law because it says it likes California law?
jiveturkey 3y ago
How does GDPR get to be enforced on Cloudflare, or worldwide to anyone?

that_guy_iain 3y ago

It doesn't matter waht the terms and conditions are. This is German courts deciding what Cloudflare's legal liabilities are within Germany if they want to operate within Germany. Cloudflare either complies or is blocked within Germany. That happens Cloudflare loses lots of customers.

mdekkers 3y ago
> That happens Cloudflare loses lots of customers. A couple of PoPs perhaps, but a lot of customers?
- that_guy_iain 3y ago
  Easily thousands within a day of being blocked. Lots of companies use Cloudlfare and do business in Germany and can't afford to be blocked as it would literally cost them money to be blocked.
  - mdekkers 3y ago
    I use lots of services that are not based or have a presence in my current EU country though. Do Cloudflare even _have_ a German office and entity?
    - that_guy_iain 3y ago
      Doesn't matter for German courts to tell ISPs to block their IPs. German courts get to decide what is and is not allowed within their country and if they decide your service is illegal and block it, there isn't much you can do but try and go to the EU courts to have it overturned but that is very unlikely. But while you go through the process with the EU courts you're still blocked.
      - mdekkers 3y ago
        I do believe that Germany blocking CF endpoints would knock Germany even further back into the stone age, and would hurt Germany a lot more than it would hurt CF.
        that_guy_iain 3y ago
        A large amount of companies would drop CF like a brick. Nearly every company operating in Germany that uses CF would drop it, very few would be willing to say goodbye to money to keep CF. Any CTO affected who wouldn't drop them should be fired. A vendor should not be removing your ability to operate in markets. It would seriously hit CF's stock price as it would be a massive sign that there is a massive risk of other countries blocking it. And some competitor would pick up all the customers fleeing. CF is not the only game in town, switching to a competitor or just dropping it completely is often rather easy. Any CEO running CF or similar company willing to call the bluff of a country on something like this should be booted by the board. It would have a massive effect on CF long term while it would have a reasonably short term effect to Germany and German consumers. For example, every sale call would have people asking if their primary markets are at the risk of being blocked. That's a major objection to add. Make no mistake, being blocked in the 4th largest economy in the world is extremely bad for any company.
    - tzs 3y ago
      They currently have job listings for 12 roles in Munich, Germany which suggests that have an office there. They also have job listings for 6 remote roles in Germany, so even if they had no offices there that suggests they have employees there which would probably open them up to some German law.
  - immibis 3y ago
    They should sue the government for blocking them.
    - that_guy_iain 3y ago
      Sue the government for blocking a company that doesn't obey its laws? Sure you could take them to the EU court, but during that time you're still going to be blocked. And you would almost certainly lose there too since governments are allowed to set their own laws as long as they comply with EU laws.
Jamie9912 3y ago
What counts as "operating within Germany"? Does having a publically routable internet address count as operating within Germany?
- that_guy_iain 3y ago
  In the terms of Cloudflare and other internet companies providing digital services pretty much. They have lots of German customers too.
philwelch 3y ago
Germany has a Chinese-style firewall where they can just block parts of the Internet?
- that_guy_iain 3y ago
  Countries just tell ISPs they need to block ips. It's easy to bypass, see the pirate bay blocks.
- immibis 3y ago
  Even America has a Chinese-style firewall - it's called Cloudflare.

realityking 3y ago

ToS are a contracted. You can specify a legal venue as part of a contract (though that’s not always enforceable, especially in B2C relationships). However in this case, Universal sued them without being a customer (or, if they are a customer, in a matter unrelated to their customer/vendor relationship). You can’t pick the venue where people/organizations that don’t have a contract with you sue you. Of course, the other question is then how to enforce the court order. Since Cloudflare has a German subsidiary, that won’t be a problem. Note also that the effect of this ruling is limited to the territory of Germany. Cloudflare doesn’t have to block this website anywhere else.

_heimdall 3y ago
Ah yep, that's what I was missing here before a cup of coffee. The plaintiff isn't a customer of Cloudflare so the ToC doesn't apply. Thanks!
- personomas 3y ago
  Who is the plaintiff then? I can't find it, and why would they then sue in the first place?
  - _heimdall 3y ago
    Universal Music GmbH is the plaintiff I believe [1]. They're suing over copyright infringement [1] https://torrentfreak.com/cloudflare-ordered-to-block-pirate-music-site-following-universal-music-lawsuit-201016/ https://torrentfreak.com/cloudflare-ordered-to-block-pirate-...
theshrike79 3y ago
At this point it would be nice for Cloudflare DNS to stop resolving any and all Universal Music properties...
- RandomBK 3y ago
  As much as we may like/hate the entities involved in this dispute, net neutrality is a serious topic and we shouldn't be encouraging actions like this.

Digory 3y ago

Germany didn't sign the contract, and it hosts the court. Universal Music didn't sign the contract, and it went to Germany's court. In the US, the contract terms would normally bind the _parties to the contract._ Contracts are sometimes called "private law," as opposed to "public law." But in some circumstances and places, the government just declares the contract or provision legally void. Then, even the parties to the contract can't rely on it.

freejazz 3y ago

>Are terms and conditions that specifically stipulate what local laws and courts preside over any legal actions useless? When they go against the law, yeah. You don't think it seems absurd for Cloudflare to do business worldwide but then insist it can only be reached in courts in California? That Cloudflare can just disavow compliance with German law because it says it likes California law?

jiveturkey 3y ago

How does GDPR get to be enforced on Cloudflare, or worldwide to anyone?