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New Outlook is good, both for yourself and 766 third parties
- jruohonen 3y agoWith this much sharing, I'd reckon that a third life time award is coming. But I wonder whether the same sharing is going on for business users?
- quickthrower2 3y agoAccept! Then the next day send a right to be forgotten request.
- I_am_tiberius 3y agoIf they do it like Paul Graham with Hackernews, then they just remove the link between the person and the data.
- throwboatyface 3y agoUsing a different identifier isn't sufficient to satisfy a right to be forgotten request. The user's identity could still be inferred from comments, for instance.
- godelski 3y agoSo does that mean that if we request Dang will nuke our accounts (honest question, because it's something I've been thinking about. Maybe or maybe not write a Tell HN)
- andrewmcwatters 3y agoHe will not, I have asked. Instead, he does what throwboatyface has mentioned. It's bad form.
- I_am_tiberius 3y agoHe does not, that's the point. I think YC is not on the legal side regarding this topic.
- godelski 3y agoMaybe it is time to write that manifesto. I love the community but the environment has changed underneath us and faster that I, even someone in ML, expected.
- tzs 3y agoWhich law(s) do you think they are not on the legal side of? The most common law people cite for deletion rights is GDPR but I'm not sure GDPR applies. GDPR's territorial scope is defined in Article 3. For controllers or processors not "in the Union", which I think is the case for YC, GDPR applies if the processing activities are related to: "(a) the offering of goods or services, irrespective of whether a payment of the data subject is required, to such data subjects in the Union; or (b) the monitoring of their behaviour as far as their behaviour takes place within the Union." People in the Union can make HN accounts and post, but that doesn't mean that YC is offering goods or services to data subjects in the Union. Recital 23 of GDPR elaborates on offering goods or services (edited to split into two paragraphs to make it easier to read): > In order to determine whether such a controller or processor is offering goods or services to data subjects who are in the Union, it should be ascertained whether it is apparent that the controller or processor envisages offering services to data subjects in one or more Member States in the Union. > Whereas the mere accessibility of the controller’s, processor’s or an intermediary’s website in the Union, of an email address or of other contact details, or the use of a language generally used in the third country where the controller is established, is insufficient to ascertain such intention, factors such as the use of a language or a currency generally used in one or more Member States with the possibility of ordering goods and services in that other language, or the mentioning of customers or users who are in the Union, may make it apparent that the controller envisages offering goods or services to data subjects in the Union. I think YC could make a decent case that they do not envisage offering such services to people in the Union.
- 3y ago
- temp112123 3y agoAs an aside- If you ask nicely they'll edit/remove the PII from the comments.
- hammock 3y agoWhat do you mean by that?
- I_am_tiberius 3y agoIf you ask hackernews to delete your comment(s), they refuse to do so. Instead, they just set the username of the comment to deleted.
- I_Am_Nous 3y agoFrom what I have seen, the servers for hackernews are a bit delicate. At least when OpenAI does something stupid...if our usernames are a primary key ID a single update to remove the username is far less costly than actually dropping all the comments. Or they just want to have an archive for some background monetization scheme, anything is possible!
- junon 3y agoThis is such a different case I don't even know where to begin. Dang does an incredible job moderating the site.
- I_am_tiberius 3y agoThis has nothing to do with Dang. It's not the moderators who decide this - it's company policy, most likely defined by pg.
- saagarjha 3y agoYou can do an excellent job moderating this site while also choosing to not do something.
- johndhi 3y agoIt's hard for me to read the text on mobile. Is this a cookie notice (required by EU e-privacy directive), or is this a sub processors notice (required by GDPR)? Both would be insane. I don't see how they could possibly use that many vendors. Must also include all Microsoft subsidiaries?
- simongray 3y agoIt's GDPR.
- hammock 3y agoYou can pinch the screen and zoom in to make the image larger
- chrismorgan 3y agoI’m pretty sure it’s a forgery (though to what extent, I wot not), in part because of the mentioning of 766 third parties, but more because the entire thing seems significantly legally incoherent. It mixes elements of GDPR and ePD in technically nonsensical ways (e.g. “We […] process data to: store and/or access information on your device”).
- a-dub 3y ago[flagged]
- ggm 3y agoI had a time on a 13-00 phoneline today which said your call is important to us, you are "undefined number" caller on this queue and it made me very happy. I suspect 766 is "suspiciously accurate" and some of them are JV with Microsoft.
- bitwize 3y agoUnbelievable. You, [SUBJECT NAME HERE], must be the pride of [SUBJECT HOMETOWN HERE].
- ggm 3y agoImagine being the voice over artist having to say: "undefined number" "not a number" "floating point overflow" "the back-end ESS-QEW-ELL server has returned an error" "missing semicolon or comma on line [1,2,3,4,..... 1231,1232,1233...]"
- justinator 3y agoI wonder if anyone has done a mysql injection exploit via text to speak over an automated phone line. "Spell your name" "F-R-E-D-double-quote-semicolon-D-R-O-P-space-T..."
- userbinator 3y agoI'm certain that the majority of the time it's a TTS generating those lines. These days, probably something involving AI.
- zrezzed 3y agoIf you care about strongly about privacy... choose your email provider accordingly. If Outlook is your company's email provider... the third parties are the concern of your IT department. If you're not hit by one of those two conditions... why are you using Outlook? This feels like unwarranted outrage bait.
- bee_rider 3y agoWhere is the option to make sure nobody I email uses outlook?
- timbit42 3y agoCheck the X-Mailer header in their emails. It will say Outlook.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- artzmeister 3y agoRegardless of the reason, calling out such behaviour is always good, more so since many millions use outlook still.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- ParetoOptimal 3y ago> If Outlook is your company's email provider... the third parties are the concern of your IT department. Still your concern given whatever information is shared about you and your job to the 766 third parties.
- cferry 3y agoThis. There's a choice regarding data identifying you that's made by someone who's not you. I'm also thinking of 2FA things many corporations mandate, requiring the use of a phone number, application or both, without them handing you a work phone. Under no circumstances will I give my personal phone number to Google or Microsoft because I don't want them to link my work and personal stuff. Right now, I'm locked out of a corporate account at Google due to such refusal.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- yieldcrv 3y agowhen you optimize packet size and then add 766 analytics libraries
- yurrzz 3y agoNew Outlook is great /s https://old.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/13lo7u6/list_of_new_features_and_missing_features_in_the/ https://old.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/13lo7u6/list_of_n...
- kahirsch 3y agoWow.
- deafpolygon 3y agoI use the new Outlook, and I didn't use the majority of features on the old Outlook.
- bigDinosaur 3y agoMany of those features are basic UI ones, not really email specific. Anyway, Outlook's entire selling point is offering everything a mail client could. If all you care about is reading emails there was never really a good reason to use such a heavy desktop client. For many others that heavy desktop client was the entire point of having Outlook.
- g-b-r 3y agoIt's the sort of cookie notice (which also attempts to embed gdpr consents and notices) used by a lot of sites, I haven't checked who the vendor is but they began declaring the number of third parties a few days ago. I think I ran into it five times so far, three of which had a party count similarly around 700, and two above 2000. The counts maybe include the third parties to which the third parties relay data etc. I haven't checked if they've done it for some upcoming legal requirement or out of their own good heart (the legal requirement would in all likelihood be an nth draft of the ever "upcoming" ePrivacy regulation). Fairly eye-opening in any case.
- AraceliHarker 3y agoAfter Windows 10, Microsoft's policy seems to be "I will give you free updates, but in return, you will be a Windows tester, watch ads, and provide your privacy."
- tomComb 3y agoAfter paying for windows - that’s the part that really makes it sting.
- userbinator 3y agoAs usual, Pirates of the LTSC have a better experience.
- blkhawk 3y agoA friendly reminder that legally even if you buy Windows using a pirated copy is the same offense as pirating it without buying that other version in the first place. Sooo don't waste money if you decide to pirate LTSC :) Wine on linux is really nice these days BTW.
- 3dGrabber 3y agoThe End Game is to make Windows “Cloud Only” [1] Then they will have the users by their balls. Charge money for every click. Insert ads where they see fit. Dynamically adjust prices to squeeze the max amount of money. Time for quarterly reports? “Sorry our Excel servers are under ‘heavy load’, Excel now costs 4x the usual hourly rate…” [1] https://www.techradar.com/news/could-windows-12-become-microsofts-first-cloud-based-operating-system https://www.techradar.com/news/could-windows-12-become-micro...
- b6z 3y agoThat sounds too negative. How about that: "The prize-winning Excel service is in high demand right now. We apologize for any delay this might cause. Do you want to become an 'Excel Prime Plus User' with preferential treatment? Just upgrade your subscription now and increase your productivity!"
- withinrafael 3y agoMicrosoft replaced the old Mail app in favor of the new Outlook Desktop app, and I can't even login despite reporting the issue for a year now. (At the time, I was even a Microsoft MVP getting briefed on the stuff way before launch.) That got me to finally stop using Outlook for good. Users beware.
- ddingus 3y agoI dislike it. No data file support is a big deal.
- firekvz 3y agothe funny thing about outlook is not even mentioned here, it seems that they have absolutely no spam filter? I get more spam (and the stupid obvious one, like 2004 phishing methods) into my outlook inbox than into my gmail throwaway email intentionally created to receive spam and crap signups, it just baffles me
- BenjiWiebe 3y agoThey definitely have anti spam. It's great at triggering on emails from a self hosted email server. I've been maintaining one for a few years and have pretty good deliverability. 95% of the time when there's an issue it's Outlook/Hotmail marking me as spam. And no I don't do email marketing or newsletters.
- octacat 3y agoYeah, love all the innovation and competition in the mail clients nowadays. You sell your data to big companies or you get spam blocked by these companies, if you self host. Why google would invent better email sender validation procedures and encryption, if the current system works pretty well for them.
- PawgerZ 3y agoWe use outlook for work. The only emails that go to my spam are new sales appointments from Salesforce. Just the most important, time-sensitive emails that I recieve. No matter how much I mess with the settings nor how many I flag as not spam, Microsoft is adamant that it's spam.
- tatersolid 3y agoSalesforce meeting requests are spam. I get several dozen unsolicited first-contact meeting requests per week from sales weasels at companies I’ve never done business with. Most have salesforce or pardot references in the headers. A CRM system has no business sending these out to leads who’ve never consented and are simply imported from Zoominfo or whatever. I’m glad MSFT finally started spam-binning them.
- FrostKiwi 3y ago> Features removed [...] PST file support No way! That kills of so many long term inboxes I know of. Over a decade of customer conversations in there in some cases. This will kick off a painful set of IT department phone calls and an even more painful migration if needed
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- tinus_hn 3y agoOn the other hand I can’t wait for PST files to disappear, along with their syncing, backup and migration problems. Would have been nice if they had one version of Outlook in between though that didn’t automatically create these deprecated files (looking at you, autoarchive). Also good riddance: Word, the shitty html editor/viewer.
- I_Am_Nous 3y agoI used to use Evolution until MAPI was removed, then Thunderbird+Exquilla for a bit, but now Thunderbird+IMAP is the sensible way to go. I make all my email rules server-side using OWA, and Thunderbird has had most of the OAUTH2 growing pains sorted out for a while now. We use Teams, which handles all the calendar stuff I used to need my mail client to do for me. The only risk seems to be Microsoft silently changing something and Thunderbird being left to figure out what to fix. I no longer need to access proprietary Public Folders, as that functionality has been swallowed up by Sharepoint Online. I've used Linux at work for the past decade, in spite of it being a Microsoft shop -- some days I would wrestle with HyperV or whatever ricketysticks thing Microsoft bolted on top of HyperV, some other rare days I'd get to play in the terminal all day. I could tolerate using Windows if I was forced to. But I absolutely love using Linux. Who even needs Outlook specifically these days?
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- cglong 3y agoAs someone considering switching to Linux for work, why not use OWA always? It's a full PWA, so you can access your data offline, and it's flowing through Exchange anyway.
- jmmv 3y agoOne reason is because OWA is really slow on not-great hardware...
- vanous 3y agoOne reason is good extension support, for example for fast keyboard navigation and mail moving in TB... https://addons.thunderbird.net/en-US/thunderbird/addon/nostalgy_ng/ https://addons.thunderbird.net/en-US/thunderbird/addon/nosta...
- I_Am_Nous 3y agoOWA is fine for quick emails, usually, but I like old fashioned stuff like being able to view my message headers. Also, I use Firefox instead of Chrome so I don't get the PWA benefits. It's gonna suck when Microsoft finally kills connectivity or login support for the Teams for Linux Electron app lol
- lnxg33k1 3y agoThese market forces really are great, they really made Microsoft to stop abusing dominant positions to get advantage in other segments, stop showing ads, etc. hooray for deregulation and innovation
- eastbound 3y agoMarket forces are great. Everyone for whom it was important spent the extra money and went to macOS. Don’t remember seeing Candy Crush in my start menu on macOS for one decade, and I distinctly remember the quality of browsing (no obnoxious popups, no Askbar, not having to download software like 7zip or Notepad++ from dodgy websites) was my argument back then. Maybe it’s not so important to you that you’d spend the extra money.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- RagnarD 3y agoDo yourself a favor and use eM Client instead. It works extremely well, including playing nicely with Exchange. It was the only Window client I found that could completely replace Outlook. https://www.emclient.com/ https://www.emclient.com/
- xattt 3y agoShhhh, if too many people start using it, Microsoft will do something to put it out to pasture.
- addandsubtract 3y agoDoes it unfuck the obfuscated links that Outlook/Microsoft creates?
- MrDrMcCoy 3y agoBummer that they don't support Linux.
- deafpolygon 3y agoJesus christ on a motorbike. Makes me want to switch away - why do they do this?
- freeAgent 3y agoThe “new Outlook” is just a cover for MS to have complete, ongoing access to all email services a person uses. It’s a massive invasion of privacy. Their “email client” is a misnomer. The actual client becomes the MS “cloud,” and it retrieves and processes 100% of your mail, even storing your credentials. Outlook no longer makes any connection to your actual email provider. https://www.xda-developers.com/privacy-implications-new-microsoft-outlook/ https://www.xda-developers.com/privacy-implications-new-micr...
- ilrwbwrkhv 3y agoLow quality software with poor quality management sharing data with myriad other parties showing you ads and spamming you all the time. Yuck.
- butz 3y agoI think websites started competing who can round up most third parties. At least finally "Reject all" button is not hidden and is prominently displayed.
- egberts1 3y agoThe 3rd part of e-mail will simply fail in the Microsoft strategy of Embrace, Engulf, and Extinguish. Bucking against the many IETF RFCs on SMTP is hard to do.