6 ms·

There's a saying (which could be specific to my country) about men approaching women. If you're handsome it's called flirting, if you're ugly it's sexual harass

There's a saying (which could be specific to my country) about men approaching women. If you're handsome it's called flirting, if you're ugly it's sexual harassment. Joking aside, I do notice that successful men (again, maybe specific to my country) tend to be attractive and they usually have an attractive and smart partner. Successful but not attractive men can still have either attractive or smart partner (or both, but different persons, and the former is a trophy—and the latter doesn't know about the former).

Damogran6 3y ago
I got SO many downvotes on Reddit for suggesting that.
- Pigalowda 3y ago
  Are there real people on Reddit on anymore? I’m not sure how the hell they’re going to IPO. The app is horrible and the users are too.
  - andersa 3y ago
    > The app is horrible and the users are too. Good thing none of this matters as long as the number goes up!
  - fullshark 3y ago
    They are going to IPO cause capital has no other ideas about where to put their money and they will show a line going up and to the right in terms of user base.
- brodouevencode 3y ago
  Much of reddit is incapable of generalized or abstract thought, especially when done in humor.
  - YiraldyGuber 3y ago
    So you're saying that all reddit users are incapable of dealing with generalisations!? This has been debunked by science experts. It's called reading a book.
    - Damogran6 3y ago
      You sound like a redditor. /s
  - politelemon 3y ago
    Everyone is stupid except me.
- orwin 3y ago
  Maybe there is more women and socially competent humans in general on reddit?
Obscurity4340 3y ago
How did that work with Donnie and Ivana :/ ?
- sidlls 3y ago
  I think you're engaging in a bit of humor, here, but Trump was born at the top of the socioeconomic ladder. There's nowhere for him to go but down. I don't think this study applies to people like him.
  - Obscurity4340 3y ago
    What is Trump's main pathology as it relates to his wealth? There's always this conjecture that he was like Nouveau Riche and wanted so bad to be accepted in line with the Old Rich? Why does he care so much, did Fred beat it into him that they needed to assimilate or why's it such a huge fucking deal to him?
  - Obscurity4340 3y ago
    Was he actually ever considered attractive when he got "on the scene", so to speak?
    - paul7986 3y ago
      If you ever found his daughter Ivana attractive well then she came from ...
      - codeTired 3y ago
        You mix an average male with an attractive model and something decent may come out. Plus she could afford surgeries.
        paul7986 3y ago
        Outside of ones feelings for Trump ...Ivana holds the standard of beauty. Those who loathe him prior to their dislike of him ..those ppl and the majority of them thought the same about her looks. That she is natural beauty even prior to any plastic surgery. Attractiveness runs in Trumps family. He afterall was the Paris Hilton / Kardashians of the 80s and early 90s. Those types of socialites have beauty and wealth and society loves to follow them because of it.
jasode 3y ago
>There's a saying (which could be specific to my country) about men approaching women. If you're handsome it's called flirting, if you're ugly it's sexual harassment. There's a famous comic meme about your distinction that's regularly reposted on the internet: https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/663/485/1f8.jpg https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/663/485/1f8... But many women have commented that they find the "attractive" guy's compliments also unwanted.
- dgfitz 3y ago
  Selection bias? Most of the women who _commented_ feel that way, in the same way that 70-95% of people who read reddit/hn/whatever only lurk. Vocal minority maybe.
- hnbad 3y ago
  There are also other factors. Attractiveness not only depends on physiognomy but also skincare, hygiene, dress and even medical interventions (e.g. orthodontics) which are often tied to wealth and especially childhood wealth. Childhood eating disorders and childhood obesity/malnutrition for example are hard to overcome as an adult and more common in poorer families. So attractiveness already is in part an indicator of wealth (at least on aggregate if not for every individual). It's well-known and widely established that coming from wealth makes it easier to get with "gentlemen crimes" (e.g. being caught drinking underage or using illegal drugs is more likely to result in confiscation and a stern warning or "slap on the wrist" if the police officer knows you're from a wealthy family, other biases aside) as well as sexual assault. So the difference between the two can simply be that the "handsome" guy in a suit is just more likely to "get away with it" because it's riskier to confront or report him compared to the "ugly" guy who is likely on a lower rung of the social hierarchy.
- benterix 3y ago
  To be completely frank, this applies to both sexes. As a man it feels nice to be complimented by attractive women but when I face the same attention from women I don't consider attractive and just prefer to have normal work relations with, I feel very awkward. I don't want to sound rude and hurt them, but sometimes when you don't react they take it as an approval to go further. But most of the time just dry "thank you" and moving on to the next topic solves it.
Thror8384 3y ago
[flagged]
Spivak 3y ago
This has gotta be one of my favorite parts of HN, it's an odd glimpse into how men view the world. You've got it backwards. In both cases what makes it harassment is continuing to push when it's unwanted. Why you seem to see a difference in results based on attractiveness is because your average guy can't take a hint no matter how attractive they are. So "success" becomes literally stochastic because guys never back off (and bonus take being unresponsive, ignoring them, or outright telling them no as "playing hard to get") so it only works when coincidentally the feeling of attraction is mutual which is sorta related to conventional physical attractiveness but not as 1-1 as it's made out here. 95% of the time I don't want even the hot guy approaching me and even 1/20 feels high. I kinda wish it worked like Brazilian steakhouse rules where I could wear something that signaled, "open to being hit on by strangers."
- Jensson 3y ago
  What you said there is exactly what they mean though. Hot guys acting like assholes and not asking typically doesn't get issues due to the effects you talked about.
  - Spivak 3y ago
    I think typically is doing some heavy lifting that simply isn't true. But even if it was surely this isn't what you want to aspire to, right? Get hot enough that you can disregard women's signals because it accidentally works out for you marginally more often seems a lot harder than... ya know not doing that. I swear the guys that just start dancing on me would do far far better if they just asked first. It goes from "oh god ew how do I discretely get one of my girlfriends to get me out of here" to "eh ya know what, sure."
    - Jensson 3y ago
      > But even if it was surely this isn't what you want to aspire to, right? Yes, most guys don't want to be assholes which is why they talk about this. You might notice that when you are out dancing most guys on the floor aren't grinding their crotch against you. The people who are fine with being assholes aren't complaining, you wont find them in these discussions. > I swear the guys that just start dancing on me would do far far better if they just asked first. It goes from "oh god ew how do I discretely get one of my girlfriends to get me out of here" to "eh ya know what, sure." The guys who do that don't want to dance with you, they want to sleep with you. Asking for a dance will probably get them girls who wants to dance and not go further, you instantly rejecting them is what they want. "But if they danced and did some more work then maybe..." But they don't want to go through that, that is the entire point they want to skip the work to build a connection and just do a one-night stand.
lukev 3y ago
This notion (step 1: be attractive, step 2: don't be unattractive) comes up a lot in male-dominated online spaces. It's a fallacy, and actually a self defeating one since it causes guys to ascribe their failures to something out of their control (looks) instead of what is actually in their control (behavior.) Here's a pretty good deconstruction of the concept IMO: https://www.doctornerdlove.com/understanding-the-hot-creepy-matrix/ https://www.doctornerdlove.com/understanding-the-hot-creepy-...
- JamesBarney 3y ago
  The article is more a takedown of the strawman "hot guys can't be creepy". It seems obviously true that certain behaviors are hot if they're performed when there is mutual interest and creepy when there isn't any. And being hot has a huge impact on whether or not there is mutual interest. In addition hot people are just given more latitude than ugly people in terms of social faux pas.
  - lukev 3y ago
    > In addition hot people are just given more latitude than ugly people in terms of social faux pas. No no, that's exactly the point. If an advance is welcome, it's wasn't a faux pas. If it's not welcome, it's a faux pas. This is true regardless of hotness level. Are hot people more likely to be welcome to a larger set of people? Sure, that's nearly tautological. But the expected behavior is the same: be sensitive to context, read signals, don't violate boundaries. Hot people and ugly people can both do this (or not.) Hot people are more likely to find people that are into them. But nobody owes or is owed anything regardless of attraction level, and it's every guy's responsibility not to act like a creep.
orwin 3y ago
Any guy who hit on my sister without being prompted, even the 'cute' ones (which is, to be fair, a big part of gym goers), get on her 'red flag' list, that she share with her gym and box friends. I think it's typically wishful thinking. Just act like a normal human being, it's often enough, even if you're ugly. I've been fat from 24 to 29 years old, and obese from 26 to 28. I did not have any sex during that time (my libido was quite low tbh), but I did have a few date, maybe half a dozen?, despite being quite ugly (23 to 27 especially, I didn't took care of myself at all). I assure you I wasn't attractive. But I was a normal human being who could listen and find cues before asking someone out.
JamesBarney 3y ago
Creeps are mostly people who aren't socially aware or don't care. And another side to this discussion is that if you hit on someone substantially more attractive than you, you're already signaling that you aren't very socially aware or don't care i.e. a creep.

Damogran6 3y ago

I got SO many downvotes on Reddit for suggesting that.

Pigalowda 3y ago
Are there real people on Reddit on anymore? I’m not sure how the hell they’re going to IPO. The app is horrible and the users are too.
- andersa 3y ago
  > The app is horrible and the users are too. Good thing none of this matters as long as the number goes up!
- fullshark 3y ago
  They are going to IPO cause capital has no other ideas about where to put their money and they will show a line going up and to the right in terms of user base.
brodouevencode 3y ago
Much of reddit is incapable of generalized or abstract thought, especially when done in humor.
- YiraldyGuber 3y ago
  So you're saying that all reddit users are incapable of dealing with generalisations!? This has been debunked by science experts. It's called reading a book.
  - Damogran6 3y ago
    You sound like a redditor. /s
- politelemon 3y ago
  Everyone is stupid except me.
orwin 3y ago
Maybe there is more women and socially competent humans in general on reddit?

Obscurity4340 3y ago

How did that work with Donnie and Ivana :/ ?

sidlls 3y ago
I think you're engaging in a bit of humor, here, but Trump was born at the top of the socioeconomic ladder. There's nowhere for him to go but down. I don't think this study applies to people like him.
- Obscurity4340 3y ago
  What is Trump's main pathology as it relates to his wealth? There's always this conjecture that he was like Nouveau Riche and wanted so bad to be accepted in line with the Old Rich? Why does he care so much, did Fred beat it into him that they needed to assimilate or why's it such a huge fucking deal to him?
- Obscurity4340 3y ago
  Was he actually ever considered attractive when he got "on the scene", so to speak?
  - paul7986 3y ago
    If you ever found his daughter Ivana attractive well then she came from ...
    - codeTired 3y ago
      You mix an average male with an attractive model and something decent may come out. Plus she could afford surgeries.
      - paul7986 3y ago
        Outside of ones feelings for Trump ...Ivana holds the standard of beauty. Those who loathe him prior to their dislike of him ..those ppl and the majority of them thought the same about her looks. That she is natural beauty even prior to any plastic surgery. Attractiveness runs in Trumps family. He afterall was the Paris Hilton / Kardashians of the 80s and early 90s. Those types of socialites have beauty and wealth and society loves to follow them because of it.

jasode 3y ago

>There's a saying (which could be specific to my country) about men approaching women. If you're handsome it's called flirting, if you're ugly it's sexual harassment. There's a famous comic meme about your distinction that's regularly reposted on the internet: https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/663/485/1f8.jpg https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/663/485/1f8... But many women have commented that they find the "attractive" guy's compliments also unwanted.

dgfitz 3y ago
Selection bias? Most of the women who _commented_ feel that way, in the same way that 70-95% of people who read reddit/hn/whatever only lurk. Vocal minority maybe.
hnbad 3y ago
There are also other factors. Attractiveness not only depends on physiognomy but also skincare, hygiene, dress and even medical interventions (e.g. orthodontics) which are often tied to wealth and especially childhood wealth. Childhood eating disorders and childhood obesity/malnutrition for example are hard to overcome as an adult and more common in poorer families. So attractiveness already is in part an indicator of wealth (at least on aggregate if not for every individual). It's well-known and widely established that coming from wealth makes it easier to get with "gentlemen crimes" (e.g. being caught drinking underage or using illegal drugs is more likely to result in confiscation and a stern warning or "slap on the wrist" if the police officer knows you're from a wealthy family, other biases aside) as well as sexual assault. So the difference between the two can simply be that the "handsome" guy in a suit is just more likely to "get away with it" because it's riskier to confront or report him compared to the "ugly" guy who is likely on a lower rung of the social hierarchy.
benterix 3y ago
To be completely frank, this applies to both sexes. As a man it feels nice to be complimented by attractive women but when I face the same attention from women I don't consider attractive and just prefer to have normal work relations with, I feel very awkward. I don't want to sound rude and hurt them, but sometimes when you don't react they take it as an approval to go further. But most of the time just dry "thank you" and moving on to the next topic solves it.

Thror8384 3y ago

[flagged]

Spivak 3y ago

This has gotta be one of my favorite parts of HN, it's an odd glimpse into how men view the world. You've got it backwards. In both cases what makes it harassment is continuing to push when it's unwanted. Why you seem to see a difference in results based on attractiveness is because your average guy can't take a hint no matter how attractive they are. So "success" becomes literally stochastic because guys never back off (and bonus take being unresponsive, ignoring them, or outright telling them no as "playing hard to get") so it only works when coincidentally the feeling of attraction is mutual which is sorta related to conventional physical attractiveness but not as 1-1 as it's made out here. 95% of the time I don't want even the hot guy approaching me and even 1/20 feels high. I kinda wish it worked like Brazilian steakhouse rules where I could wear something that signaled, "open to being hit on by strangers."

Jensson 3y ago
What you said there is exactly what they mean though. Hot guys acting like assholes and not asking typically doesn't get issues due to the effects you talked about.
- Spivak 3y ago
  I think typically is doing some heavy lifting that simply isn't true. But even if it was surely this isn't what you want to aspire to, right? Get hot enough that you can disregard women's signals because it accidentally works out for you marginally more often seems a lot harder than... ya know not doing that. I swear the guys that just start dancing on me would do far far better if they just asked first. It goes from "oh god ew how do I discretely get one of my girlfriends to get me out of here" to "eh ya know what, sure."
  - Jensson 3y ago
    > But even if it was surely this isn't what you want to aspire to, right? Yes, most guys don't want to be assholes which is why they talk about this. You might notice that when you are out dancing most guys on the floor aren't grinding their crotch against you. The people who are fine with being assholes aren't complaining, you wont find them in these discussions. > I swear the guys that just start dancing on me would do far far better if they just asked first. It goes from "oh god ew how do I discretely get one of my girlfriends to get me out of here" to "eh ya know what, sure." The guys who do that don't want to dance with you, they want to sleep with you. Asking for a dance will probably get them girls who wants to dance and not go further, you instantly rejecting them is what they want. "But if they danced and did some more work then maybe..." But they don't want to go through that, that is the entire point they want to skip the work to build a connection and just do a one-night stand.

lukev 3y ago

This notion (step 1: be attractive, step 2: don't be unattractive) comes up a lot in male-dominated online spaces. It's a fallacy, and actually a self defeating one since it causes guys to ascribe their failures to something out of their control (looks) instead of what is actually in their control (behavior.) Here's a pretty good deconstruction of the concept IMO: https://www.doctornerdlove.com/understanding-the-hot-creepy-matrix/ https://www.doctornerdlove.com/understanding-the-hot-creepy-...

JamesBarney 3y ago
The article is more a takedown of the strawman "hot guys can't be creepy". It seems obviously true that certain behaviors are hot if they're performed when there is mutual interest and creepy when there isn't any. And being hot has a huge impact on whether or not there is mutual interest. In addition hot people are just given more latitude than ugly people in terms of social faux pas.
- lukev 3y ago
  > In addition hot people are just given more latitude than ugly people in terms of social faux pas. No no, that's exactly the point. If an advance is welcome, it's wasn't a faux pas. If it's not welcome, it's a faux pas. This is true regardless of hotness level. Are hot people more likely to be welcome to a larger set of people? Sure, that's nearly tautological. But the expected behavior is the same: be sensitive to context, read signals, don't violate boundaries. Hot people and ugly people can both do this (or not.) Hot people are more likely to find people that are into them. But nobody owes or is owed anything regardless of attraction level, and it's every guy's responsibility not to act like a creep.

orwin 3y ago

Any guy who hit on my sister without being prompted, even the 'cute' ones (which is, to be fair, a big part of gym goers), get on her 'red flag' list, that she share with her gym and box friends. I think it's typically wishful thinking. Just act like a normal human being, it's often enough, even if you're ugly. I've been fat from 24 to 29 years old, and obese from 26 to 28. I did not have any sex during that time (my libido was quite low tbh), but I did have a few date, maybe half a dozen?, despite being quite ugly (23 to 27 especially, I didn't took care of myself at all). I assure you I wasn't attractive. But I was a normal human being who could listen and find cues before asking someone out.

JamesBarney 3y ago

Creeps are mostly people who aren't socially aware or don't care. And another side to this discussion is that if you hit on someone substantially more attractive than you, you're already signaling that you aren't very socially aware or don't care i.e. a creep.