4 ms·

This has gotta be one of my favorite parts of HN, it's an odd glimpse into how men view the world. You've got it backwards. In both cases what makes it harassm

by Spivak 3y ago

This has gotta be one of my favorite parts of HN, it's an odd glimpse into how men view the world. You've got it backwards. In both cases what makes it harassment is continuing to push when it's unwanted. Why you seem to see a difference in results based on attractiveness is because your average guy can't take a hint no matter how attractive they are. So "success" becomes literally stochastic because guys never back off (and bonus take being unresponsive, ignoring them, or outright telling them no as "playing hard to get") so it only works when coincidentally the feeling of attraction is mutual which is sorta related to conventional physical attractiveness but not as 1-1 as it's made out here. 95% of the time I don't want even the hot guy approaching me and even 1/20 feels high. I kinda wish it worked like Brazilian steakhouse rules where I could wear something that signaled, "open to being hit on by strangers."

Jensson 3y ago
What you said there is exactly what they mean though. Hot guys acting like assholes and not asking typically doesn't get issues due to the effects you talked about.
- Spivak 3y ago
  I think typically is doing some heavy lifting that simply isn't true. But even if it was surely this isn't what you want to aspire to, right? Get hot enough that you can disregard women's signals because it accidentally works out for you marginally more often seems a lot harder than... ya know not doing that. I swear the guys that just start dancing on me would do far far better if they just asked first. It goes from "oh god ew how do I discretely get one of my girlfriends to get me out of here" to "eh ya know what, sure."
  - Jensson 3y ago
    > But even if it was surely this isn't what you want to aspire to, right? Yes, most guys don't want to be assholes which is why they talk about this. You might notice that when you are out dancing most guys on the floor aren't grinding their crotch against you. The people who are fine with being assholes aren't complaining, you wont find them in these discussions. > I swear the guys that just start dancing on me would do far far better if they just asked first. It goes from "oh god ew how do I discretely get one of my girlfriends to get me out of here" to "eh ya know what, sure." The guys who do that don't want to dance with you, they want to sleep with you. Asking for a dance will probably get them girls who wants to dance and not go further, you instantly rejecting them is what they want. "But if they danced and did some more work then maybe..." But they don't want to go through that, that is the entire point they want to skip the work to build a connection and just do a one-night stand.
skocznymroczny 3y ago
I don't think so. There is a growing movement on places like Instagram and Tiktok, currently it's mostly played as a joke but there are woman complaining about how they said to a guy "No" and he backed off instead of trying again. Many women want to play hard to get and want a guy to try multiple times. The problem is if an attractive guy does it then he "is confident and really wants her", but if unattractive guy does it he's a "creep who can't take a hint".
- zozbot234 3y ago
  You can play this to your benefit, though. If you back off confidently enough, it creates ambiguity making it look like you've got no time for "hard-to-get" games. Which is good for you if everyone else is stuck in the "won't take no for an answer, must try again" status quo.
- orwin 3y ago
  What? I think it's fake women saying that. My sister was raped by her boss, so maybe she is more sensitive, but she box and spend 6 hours a week at the gym (10 hours total if you count boxing), and truly attractive males hit on her daily. Any guy who hit on her without being prompted, even the 'cute' ones (which is, to be fair, a big part of gym goers), get on her 'red flag' list, that she share with her gym and box friends. Maybe when she was younger she might have thought that. My personal experience (which was until recently limited to feminist hippies living in vans/tents and playing guitar around a fire tbh) is the same. Just have normal conversation, a bit of small talk, listen and pay attention, flirt a bit, only show off if it doesn't break the rhythm of the moment (better yet, don't show off at all), ask for a date without saying it's a date. If it's no, it's no. Doesn't mean you can't flirt anymore, flirting is always fun (and if it's not for you, think about that: more practice!).
  - zozbot234 3y ago
    > Just have normal conversation, a bit of small talk, listen and pay attention, flirt a bit, only show off if it doesn't break the rhythm of the moment (better yet, don't show off at all), ask for a date without saying it's a date. It's really hard to do this well and not be boring however. You have to do all those things and also subtly telegraph that you're somehow attracted to them and don't just want to have "a normal conversation" - mostly by 'showing off' subtly enough, not looking like you're blatantly showing off. It can be done, but plenty of guys are going to try and fail. I do suppose it's better to look excessively boring and inoffensive than to end up on their "red flag, animal, unsafe to be around. Must be avoided" list.
francisofascii 3y ago
I agree that men should be better at taking a hint, but I think there are a few reasons why men continually push, which mostly boils down to survivorship bias. First, you have plenty of pop culture movies where the guy strikes out time after time, but then eventually is able to win the heart of the girl. There is also the family stories of how "grandpa" kept asking "grandma" out and she finally said yes. A guy who never tries will never win, so you have to try to have any hope of winning. At this point is it baked into men's genetic code for survival.
gedy 3y ago
> In both cases what makes it harassment is continuing to push when it's unwanted I worked at a place that had lots of young people and HR's definition included even a single time, and intent does not matter, perception does. They would also punish without letting the person know who/when/where they were accused by. This was not theoretical CYA policy, I saw one guy fired and another lose promotion and both swore they did not know why.
- zozbot234 3y ago
  A workplace is a very special setting though. Your coworkers are people you have to be around day in and day out, and to mix any kind of romantic pursuit with that is just asking for trouble. Especially in this day and age when "perception" can easily shade into outright paranoid attitudes.
- itishappy 3y ago
  That should be standard HR policy everywhere. There is no appropriate way to hit on coworkers. It's unprofessional at best and a company-ending liability at worst. HR's job is to protect the company from both.
foobarchu 3y ago
> I kinda wish it worked like Brazilian steakhouse rules where I could wear something that signaled, "open to being hit on by strangers." The "pear ring" is trying to make this happen but it hasn't really caught on much.
- Spivak 3y ago
  This is great. No idea why it's some weird product when the whole value is teal silicone ring for straight, light purple silicone ring for not straight which you can get same day shipping on Amazon but if they manage to get it to catch on guess I don't care about the means.

by Spivak 3y ago

Jensson 3y ago

What you said there is exactly what they mean though. Hot guys acting like assholes and not asking typically doesn't get issues due to the effects you talked about.

Spivak 3y ago
I think typically is doing some heavy lifting that simply isn't true. But even if it was surely this isn't what you want to aspire to, right? Get hot enough that you can disregard women's signals because it accidentally works out for you marginally more often seems a lot harder than... ya know not doing that. I swear the guys that just start dancing on me would do far far better if they just asked first. It goes from "oh god ew how do I discretely get one of my girlfriends to get me out of here" to "eh ya know what, sure."
- Jensson 3y ago
  > But even if it was surely this isn't what you want to aspire to, right? Yes, most guys don't want to be assholes which is why they talk about this. You might notice that when you are out dancing most guys on the floor aren't grinding their crotch against you. The people who are fine with being assholes aren't complaining, you wont find them in these discussions. > I swear the guys that just start dancing on me would do far far better if they just asked first. It goes from "oh god ew how do I discretely get one of my girlfriends to get me out of here" to "eh ya know what, sure." The guys who do that don't want to dance with you, they want to sleep with you. Asking for a dance will probably get them girls who wants to dance and not go further, you instantly rejecting them is what they want. "But if they danced and did some more work then maybe..." But they don't want to go through that, that is the entire point they want to skip the work to build a connection and just do a one-night stand.

skocznymroczny 3y ago

I don't think so. There is a growing movement on places like Instagram and Tiktok, currently it's mostly played as a joke but there are woman complaining about how they said to a guy "No" and he backed off instead of trying again. Many women want to play hard to get and want a guy to try multiple times. The problem is if an attractive guy does it then he "is confident and really wants her", but if unattractive guy does it he's a "creep who can't take a hint".

zozbot234 3y ago
You can play this to your benefit, though. If you back off confidently enough, it creates ambiguity making it look like you've got no time for "hard-to-get" games. Which is good for you if everyone else is stuck in the "won't take no for an answer, must try again" status quo.
orwin 3y ago
What? I think it's fake women saying that. My sister was raped by her boss, so maybe she is more sensitive, but she box and spend 6 hours a week at the gym (10 hours total if you count boxing), and truly attractive males hit on her daily. Any guy who hit on her without being prompted, even the 'cute' ones (which is, to be fair, a big part of gym goers), get on her 'red flag' list, that she share with her gym and box friends. Maybe when she was younger she might have thought that. My personal experience (which was until recently limited to feminist hippies living in vans/tents and playing guitar around a fire tbh) is the same. Just have normal conversation, a bit of small talk, listen and pay attention, flirt a bit, only show off if it doesn't break the rhythm of the moment (better yet, don't show off at all), ask for a date without saying it's a date. If it's no, it's no. Doesn't mean you can't flirt anymore, flirting is always fun (and if it's not for you, think about that: more practice!).
- zozbot234 3y ago
  > Just have normal conversation, a bit of small talk, listen and pay attention, flirt a bit, only show off if it doesn't break the rhythm of the moment (better yet, don't show off at all), ask for a date without saying it's a date. It's really hard to do this well and not be boring however. You have to do all those things and also subtly telegraph that you're somehow attracted to them and don't just want to have "a normal conversation" - mostly by 'showing off' subtly enough, not looking like you're blatantly showing off. It can be done, but plenty of guys are going to try and fail. I do suppose it's better to look excessively boring and inoffensive than to end up on their "red flag, animal, unsafe to be around. Must be avoided" list.

francisofascii 3y ago

I agree that men should be better at taking a hint, but I think there are a few reasons why men continually push, which mostly boils down to survivorship bias. First, you have plenty of pop culture movies where the guy strikes out time after time, but then eventually is able to win the heart of the girl. There is also the family stories of how "grandpa" kept asking "grandma" out and she finally said yes. A guy who never tries will never win, so you have to try to have any hope of winning. At this point is it baked into men's genetic code for survival.

gedy 3y ago

> In both cases what makes it harassment is continuing to push when it's unwanted I worked at a place that had lots of young people and HR's definition included even a single time, and intent does not matter, perception does. They would also punish without letting the person know who/when/where they were accused by. This was not theoretical CYA policy, I saw one guy fired and another lose promotion and both swore they did not know why.

zozbot234 3y ago
A workplace is a very special setting though. Your coworkers are people you have to be around day in and day out, and to mix any kind of romantic pursuit with that is just asking for trouble. Especially in this day and age when "perception" can easily shade into outright paranoid attitudes.
itishappy 3y ago
That should be standard HR policy everywhere. There is no appropriate way to hit on coworkers. It's unprofessional at best and a company-ending liability at worst. HR's job is to protect the company from both.

foobarchu 3y ago

> I kinda wish it worked like Brazilian steakhouse rules where I could wear something that signaled, "open to being hit on by strangers." The "pear ring" is trying to make this happen but it hasn't really caught on much.

Spivak 3y ago
This is great. No idea why it's some weird product when the whole value is teal silicone ring for straight, light purple silicone ring for not straight which you can get same day shipping on Amazon but if they manage to get it to catch on guess I don't care about the means.